Need advice about water heater problem.

[Joe H]

Ok, here's the deal. I was taking a shower this morning, when I reached down to turn off the water I got an eye opening jolt of electricity! I drew back, thought "I'm losing it" tried again and zap, got me again. It wasn't too terrible, like a really hot 9-volt on the tongue. Once I finally got the water turned off and got out I grabbed my meter. The meter shows like 8 volts between the faucet and the drain.


I went down to the garage to see what was up. My house is old, and has old timey screw in fuses instead of breakers. 1 of the two fuses to the water heater was blown. I replaced the fuse, reconnected power, and the fuse blew instantly again. Confused, I checked voltage and resistance at water heater element terminals. The top element shows "0" volts between the two terminals. (remember 1 of the 2 fuses for the 220v circuit is blown) The lower element shows 120v between the terminals. Resistance was 13.5 on top element and 12.6ohms on the bottom.


I'm bewildered, as I have very limited electrical knowledge. I'm thinking there is a short somewhere. The big ground wire to the neutral block in the fuse panel is tied to a copper water pipe. I guess that might give a clue as to how I'm able to get 120v on one of the elements when there are only 2 wires going to the water heater, making a 220v circuit, and one of those has a blown fuse.


You guys are always such a great help, so I thought I would ask here before I took further action. I took the other fuse to the heater out, and replaced it with a blown one to disable the water heater entirely. I'll shower at my girlfriends house for a day or two.

Thanks in advance guys! Any help is much appreciated!

[MicroZone]

Personally, I would call an electrician immediately. There are 3 things in life I don't mess with - fire, electricity and pregnant women.

All joking aside, old wiring is a fire waiting to happen. Others on here should chime in that can give you a better idea. However, it can't hurt to make a few phone calls and ask.

[Joe H]

You are probably right... The wiring is old, but looks to be in good shape. Also I doubt you could burn this place down with a flamethrower. Well, maybe the roof, but there is no wiring up there. The entire house is concrete, even the interior walls. I know, strange huh? A fireproof house is perfect for me though, couldn't be happier! Fire resistant, and a 24'x36' garage to boot! I can even test my little jet engines in the garage (doors open) without worrying about torching the place.

Seriously though, I'll call an electrician if I have to. I'd rather not though, funds are low as I just spent my savings on a Cutmaster 38, which I absolutely love, and several other tools that I really "needed". I'm hoping this is something really simple with the water heater... Worst comes to worst, I'll go get myself a gas water heater, as I already use gas heat anyhow. I really did not like being electrocuted in the shower!

[awright]

DO NOT USE THE SHOWER UNTIL THE PROBLEM IS CORRECTED BY AN ELECTRICIAN! IN FACT, I WOULD ADVISE THAT YOU DISCONNECT THE WATER HEATER FROM POWER BY PULLING THE FUSES FEEDING IT UNTIL THE PROBLEM IS DEFINITELY PROFESSIONALLY CORRECTED. All the other plumbing connected to the water heater is very likely to be as electrically hot as the shower valve handle you felt and measured.

THIS IS A POTENTIAL ELECTROCUTION HAZARD!

It sounds like you have electrical leakage from defective heaters or defective wiring, and it sounds like your plumbing is not properly bonded to ground across your water heater, as required by the code. Don't be lulled into complacency by the fact that you only measured 8 volts. It only takes a few thousandths of an amp through the heart to kill. Standing on a wet shower drain grille in bare feet and touching an electrically hot handle with your hand sends current through the most vulnerable part of your body. The fact that you "...got an eye-opening jolt..." means that the next one may throw your heart into fibrillation. Do not use your body to test for electrical leakage, even very gingerly. This is definitely NOT the place to economize by avoiding hiring a pro to check out your problem. You got a serious warning of the existence of a potentially lethal condition. Heed it. The solution is very likely to be reasonably inexpensive, like replacing heater elements, cleaning up corrosion around electrical connections, or replacing defective wire at some obscure location. And your plumbing must be bonded to ground with a jumper across the water heater.

The fact that one heater element had no voltage across it does not necessarily tell you anything because your controller may apply heat in stages.

