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Thread: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

  1. #1
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    Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    I have Plasma etc for cutting however I want to add the ability to Braze to my shop.

    I would prefer NOT to have Oxy Acetelyne in my shop for safety. Maybe I am overestimating its danger but I don't want the risk only to add the ability to Braze.

    I know that some people Braze using Map/Pro and Oxygen Benzomatic cylinders but it looks uber expensive to buy all those tiny oxy cylinders plus I heard there can be issues with getting enough BTU's into the part to Braze.

    I know some people Braze with their TIG but my understanding is that it doesn't do nearly as good of a job as using a flame. Correct me if I am wrong.

    So, is there a way to Braze without getting Oxy Acetelyne?

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    I'm puzzled why you seem to think mapp gas (or propane) is somehow not as "dangerous" as acetylene. What exactly is your sticking point with O/A?

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    I'm puzzled why you seem to think mapp gas (or propane) is somehow not as "dangerous" as acetylene. What exactly is your sticking point with O/A?
    make that two... Acetylene is no more dangerous than map or propane actually probably safer... millions of oxy/acet sets in use worldwide seldom hear of any catastrophe that didn't involve someone leaving a burning torch near flammables..... your plasma cutter is actually a bigger fire hazard with its sparks and you not being able to see where they are landing while your under the hood than brazing with oxy/acet,
    Last edited by monsoon-mech; 01-19-2021 at 09:23 AM.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    So weird backstory...I got 3rd degree burns when I was young so I am super conservative when it comes to fire. Once was enough.

    Maybe I am blowing the danger of Acetelyne out of proportion. My thought process is that there are WAY more articles etc about using OxyAce safely than Propane. Propane doesn't require flashback arresters (if they were available for propane I would use them) which probably speaks to OxyAce being more dangerous.

    If I am overly concerned about the dangers, please set me straight.

    I don't need the ability to cut etc with the setup, all I want to do is be able to Braze.

    Sorry for my lack of knowledge in this area and thanks for the help

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by danmcph View Post
    So weird backstory...I got 3rd degree burns when I was young so I am super conservative when it comes to fire. Once was enough.

    Maybe I am blowing the danger of Acetelyne out of proportion. My thought process is that there are WAY more articles etc about using OxyAce safely than Propane. Propane doesn't require flashback arresters (if they were available for propane I would use them) which probably speaks to OxyAce being more dangerous.

    If I am overly concerned about the dangers, please set me straight.

    I don't need the ability to cut etc with the setup, all I want to do is be able to Braze.

    Sorry for my lack of knowledge in this area and thanks for the help
    There is an old time process called Carbon Arc Welding and Brazing. it uses a Stick welder, Carbon rod holder and carbon rods. It's almost prehistoric but was widely used and still available today. Lincoln probably had the most famous one. > For the record Oxy-fuel is just as safe as the operator who uses it <
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    I just read this

    http://murex-welding.co.uk/gb/en/sup...f-Oxy-Fuel.pdf

    So, it sounds like there is no easy Brazing substitute for OxyAce

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Kinda gotta know what you desire to do? Acetylene brazing is versatile. Probably best for learning. I mostly use oxy/propane. Ultimately, you only need a heat source
    Induction and stick welding machine would work
    Even a forge. There are even air/fuel setups that will work.

    Oxygen concerns me more than fuel. Mostly because of folk casual attitude toward it.

    Benzomatic are expensive and do not heat much area. I built a track bike with that setup. Krazy expensive and inefficient


    Good luck. Perhaps, find somebody to allow you to try brazing.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    If it's properly handled, I don't think O/A is any more "dangerous" than the gasoline in your lawnmower.

    Knowledge is your friend here. I would recommend getting a thin but GOOD book on O/A (like the Union Carbide "Oxy-Acetylene Handbook" -- you can probably get a good used copy from alibris.com for a dollar or less), reading it, and not looking back.

    As far as acetylene's supposed "dangers," I suspect people get scared by the advice that "you should never pressurize acetylene above 15 psi or it can explode!" ... but many acetylene regulators won't even ALLOW you to crank it above 15 psi ... and even if you could, the regulators generally have big red indicators that say DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!! ... and really, that's just one rule you need to remember, kinda like "drive on the right!" It's not that hard to memorize...

    The other safety rules are kinda common-sensical once you understand them, and they apply across the board regardless of what fuel you use, be it propane, MAPP, etc., so no difference there.

    For a rig, I would get Victor or Victor-compatible.
    Last edited by Kelvin; 01-19-2021 at 11:21 AM.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    I'm puzzled why you seem to think mapp gas (or propane) is somehow not as "dangerous" as acetylene. What exactly is your sticking point with O/A?

