Now I would be interested in other’s experiences with other brands. There are Chinese brands on Amazon for sub-$300. I was tempted to go that route since I’m not a full-time professional but was afraid I would regret it. But who knows - it might be a good option.
Quality tools are expensive but I’m always glad when I use them that I made the investment.
We only do balustrading , and have to have a complelling reason not to core hole our assemblies.
Congrats on your purchase , its one of those tools that once you have one you wonder how you ever survived without it . Never buy cheap .. there are some tools and applications where cheap pretty much does the same job as expensive , not core drills.
We have Weka drills . They get used every day and last for ever .
90% 65mm holes , the other 10% are 50 and 75 . a very rare 105mm and the odd 44mm .
What William says about running down the leg is true and helpful .
But .... when possible if piece is not too heavy or long , fill the holes with the reqired amount and slowly lower . No mess and good encapsulation of leg . ( Well...untill you over fill and then there is mess LOL , comes with experience )
Two other notes :
We alway dampen holes pre grouting , not a big deal if you just drilled , but if you drilled earlier . Always a moist hole with no or very little free water in core.
Also we never use quick setting grout . It does expand . 99% of the time not a problem . But especially at the corners of old slabs it can crack the slab . This is not a Tradie Myth it has happened to me . Slabs can have cracks and weeak spots you dont or cant see .
Here is an example of eroded anchoring cement. The freezing water caused the damage. This rail is about 20 years old, I did not build or install it. However, client wanted all rails removed stripped and galvanized. The job never happened, after I snapped the photos of the multiple crack in the curb. The erosion of cement is very common.
After our 2021 freak winter /ice storm, i received multiple call about broken stone or bricks. On guy had a brand new limestone patio/steps break at every cored hole. He described what the installer had done, then asked in I would be willing to reinstall the rails. I declined, stating from what he described i would do any thing differently.
We only do balustrading , and have to have a complelling reason not to core hole our assemblies.
Congrats on your purchase , its one of those tools that once you have one you wonder how you ever survived without it . Never buy cheap .. there are some tools and applications where cheap pretty much does the same job as expensive , not core drills.
We have Weka drills . They get used every day and last for ever .
90% 65mm holes , the other 10% are 50 and 75 . a very rare 105mm and the odd 44mm .
What William says about running down the leg is true and helpful .
But .... when possible if piece is not too heavy or long , fill the holes with the reqired amount and slowly lower . No mess and good encapsulation of leg . ( Well...untill you over fill and then there is mess LOL , comes with experience )
Two other notes :
We alway dampen holes pre grouting , not a big deal if you just drilled , but if you drilled earlier . Always a moist hole with no or very little free water in core.
Also we never use quick setting grout . It does expand . 99% of the time not a problem . But especially at the corners of old slabs it can crack the slab . This is not a Tradie Myth it has happened to me . Slabs can have cracks and weeak spots you dont or cant see .
Brett
In the summer you are lucky to pour one hole, and a half of another hole at a time before the mix starts setting up. I also level the rail in all directions and then pour. The stuff we use QuickRok sets in a minute or two. You could never fill multiple holes set and level the rails in time. I often break up the cores and use them in the bottom of at least one hole to level the rail. Even little broken pieces anything to throw in to level it. My rails are usually sealed so not much goes up into the rail, and I have yet to have a problem with QuickRok letting go or stoops breaking up. But I use it like grout as it is setting up and I leave it above grade so water-sheds from the surface.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
I just agreed to do a set of rails at a local hotel. The owner wants to match what’s on the pool deck which is 3” square posts and 1-1/2 pipe handrails offset from the posts. There is about 150 feet linear of rails to do. Three sets on a 2 step stair case and the rest on a multiple turn ADA ramp ramp with a bump out section that gets used as a smoking area. I’ve done a lot of rails in the past but always for residential applications. I had planned initially to rent a core drill and go that way as that’s how all the commercial rails I see around here are done but the customer wants to have base plates and bolts mostly so repairs can be made in the future as we have pretty long winters and ramps and stairs spend a lot of time with salt on them . I’ve always been really happy with the rigidity of the rails I’ve done in the past using base plates and full sleeve wedge anchors but I’m now thinking of trying to convince the customer to go with the coring. My questions are how big a hole to set the 3” square posts? How close could that hole be made to the edge of the stairs/ramp, how close to a corner? And how deep should each hole be to secure each post? How much time to make each hole? this is a pretty convoluted ramp layout, I’m looking at 33 posts being set into concrete and I’d need to estimate the cost difference between base plates and coring. The core drill they rent at my local Lowe’s is a husqvarna https://rentals.lowes.com/item/Core%...%20Stand/24527
