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Thread: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

  1. #1
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    6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Morning all,

    Per title I am trying to improve my use of 6011. Particulars:

    6011 1/8
    DCEP
    75 v ocv
    110 A
    Thick stock, 1/4Ē or more.

    I am working a project and ran 6011 for deeper penetration. I find that I long arc on start to get the initial toe wetter up properly. But once I get going it seems like I get pile up on the start. Then since the work is cooking pretty hot, I can only hold for a while on the end to try to fill the crater. I also use whip and pause to dig in the weld. In the end, I am confident I am getting good fusion but it is not a very smooth or uniform weld. Perhaps someone can offer tips to improve. Iíll load a pic next.


    Thank you.

    Regards.

  2. #2
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Couple of picks. This is a faceplate I am making for a wood lathe. The nut is 3/4 16 for reference. To control warping, I started and stopped on opposite facets. In the end, it bowed slightly but there is only 0.005 runout. Fine for wood.

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  3. #3
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Look normal. Might want to practice welding more non-stop rather than a pass per face.

  4. #4
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    You've got 3 times more weld on the nut than you need. Every 2nd side should be plenty.

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Its gonna sound stupid, but here it is. 6011 if a fast freeze rod, every time you whip it away the puddle freezes. Your whipping action needs to be more consistent. Also, (this is the part that sounds stupid, but is exactly what you need) in the beginning where you have a pile up you need to fill less and in the end where you have a crater you need to fill more. You couldalso say pause less in the beginning and pause more in the end.

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Quote Originally Posted by walker View Post
    Its gonna sound stupid, but here it is. 6011 if a fast freeze rod, every time you whip it away the puddle freezes. Your whipping action needs to be more consistent. Also, (this is the part that sounds stupid, but is exactly what you need) in the beginning where you have a pile up you need to fill less and in the end where you have a crater you need to fill more. You couldalso say pause less in the beginning and pause more in the end.
    I agree. When I was taught the idea was when restarting a weld, back into the crater and proceed forward. There are some AWS tests that require stops in the middle of a coupon, and restart in the crater. Strike an arc some 1/4 inch ahead of the crater, quickly back into it to fill and march forward.
    Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR"
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  9. #7
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Thanks for the advice all. I am making two more this weekend. Iíll try some things and report back. Less weld. Less whip. Maybe push a little on the start rather than pure pull to help move the fill along

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Maybe push a little on the start rather than pure pull ...
    I'm not sure what you mean by "push" in the above statement, but I don't think it's something I would do when stick welding (unless you mean -- as Shovelon said -- that you should start ahead of your crater to preheat, then back up into your crater, fill, and proceed as normal...)

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    You don't want to push unless it's an awkward position and you have no choice. If doing a weld that comes back on it self the start doesn't matter too much since it will be welded over. If possible chip the slag before you go over the start. Roll welding pipe with 7018 you hope the slag self peels so you don't have to try and burn through it. Sometimes it can cause problems getting a nice tie in.

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Re push, Iím sorry as that was not clear. My rod is pulling at an angle w the normal. I find with 6013 I get less slag entrapment with more rod angle. So I tend to pull at this angle for all rods. But my sense is that 6011 has a much higher arc force if thatís the descriptor. I was going to lessen the angle hence push a little more. These 6011 really seem to jet and spray so they tend to really disturb the weld puddle.

    Yes guilty of too much weld. Since Iím just a dingbat hobbyist I try to use the limited project work for stick time!

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    I made two more this morning. I tried some different treatments but it came out mostly the same. I ran only three sides. I tacked all corners and the welded three sides. It looks cleaner. One stinker warped a bit. Anyway I like the aggressive feel of the 6011. But I just can’t seem to control and move the puddle like I can w a 6013 rod. Not my best welds. Wished these could be more consistent

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    Last edited by Continuum; 12-05-2020 at 08:01 PM.

  15. #12
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    First off, 1/8" is too large. Second off, if you're looking for 'appearance grade' get some 3/32" 309L. It will make someone that can't weld look like they actually knew how to use 7018, 6013 or 7014, when painted over. 6011 or 5P isn't ever appearance grade.

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    I made two more this morning. I tried some different treatments but it came out mostly the same. I ran only three sides. I tacked all corners and the welded three sides. It looks cleaner. One stinker warped a bit. Anyway I like the aggressive feel of the 6011. But I just can’t seem to control and move the puddle like I can w a 6013 rod. Not my best welds. Wished these could be more consistent

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    Are you starting your weld right where you strike? I agree, the arc from 6011 is nice and aggressive. 6010 is aggressive and smooth(er).
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  18. #14
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Use 6013 then. If you decide to weld with clamp removed, screw a bolt or threaded rod into nut a couple of threads. That will protect threads.


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  19. #15
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    I agree. If you want a different look use a different rod. I think your welds look fine.

    You could drill or punch a round hole , weld the nut into the hole and then finish the surface completely flat. A large hole will give a groove on the sides. A smaller hole could allow welding on the opposite side with no visible weld.

    Brazing would work too.

  20. #16
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Re 1/8 rod: materials are pretty thick so 1/8 seems right. I have 3/32 6013 I use for thin but they tend to trap flux.

    Re starting weld: tacked all corners then started ahead of tack waited until pool was wetting both parts then backed over the tack. I always get the crater at the end. I hold at the end to fill the crater but the heat is building so the crater flattens. Again typical. Not getting better at this.