    Well propane doesn't have the potential to explode if you set the regulator pressure too high. Based on that alone I think propane is safer. Plus the fact that propane doesn't have any of the issues with acetone that acetylene does (withdrawal rate limitations and tank position issues), also makes me think propane is safer.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Propane will limit ones ability of learning to braze. It is not thw best for building io filler or running beads.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by danmcph View Post
    I know some people Braze with their TIG but my understanding is that it doesn't do nearly as good of a job as using a flame. Correct me if I am wrong.
    I'm no expert, but think TIG brazing works really well. I actually have some aluminum bronze rods on the way so I can try that option for TIG brazing...works really well on cast iron from what I've read/watched. I've done normal silicon bronze TIG brazing in the past and been very happy with it.

    If you have a TIG setup I think I would give it a try before buying anything else.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    TIG brazing. Done it a few times. Last week fabbed a rail with custom ornaments. Used silicon bronze. Worked well, was wondering how the capillary action stacked up against bronze with flame. Seem more appropriate for fillets and grooves?

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    I have one time used mapp gas and oxygen. One time has to used weld with propane and oxygen.
    The only reason I used mapp or propane is i had no choice. It was job site far from any thing.

    Use will be mush happier with OxyAcetelyne.
    It also sounds like you low expire in welding and brassing this will hard for you.

    The adds for mapp are great but it done by a pro.

    I am retired but still do welding and brassing.
    I like brassing cast iron and use propane for preheating the cast iron for brassing.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by danmcph View Post
    I have Plasma etc for cutting however I want to add the ability to Braze to my shop.

    I would prefer NOT to have Oxy Acetelyne in my shop for safety. Maybe I am overestimating its danger but I don't want the risk only to add the ability to Braze.

    I know that some people Braze using Map/Pro and Oxygen Benzomatic cylinders but it looks uber expensive to buy all those tiny oxy cylinders plus I heard there can be issues with getting enough BTU's into the part to Braze.

    I know some people Braze with their TIG but my understanding is that it doesn't do nearly as good of a job as using a flame. Correct me if I am wrong.

    So, is there a way to Braze without getting Oxy Acetelyne?

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Well propane doesn't have the potential to explode if you set the regulator pressure too high.
    You hear the 15 psi warning a lot, but I've never heard of anyone blowing himself up by turning an acet regulator too high. Have you? Has anyone here?

    And if you DO blow up an acetylene regulator, does it do a lot of damage, or is it more like a Bangsite cannon going off?

    I'd be willing to bet that for every one person blown up by cranking acetylene pressure too high, 100 if not 10,000 times as many people have gotten blown up by cutting fuel tanks or oil barrels...
    Last edited by Kelvin; 01-19-2021 at 07:05 PM.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    There was a discussion about it on here several years ago. General consensus was acetylene is unstable over 15 PSI and anyone who wants to be the guinea pig tempting fate is a fool. For filling cylinders they use up to 50 PSI max. but it is done in very controlled conditions and the cylinders are cooled with water. Piping is welded only and extra heavy 1/2" dia. Otherwise filling would take an excessively long time. Usually about 6 cylinders are filled at a time and it still takes at least a couple hours to fill based on cylinder size. Acetylene explodes like dynamite.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    There are many dangers in everyday life. Most people learn to deal with these risks. I think your worry is greater than the risk involved. Maybe should take a course in the proper use, and care of welding and O/A equipment(if you haven't already). MIG and TIG welders, plasma cutters, and air compressors all can be hazardous when handled improperly. Most beginner welding courses go over welding, and O/A torch safety. An OxyAcetylene torch set-up is such a versatile tool. You can weld, braze, solder, cut , heat, heat treat , and preheat materials. Filled tanks are readily available in many sizes, making them far more economical than all those bernzomatic tanks. Many people have used this technology for over a hundred years, and its still around for a reason. Its only as safe as the person using it.
    Its surprising that you don't have torch, you list having a lincoln 350mp, and a Dynasty 280. How do you preheat anything over an inch thick ?
    Tig brazing can be used in a lot situations, but often a pre-heat is required also.