Just my humble opinion.

awright

[David R]

I would disconnect the heater and replace the fuse. If it blows again, you have a dead short some place that is not the heater.

[Sober_Pollock]

DO NOT USE THE SHOWER UNTIL THE PROBLEM IS CORRECTED BY AN ELECTRICIAN! IN FACT, I WOULD ADVISE THAT YOU DISCONNECT THE WATER HEATER FROM POWER BY PULLING THE FUSES FEEDING IT UNTIL THE PROBLEM IS DEFINITELY PROFESSIONALLY CORRECTED. All the other plumbing connected to the water heater is very likely to be as electrically hot as the shower valve handle you felt and measured.

THIS IS A POTENTIAL ELECTROCUTION HAZARD!

I could not agree more. I think some of us on this forum have demonstrated that we are more than willing to help, but this is NOT the appropriate problem for people to be giving tips and suggestions trying to diagnose a problem long distance-like!

This should be dealt with by a professional immediately!

[MicroZone]

Very well stated fellas. We want to keep you on the forum Joe H., I would even go as far as returning your plasma to help pay for the repairs...if it needs to go that far. Your life is worth much more than that plasma ANY DAY. Take care and let us know how it turns out.

[Joe H]

Very well stated fellas. We want to keep you on the forum Joe H., I would even go as far as returning your plasma to help pay for the repairs...if it needs to go that far. Your life is worth much more than that plasma ANY DAY. Take care and let us know how it turns out.

Return my plasma????????? Man, hot water is for sissy's anyway!

I appreciate the concern guys. Is this really such a big deal though? I'm talking about a single circuit consisting of about 3' of wiring, the heater is right next to the fuse panel. I'm going to replace the water heater, it has a MFG date of 1988, so I think it has earned it's retirement. My concern is that it apparently isn't properly grounded. The neutral is bonded to the water pipe, acting as the ground for the entire system. This doesn't seem right to me, even though the copper water pipe comes out of the earth 5' away.

I suppose I'll have to get someone out to supervise/check over my work. I'm going to handle the installation myself though. I'll grab a home wiring book, and make sure I have it checked out by someone qualified before I give it any juice.

Thanks guys!


Microzone, I can't believe you even suggested that!

[MoonRise]

"Is this really such a big deal though?"

YES!!!!!!

No exaggeration, it IS a matter of life and death.

Now all that out of the way, older wiring can be fine if it was done right and is in good condition. Older wiring in a deteriorated condition can be a hazard.

An electric water heater should be a relatively simple device. Power goes into the heater elements and makes them hot which then makes the water hot. Simple.

If voltage is getting into the water pipes, then it could be a corroded connection somewhere or it could be a bad wiring job somewhere or it could be something as simple as a bad heater element.

If the heater tank is fine, then I'd probably check wiring connections for looseness or corrosion and then probably just replace the heater elements. If the tank or other parts of the water heater are looking iffy, then it might be time to replace the entire water heater.

btw, the neutral bonded to the copper water pipe as the ground for the entire system is a fine and proper way to ground the system. It is -THE- way that things used to be done and there is really nothing wrong with the method.

[MicroZone]

Uh, I'd rather have my life over a plasma any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

This is the flow chart for problems:

problems > accidents > death ...

[awright]

Sounds like a good plan, considering the age of the heater.

I get the impression that we have failed to convince you of the seriousness of the hazard you faced.

The mandatory bonding ACROSS the water heater means you should see (or install) a short, fairly large, probably bare copper wire clamped to the incoming pipe and to the outgoing pipe using proper copper/brass grounding clamps made for pipe grounding. The whole point is that, for safety, you do not want to depend upon the condition of the pipe joints and the steel tank of the heater to provide solid grounding of your plumbing system. If your pipes had been properly bonded across the heater and properly grounded, you would not have felt the shock from the shower handle even if the wiring/heating elements had failed.

Grounding of the incoming power wiring at the heater is a separate issue, also important for safety.

awright

[slamdvw]

The bonding between the inlet and outlets of the water heater are important, as well as the use of Dielectric unions... ( or are they only for gas units, can't remember )

[MoonRise]

Dielectric unions are used, or are supposed to be used, whenever you are connecting two different metals together. Such as a copper water pipe and an iron (steel) pipe nipple or water tank. The dielectric union makes an electrical separation or insulation between the metals to prevent galvanic corrosion.