I just agreed to do a set of rails at a local hotel. The owner wants to match what’s on the pool deck which is 3” square posts and 1-1/2 pipe handrails offset from the posts. There is about 150 feet linear of rails to do. Three sets on a 2 step stair case and the rest on a multiple turn ADA ramp ramp with a bump out section that gets used as a smoking area. I’ve done a lot of rails in the past but always for residential applications. I had planned initially to rent a core drill and go that way as that’s how all the commercial rails I see around here are done but the customer wants to have base plates and bolts mostly so repairs can be made in the future as we have pretty long winters and ramps and stairs spend a lot of time with salt on them . I’ve always been really happy with the rigidity of the rails I’ve done in the past using base plates and full sleeve wedge anchors but I’m now thinking of trying to convince the customer to go with the coring. My questions are how big a hole to set the 3” square posts? How close could that hole be made to the edge of the stairs/ramp, how close to a corner? And how deep should each hole be to secure each post? How much time to make each hole? this is a pretty convoluted ramp layout, I’m looking at 33 posts being set into concrete and I’d need to estimate the cost difference between base plates and coring. The core drill they rent at my local Lowe’s is a husqvarna https://rentals.lowes.com/item/Core%...%20Stand/24527
Never closer than four inches from an edge of the cement, measured from the rail has always proven to be a safe distance. There have been a few that had to be closer because the bricklayer didn't account for a rail. Or actually offered a stoop and rail and the people didn't like his rail work so he built the stoop that needed a rail too small to put a rail on the stoop on purpose. Kind of like if I cannot sell you rail no one will, haha.
I have cored closer than that on wheelchair ramps. And I have mounted the rails beyond the ramp because the ramp was too narrow to have rails, and the newer code stated we had to have a bottom pipe rail to keep the wheelchair from hitting the verticles. We had to put a rail at the bottom, one in the middle, and one on top. The only way that would fit was to mount the rails beyond the ramp.
You would need a 4 1/2" core for a 3" square post. That size sucks because unless you are very good with the handheld you have to use a vacuum and base mounted core drill which adds complication and time to the job, especially on a ramp because most core drills bases only adjust in one direction, so there is no way to use the base unless you keep the rail set in at least 5" to the center.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Last edited by William McCormick; 07-07-2021 at 12:55 AM.
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
I just agreed to do a set of rails at a local hotel. The owner wants to match what’s on the pool deck which is 3” square posts and 1-1/2 pipe handrails offset from the posts. There is about 150 feet linear of rails to do. Three sets on a 2 step stair case and the rest on a multiple turn ADA ramp ramp with a bump out section that gets used as a smoking area. I’ve done a lot of rails in the past but always for residential applications. I had planned initially to rent a core drill and go that way as that’s how all the commercial rails I see around here are done but the customer wants to have base plates and bolts mostly so repairs can be made in the future as we have pretty long winters and ramps and stairs spend a lot of time with salt on them . I’ve always been really happy with the rigidity of the rails I’ve done in the past using base plates and full sleeve wedge anchors but I’m now thinking of trying to convince the customer to go with the coring. My questions are how big a hole to set the 3” square posts? How close could that hole be made to the edge of the stairs/ramp, how close to a corner? And how deep should each hole be to secure each post? How much time to make each hole? this is a pretty convoluted ramp layout, I’m looking at 33 posts being set into concrete and I’d need to estimate the cost difference between base plates and coring. The core drill they rent at my local Lowe’s is a husqvarna https://rentals.lowes.com/item/Core%...%20Stand/24527
That core drill is not a vacuum base, so you need a roof or overhang above to press against to hold the base in place, or you have to rent a vacuum base core drill with the vacuum pump. On the top of the rental core drill you supplied a link to is a screw jack that you can put a wooden 4” x 4” on and raise it up to an overhang or ceiling above. You can use a 2” x 4” but they will warp or give out when you jam the bit. We only used four by fours after a few mishaps and tightened them up against the cement ceiling above very well.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Curious why winniweld is hesitant to use plates as client requested?