    Good luck in your search

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    I've worked around O/A tanks for over 40 years. I've never been injured by a regulator, nor do I know anyone personally who has. I've burned myself with the end of a hot rod, but I've done that more often with my buzz boxes. Conquer your fears. Burn some metal.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    There was a discussion about it on here several years ago. General consensus was acetylene is unstable over 15 PSI and anyone who wants to be the guinea pig tempting fate is a fool. For filling cylinders they use up to 50 PSI max. but it is done in very controlled conditions and the cylinders are cooled with water. Piping is welded only and extra heavy 1/2" dia. Otherwise filling would take an excessively long time. Usually about 6 cylinders are filled at a time and it still takes at least a couple hours to fill based on cylinder size. Acetylene explodes like dynamite.
    its not the pressure regulator that explodes, its the tank itself... Acetylene tanks have a porous honeycomb material called a monolithic mass, (its like a sponge) its then filled with acetone the acetylene is dissolved in the acetone this is what stabilizes the acetylene otherwise it will spontaneously ignite (very violently) the 15 psi warning really isn't relevant but its a workable way for laymen to stay well within safe parameters the true measurement is based on volume of the cylinder and rate of flow, the danger comes if the rate of flow exceeds the monolithic mass ability to match the acetylene/acetone ratio if you start flowing out acetone instead of acetylene then once the volume of acetone is less than needed to stabilize the acetylene the tank goes boom.... and no if you are near the tank you will not be surviving as a 125 cyl. is pretty close to the explosive force of a few pounds of TNT

    https://my.firefighternation.com/for...bileRedirect=1

    the reason you really want to keep an acet tank vertical is because of that monolithic mass , ya don't want it breaking down... we used to intentionally blow up various gas cylinders when I was in the Army to demonstrate their potential as IEDs, even a small acet cyl. can be very "dramatic" if not handled properly but its so easy to use them safely that unless your a complete imbecile looking to win a Darwin award its totally safe .....

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    The tech. school I went to had an exploded acetylene cylinder. It would have been a violent explosion! I previously mentioned a branch manager got really upset with me because I wouldn't give him a part number for a high flow acetylene regulator for his customer using a large rosebud. Customer couldn't get enough acetylene to flow. He wouldn't tell me what size of rosebud, what size of acetylene cylinder, if 1 or more cylinders were manifolded, etc. I can't give out info to make a bomb. I found an article that basically said the acetone likely blocked the regulator and prevented the guy from blowing himself up.

    I've used rosebuds and it's usually pretty easy to see if they've drawn acetone out because the head will have a black sticky goop on it. When they fill acetylene cylinders they have to weigh them and measure the amount of acetone in them. That's why they usually have different cubic ft. amounts of gas in them. If they are too low on acetone, they will add more. Some welding supplies charge by the cubic ft./cubic meter and some just charge a flat rate for the size of cylinder. If paying a flat rate try and find a cylinder with a sticker showing the highest volume. There can be a fair difference on the larger cylinders.
    Last edited by Welder Dave; 01-20-2021 at 01:39 AM.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Alright guys, I watched a bunch of safety vids on youtube and found a chart that recommends settings for different uses along with a list of safety precautions I will post on my OxyAce setup.

    It makes sense that it is safe as long as I stay within those parameters. I have a Victor kit coming along with a tank cart etc.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by danmcph View Post
    I know that some people Braze using Map/Pro and Oxygen Benzomatic cylinders but it looks uber expensive to buy all those tiny oxy cylinders plus I heard there can be issues with getting enough BTU's into the part to Braze.
    If all you want to do is heating, brazing and cutting (no welding) Victor and others make industrial setups that use regular size cylinders, not the tiny throw-away cans: https://bakersgas.com/products/victo...28855321002037



    I know some people Braze with their TIG but my understanding is that it doesn't do nearly as good of a job as using a flame. Correct me if I am wrong.
    You're wrong. TIG brazing is different, but not inferior.



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  28. #22
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Not sure if you have a mig set up but Miller does have parameters for mig brazing.


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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    https://www.millerwelds.com/resource...brazing-basics


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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    If all you want to do is heating, brazing and cutting (no welding) Victor and others make industrial setups that use regular size cylinders, not the tiny throw-away cans: https://bakersgas.com/products/victo...28855321002037




    Intrigued. I wonder how well it cuts, mainly pierce. It takes a lot of heat to achieve exothermic action of the heated surface.

    All I do is cut, heat, and braze. Never weld. If acetylene goes away this could be an option. Would miss acetylene as is works so well, especially for jeweler grade silver brazing.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    Intrigued. I wonder how well it cuts, mainly pierce. It takes a lot of heat to achieve exothermic action of the heated surface.

    All I do is cut, heat, and braze. Never weld. If acetylene goes away this could be an option. Would miss acetylene as is works so well, especially for jeweler grade silver brazing.
    It works for cutting for sure.

    We had an outfit come demo a giant metal dust collector hopper left here from a picture framing company.

    They cut that thing up with the regular BBQ size tanks.
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