Different metals in the presence of an electrolyte is how you make a battery.

[Joe H]

Sounds like a good plan, considering the age of the heater.

I get the impression that we have failed to convince you of the seriousness of the hazard you faced.

The mandatory bonding ACROSS the water heater means you should see (or install) a short, fairly large, probably bare copper wire clamped to the incoming pipe and to the outgoing pipe using proper copper/brass grounding clamps made for pipe grounding. The whole point is that, for safety, you do not want to depend upon the condition of the pipe joints and the steel tank of the heater to provide solid grounding of your plumbing system. If your pipes had been properly bonded across the heater and properly grounded, you would not have felt the shock from the shower handle even if the wiring/heating elements had failed.

Grounding of the incoming power wiring at the heater is a separate issue, also important for safety.

awright

No, I am very convinced of the seriousness of my plumbing shocking me. I just think that this is simple enough for me to take care of myself. I'm not completely ignorant after all.

Thank you very much for explaining what you meant by grounding across the water heater. Also thanks for explaining why. I greatly appreciate that. You are correct, there is no copper between the incoming water line and the outgoing from the water heater. I will take care of that before any power is turned on to the new heater. That is exactly what I needed to know, and why I didn't just replace the water heater without asking. I knew that my faucet shouldn't shock me period.


Guys, you act like you think I was planning on just dealing with being shocked by my water pipes! Come on, I said in the first post how I had disconnected the water heater, and was going to shower at my girlfriends until I got it straightned out.

Thanks again, I feel much better now. I will let you know how it turns out in a few days.

[Noa'zarc]

Wow just last month i had this very thing happen to me whilst in the tub and i touched the faucet and ZAP!..problem was the lower heat element inside the hot water tank(electric,not gas if that amkes any sort of difference)..just run a 220v set volt meter between the two connections,and becareful not to touch yourself to any contacting.

[Sober_Pollock]

Wow just last month i had this very thing happen to me whilst in the tub and i touched the faucet and ZAP!..problem was the lower heat element inside the hot water tank(electric,not gas if that amkes any sort of difference)..just run a 220v set volt meter between the two connections,and becareful not to touch yourself to any contacting.

I love that part.....

(electric,not gas if that amke"s any sort of difference)"

I'm rolling on the floor!

Yer killin me here!

[Weldordie]

Joe,

I think you said that if you had to replace the water heater, you would install a gas heater. I don't know how cost of gas compares to electricity in your area, but here, gas is more economical, and a gas water heater, generally, heats water faster, than does an electrical unit.

[Joker11]

Allow me to hijack the thread after that last post. I grew up in SoCal where natural gas is a way of life. Then I moved to Denver where elect. EVERYTHING is a way of life. Those people used to crack me up! They would shudder at my comments about gas being so much nicer for hot water, cooking and such. "Oh my god! You let your family live in a house with gas?!" was a regular comment.

[Sandy]

The NEC calls for the bonding of the homes metallic piping system, if it has one, hot and cold, to the electrical system grounding electrode. This is the meter/panel/house electrical system grounding electrode, not the Po Cos system and the metallic piping system of the structure and has nothing to do with your water line in from the street..... As an additional requirement for electric water heaters it requires that the cold water inlet be suitably bonded to the electrical system grounding electrode. This would cover scenarios where a metallic piping system does not exist, or where potentially insulating unions are used or tons of pipe dope or flexible quake connectors that are less than ideal conductors, bla bla bla.

Do not be bonding any neutrals to the tank or pipes. All wiring connections at the tank should be as per the manufacturers recommendations, all other grounding and bonding should be as per the NEC, then they all work together.

[Noa'zarc]

I love that part.....

(electric,not gas if that amke"s any sort of difference)"

I'm rolling on the floor!

Yer killin me here!

====
i don't get it, i want to laugh too!!stop rolling on the floor and 'ehlp the humour disabled! :0)

[bruceb]

It's more than likely your water heater element that is blowing your fuse.

You do, however, have the second problem, as most have mentioned ,which is your bonding or lack thereof.

Make sure you fix both of them.