    Re 6013: The reason I went w 6011 is to avoid slag entrapment on my starts. I can’t seem to nip that w 6013. I backstep after striking the arc but I always get a little booger in the start. I absolutely hate seeing slag entrapment in my welds. Often I grind them out and start over even though structurally it would make no difference

    Here is 3/32 6013. Maybe 90 A. Unless I swirl the rod I get flux entrapment
    Maddening. You can see the starts have a booger. Drives me bonkers.
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    Re hole: Not entirely clear on comment. This fits in head stock on thread. I think I can file and grind out the warp. It’s not much. Maybe 0.06”

    Re 6010: I’d like to try this but the transformer machine will not likely run the rod.

    Re protecting threads: agree and I do this if I have a bolt. This is 3/4 16 UNF. They stayed clean

    Basically I really like this rod and want to use it more. I seem to be able to control to puddle w 6013 better. This rod is like painting with a garden hose at least on my poor mans machine

    Thanks all

    Regards
    Last edited by Continuum; 12-06-2020 at 05:42 AM.

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Re 6010: Iíd like to try this but the transformer machine will not likely run the rod.
    All the welders I have are transformers, and they all run 6010 just fine on DC. If all you have is AC, then stick to 6011 for a fast-freeze cellulosic rod.

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    I certainly would like to try 6010. Hesitated purchasing a box based on web reading. I don’t want to be stuck w five pounds of rod I can’t light. Machine is DCEP or DCEN w Dinse swap. I have to run 6011 on the high voltage tap. May try to get a 6010 stub at the local steel shop to see if I can light it.

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    I certainly would like to try 6010. Hesitated purchasing a box based on web reading. I don’t want to be stuck w five pounds of rod I can’t light. Machine is DCEP or DCEN w Dinse swap. I have to run 6011 on the high voltage tap. May try to get a 6010 stub at the local steel shop to see if I can light it.
    What machine do you have?
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    I have to run 6011 on the high voltage tap. May try to get a 6010 stub at the local steel shop to see if I can light it.
    Depending on your machine's V-A curves, you may be able to get more "dig" with the lower OCV tap, though it'll be more prone to sticking when you start. Or at least that's the case with my engine drive welder -- if you want more "dig" (more ability to jam the rod into a deep root without snuffing/sticking), you go to a higher range and a lower OCV on the "fine" adjustment...it's kind of counter-intuitive until you try it a few times. On the flipside, if you want a more buttery arc, and less "dig," you go with a lower range and a higher OCV on the "fine" adjustment (an easy way to remember this is to remember that if you're using a low-hy rod -- like 7018 -- you want to go with low-high on the range and "fine" adjustments, and vice-versa for 6010.) This is the case with my Miller Big Blue 251D but I think I've heard that it might be the reverse of how you run something like an SA-200 ... or maybe the dials are just backwards...I forget.

    Whatever the case, looking at your machine's volt-amp curves should give you the answer.

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    6010/6011 can look very neat in the right hands with a classic stack of dimes look. I'd take an ugly 6010/6011 over 6013 any day. 6013 has more slag than weld metal. 7014 would be a better option. Here's a 6010 sample I found in a quick search.

    https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/...-5-jpeg.58886/

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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    6013 just needs more amps, more so than 7018 to help push the slag back.
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    speaking of crappy 6013 reminds me of this thread
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    I think that's CEP's friend from Ireland. Somewhere awhile back it was suggested that the 6013 used in Ireland/Europe is a different rod than than the 6013 used in N. America. This makes some sense since the 6013 designation comes from the AWS not the IWS. In CEP's break tests with 6013 it broke in only 3 or 4 blows if I recall. 7014 was 12 or 13 blows I think.

  29. #25
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    Re: 6011 pileup on start crater at end

    Re low voltage light: interesting thoughts on that. I figured the high voltage would dig more. I had not thought that but I will try to test. I can get the 6011 lit in the low voltage but I really need to eliminate lead voltage drop. In fact the whole 6011 effort started out w me redoing all the connectors and clamps since the Sears stock item was pretty sad. This does help and I can light at 50 OCV but it is a tad sporadic. I really need to keep the arc tight. I’ll test and report back.

    Re machine: basis is Sear century 230 A AC unit w high and low voltage tap, converted to DC via this effort https://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthrea...-DC-Conversion. Burned 10 pounds on this new rectifier. Pulled to inspect and all appears well. I love the DC and use that exclusively now.

    Re 6013 more amps: i in see that too. Is this because the flux takes a considerable portion of the energy for melting? If I did the above welds 6013 I’d start at 130 w my machine. I was 110 A for the 6011.

    Re 6013 pretty welds: yes I see the very good performance w 6013. It seems when everything is perfect I can make nice welds. Its just a little iffy and I get less fail w cellulose rods it seems. I found one thing w 6013 and that is that the slag covering is so thick and w such high thermal capacitance, welds seem less likely to crack. The fast freeze 6011 not so. I like 6013 for welding cast iron to steel. I have pretty good luck. I also like the 3/32 for button welding thin stock.

    Well I am almost out of 6011. I need another box so if you all are confident they will light I’ll just buy 6010 instead. I weld exclusively on DC since I made the conversion. I was going to TSC for the Hobart 6011 or 10 rods unless you have another recommendation.

    I looked up rods. Perhaps this would be a better choice 6010-6P
    https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=18873

    I’ll take recommendations freely.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Continuum; 12-07-2020 at 04:08 AM.

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