Because the size plate you need to hold a hollow three-inch verticle is something like eight inches in diameter, and 3/4" thick. If you go less as most would you can just stand there and bend the vertical with one hand. Most would use 3/16" maybe 1/4" and go 5" in diameter. And that will just bend if someone falls into it. I would posthole dig next to the ramp and just extend the 3" verticals. The bottom protruding rail that goes right by the ground to keep the wheelchair wheels from hitting the verticles and protect the hands of the people in the wheelchair, will cover the gap between the ramp and railing. I would also put a few tabs on the three-inch verticals and anchor them into the side of the ramp here and there. The downside to that is if they poured a footing and the footing starts near the surface you may have to core into it a little.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
I just agreed to do a set of rails at a local hotel. The owner wants to match what’s on the pool deck which is 3” square posts and 1-1/2 pipe handrails offset from the posts. There is about 150 feet linear of rails to do. Three sets on a 2 step stair case and the rest on a multiple turn ADA ramp ramp with a bump out section that gets used as a smoking area. I’ve done a lot of rails in the past but always for residential applications. I had planned initially to rent a core drill and go that way as that’s how all the commercial rails I see around here are done but the customer wants to have base plates and bolts mostly so repairs can be made in the future as we have pretty long winters and ramps and stairs spend a lot of time with salt on them . I’ve always been really happy with the rigidity of the rails I’ve done in the past using base plates and full sleeve wedge anchors but I’m now thinking of trying to convince the customer to go with the coring. My questions are how big a hole to set the 3” square posts? How close could that hole be made to the edge of the stairs/ramp, how close to a corner? And how deep should each hole be to secure each post? How much time to make each hole? this is a pretty convoluted ramp layout, I’m looking at 33 posts being set into concrete and I’d need to estimate the cost difference between base plates and coring. The core drill they rent at my local Lowe’s is a husqvarna https://rentals.lowes.com/item/Core%...%20Stand/24527
If they do not mind you putting a quarter-inch double expansion anchor into the cement ramp to hold down the core drill base, you can do that. You just put in a quarter-inch double expansion anchor a threaded rod a washer and a nut then put the core drill over the rod and put another washer and nut and you can core away. When you are done you can just remove the top part of the double expansion and fill in the hole.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Is your chart/calculator for bollards? Those specs seem extreme for fencing or railing. What size plate would be needed for a 50 foot light post? Around here it appears 12 inch sq by 1.5 inch thick works. Surely .25 to .375 thick would be sufficient at 6 inch wide rectangle and good welds.
But even at the 3/ 4" plate, why the hesitancy to use plates?
I just agreed to do a set of rails at a local hotel. The owner wants to match what’s on the pool deck which is 3” square posts and 1-1/2 pipe handrails offset from the posts. There is about 150 feet linear of rails to do. Three sets on a 2 step stair case and the rest on a multiple turn ADA ramp ramp with a bump out section that gets used as a smoking area. I’ve done a lot of rails in the past but always for residential applications. I had planned initially to rent a core drill and go that way as that’s how all the commercial rails I see around here are done but the customer wants to have base plates and bolts mostly so repairs can be made in the future as we have pretty long winters and ramps and stairs spend a lot of time with salt on them . I’ve always been really happy with the rigidity of the rails I’ve done in the past using base plates and full sleeve wedge anchors but I’m now thinking of trying to convince the customer to go with the coring. My questions are how big a hole to set the 3” square posts? How close could that hole be made to the edge of the stairs/ramp, how close to a corner? And how deep should each hole be to secure each post? How much time to make each hole? this is a pretty convoluted ramp layout, I’m looking at 33 posts being set into concrete and I’d need to estimate the cost difference between base plates and coring. The core drill they rent at my local Lowe’s is a husqvarna https://rentals.lowes.com/item/Core%...%20Stand/24527
Yes a 4 1/2 bit will do that. Especially if the post has a radiused edge.
The drills on stands are good , usually more trouble than their worth dickin about , your better off hand held.
BTW I never bolt the stand down , just stand on the base and take it gentle to start with. But I rarely use a stand .
If the concrete is in really good nick a 6" centre line for your holes should be fine .
Depth of 5" should do also , thats 5 in concrete do not count any tile and bed .
Note centre line and depth is for good concrete.
On a ramp as opposed to on flat treads of a stairway , you will have to drill by hand .
Easy enough to do but I would not like to learn core drilling on a ramped 4 1/2 hole .....
As the others said thats one heavy duty handrail , seems a bit over engineered . Still as you said they are trying to match existing .
Depending on what a drill costs over the pond your way ( and future jobs ) it seems it may justify a drill , hiring never made much sense to me . Keeping in mind you have 33 base plates to cut and weld with plenty welded at the ramp angle .
Plumbing up a post in a core hole is so much faster and accurate that shimming base plates .
But
As I said its not the ideal job to learn on .
But (and I havent seen the job) core drilling if the concrete allows would be my first and second choise .
Curious why winniweld is hesitant to use plates as client requested?
Cost , finish , quality and speed .
If you think you can do a job in a better way , suggesting that way is respectful to your client.
But every different way has pros and cons .
Not knowing winniwelds setup makes it is difficult to surmise anything. The condition of the concrete would dictate ease of plate usage... Dip and valleys translate to rails. But a string and laser level will help tackle those unknowns and find pitch.
I can secure 4 bolts faster than corin and pourin 'em.
33 plates is nothing to weld in shop or onsite...depending on setup. 3or4 hours work? Plates, welding and bolts is the only addition expense. Offset by cement and drill rental.
Cost might equal out with increased manpower and cleanup time. Rental and accessories And wetsuit. Will dust impact the pool?
Quality is not lost with plates. And is a subjective term. Some client don't like metal post growing out of there concrete nor the grout ring. "Can you cover that"
Finish again relative. What is the client expecting... In this case a match. And for repair purposes. Sounds like they know "wazup".
I have lost potential clients for suggesting alternatives. Some feel challenged or "know what they want". Not suggestion you not present alternatives, but there is a chance a client may not appreciate it.
If it is all concrete, then i would have no issue with plates. Though it is nice to not have to add plates.
Irony. Last week, I visited a site for a pipe rail build. Part sits on an 8 inch curb beveled to 6" at the top. I suggested plating to the back side of the wall, since there wont be much meat around the hole and if it gets hit the concrete will break. Also, the planted a handicapped post in the middle on the run embedded in the concrete. It was to be mounted to the back side. They said nope, engineer is not making any revisions... Ok, I will proceed with a broken run and an extra hole cored.
Not knowing winniwelds setup makes it is difficult to surmise anything. The condition of the concrete would dictate ease of plate usage... Dip and valleys translate to rails. But a string and laser level will help tackle those unknowns and find pitch.
True without seeing the job , you cannot 100% which is the most appropriate method.
Originally Posted by tapwelder
I can secure 4 bolts faster than corin and pourin 'em.
33 plates is nothing to weld in shop or onsite...depending on setup. 3or4 hours work? Plates, welding and bolts is the only addition expense. Offset by cement and drill rental.
True, 4 bolts are generally quicker , especially on a smooth flat surface . As the surface that is local to the plate gets more uneven , coring closes the gap . If the surface is rough you may have to sparge under plate , not a big deal but time again. Some times say in a balcony the surface may be lovely and smooth and level but with quite a fall on it ... back to sparging.
You still have the material in plates and labour in welding up your selve.
Probobly not relevant in this application , but we do exclusively Balustrading. If its a concrete balcony or stairs and it is tiled , you should not bolt ontop of tiles . They maycrack during drilling, tightening or long term due to dynamic loads ie human impact or wind. If your going to base plate it should be done prior to tiling. A railing installer cannot see how well its been tiled or any voids in glue or bed.
Originally Posted by tapwelder
Cost might equal out with increased manpower and cleanup time. Rental and accessories And wetsuit. Will dust impact the pool?
Over here at least , hiring a core drill and bit , rarely is a good economic decision. Everyone has a masonary drill. Unused bolts can be used on the next one , unused grout in an opened bag need far more care and has a shelf life.
The dust from a few base plates should not worry a pool , slurry from a core hole is a far bigger deal .
Originally Posted by tapwelder
Quality is not lost with plates. And is a subjective term. Some client don't like metal post growing out of there concrete nor the grout ring. "Can you cover that"
We do not do any steel , only stainless or aluminium . We never core drill without a powdercoated cover (ally) or a pressed Stainless core cover .
Originally Posted by tapwelder
Finish again relative. What is the client expecting... In this case a match. And for repair purposes. Sounds like they know "wazup".
Finish is subjective and ultimately the clients decsion . Its their place and if they want to match ... matched it is . A different style install can and in most cases looks like an add on.
Originally Posted by tapwelder
I have lost potential clients for suggesting alternatives. Some feel challenged or "know what they want". Not suggestion you not present alternatives, but there is a chance a client may not appreciate it.
If it is all concrete, then i would have no issue with plates. Though it is nice to not have to add plates.
That can happen , but unless your dealing with an unreasonable person , most people at least listen to your POV .
If its purely an athetic thing , hey its their house their choice.
Its been my experience that most intractable clients are asking for something you actually disagree with outside of looks. Usually functionality, strucually or code related.
Irony. Last week, I visited a site for a pipe rail build. Part sits on an 8 inch curb beveled to 6" at the top. I suggested plating to the back side of the wall, since there wont be much meat around the hole and if it gets hit the concrete will break. Also, the planted a handicapped post in the middle on the run embedded in the concrete. It was to be mounted to the back side. They said nope, engineer is not making any revisions... Ok, I will proceed with a broken run and an extra hole cored.
Pretty much all railing in a vehicular enviroment are base plated . Repair is much simplier .
Just replying publicly to a couple of messages :
If its a concrete balc and going to be baseplated for what ever reason our procedure is to prior to waterproofing or tiling we will install our rods (always a chemsetted Stainless allthread) we dont use expanding masonary anchors. We then bolt down (finger tight) a "Can" the same shape and size as the base plate we are using. The tiler tiles up to can . When he is done we remove cans and fill between conrete and top of tiles with non shrink grout. When cured we the install balustrading . Yes a few more trips but that is just the price of doing a better job than the rest of the mob. You can avoid all this by coring though.
Same procedure with a composite deck , ie timber joists with compressed sheeting , waterproofing and then tiled.
On bigger jobs the most common reason why we base plate is the engineer not wanting us to cut through his reo .
If were to suggest a better way to a client, I would rarely suggest coring...it is inconvenient for the client. It is convenient for the installer.
If it was for my convenience and speed I'd use baseplates every time,
I used baseplates for this Chippendale railing, but only because I wasn't gonna core a 4" square post.
It's so fast to plop the railing down and drill a couple holes and throw some expansion anchors in, but to me, I don't see that as quality at all, I've only done that when necessary.
Fabrication is easier when you're coring, true, and install is way more flexible, you can do a lot with leveling a rail that's cored, with baseplates of u make a small mistake, you're stuck with it.
If it was for my convenience and speed I'd use baseplates every time,
I used baseplates for this Chippendale railing, but only because I wasn't gonna core a 4" square post.
It's so fast to plop the railing down and drill a couple holes and throw some expansion anchors in, but to me, I don't see that as quality at all, I've only done that when necessary.
Fabrication is easier when you're coring, true, and install is way more flexible, you can do a lot with leveling a rail that's cored, with baseplates of u make a small mistake, you're stuck with it.
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
I should modify this and say that for speed of install, I'd use baseplates, for speed of fabrication I'd core drill
Is your chart/calculator for bollards? Those specs seem extreme for fencing or railing. What size plate would be needed for a 50 foot light post? Around here it appears 12 inch sq by 1.5 inch thick works. Surely .25 to .375 thick would be sufficient at 6 inch wide rectangle and good welds.
But even at the 3/ 4" plate, why the hesitancy to use plates?
They often pour a huge cube of cement with large diameter studs set into the cement rather deep under those lights. The bases of the light posts are usually castings that have gussets near the bolts so you can get away with that kind of sized plate. But for handrails, you need a large plate. A 1 5/8" O.D. tube or 1 1/4" pipe calls for a 5/8" thick plate five inches in diameter. And if that five-inch plate goes onto a cement walk that has been patched it cracks the patch if you put pressure on the rail, of this I am sure. And even using the Hilti injection epoxy with stainless studs you can loosen the studs by applying the force that falling into the rail would apply. So if you want to use plates they have got to be big and thick.
Compare things you have done in a shop with a three-foot bar and quarter-inch material. The quarter-inch material just gives with a three-foot bar, so does a quarter-inch base plate.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Reply
Originally Posted by wb4rt
