Rod type for stick welding

[ttoks]

Thanks again. It might be wise for me to invest in some decent rod containers as this isn’t my day job and it would be wasteful to not look after the rods.

just a cheap sealable plastic containers from bigW or something will be fine, as for the rod oven, nothing wrong with bakings rods in the kitchen oven when you need to use them, just put em in as high as the oven go's for an hour before you use them, the Mrs might not be to thrilled but just tell her they're baked sticks for the local bunnings sizzle.

[Louie1961]

6010 and 6011 can actually get TOO dry. There are a number of posts on here relative to actually soaking your 601X rods in water to make them run better.

[Willie B]

6010 and 6011 can actually get TOO dry. There are a number of posts on here relative to actually soaking your 601X rods in water to make them run better.

I'm thinking New England that isn't going to be a problem. Everything rusts, even indoors. I think there is some moisture in the flux, almost always.

[husq2100]

I'm thinking New England that isn't going to be a problem. Everything rusts, even indoors. I think there is some moisture in the flux, almost always.

Shouldnt be a problem for me either, lucky to get below 50-60% relative humidity in our dry season (winter)

[Louie1961]

I am too lazy to search, but I think it was CEP that used to soak his 6010's and he lives in the PNW, where he has pictures of him pouring water out of a can of 7018's before welding with them. So I wouldn't be too sure about that Willie.

[Willie B]

Shouldnt be a problem for me either, lucky to get below 50-60% relative humidity in our dry season (winter)

I bought in 1974 a Twentieth Century claimed to do everything. 295 amp, 100% duty cycle. The manual that came with it recommended using 5/32 or 3/16" 6011 as cutting equipment. They suggested for cutting to soak the rod in water. I found it fine for scrapping an old car, but cutting anything I was going to use again it was too ragged a cut.

I've only used water to try to prevent 1/16" rod from burning off in the middle. I'll classify 1/16" stick rod as a fail in general.

[Louie1961]

OK, I lied. Here is one of the posts he made https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/4...oak+6010+water

[husq2100]

Ok so I might be doing some more welding tomorrow. It will be placing a small 150 PFC (6” structural channel) on top of the posts. The flange is the same size as the post , so it will be two horizontal butt welds on sides and overhead fillet on ends (the channel is longer than the 2 posts are apart that it sits on).

I picked up some 7016 3/32 and still have the 6011 3/32 and 7018 1/8.

Same little 140 amp welder will go with me.

I’m thinking maybe the 6011 for the horizontal butt joints for more penetration??

Not sure I’ll do the overhead fillets lol ( our usual Fab guy will be their with his flux core GMAW.

[MinnesotaDave]

Ok so I might be doing some more welding tomorrow. It will be placing a small 150 PFC (6” structural channel) on top of the posts. The flange is the same size as the post , so it will be two horizontal butt welds on sides and overhead fillet on ends (the channel is longer than the 2 posts are apart that it sits on).

I picked up some 7016 3/32 and still have the 6011 3/32 and 7018 1/8.

Same little 140 amp welder will go with me.

I’m thinking maybe the 6011 for the horizontal butt joints for more penetration??

Not sure I’ll do the overhead fillets lol ( our usual Fab guy will be their with his flux core GMAW.

Overhead fillets run the same as regular horizontal/flat ones.
Just leave the amps the same, remember to keep pushing the rod up there (easy to forget actually).

[ttoks]

Ok so I might be doing some more welding tomorrow. It will be placing a small 150 PFC (6” structural channel) on top of the posts. The flange is the same size as the post , so it will be two horizontal butt welds on sides and overhead fillet on ends (the channel is longer than the 2 posts are apart that it sits on).

I picked up some 7016 3/32 and still have the 6011 3/32 and 7018 1/8.

Same little 140 amp welder will go with me.

I’m thinking maybe the 6011 for the horizontal butt joints for more penetration??

Not sure I’ll do the overhead fillets lol ( our usual Fab guy will be their with his flux core GMAW.

its up to what you feel comfortable with, I'd use the 7016 for both though, if your worries about penetration put a groove in the horizontal with a grinder first and do do an extra pass, i find 7016/7018 easier overhead than 6011/6010 because you dont need to do any rod manipulation, once you get the rod angle, travel speed and arc length right you just hold it steady.

[husq2100]

Well a got to do a few horizontal butt joins. I used the 7016 3/32 at about 75 amps. I did have a go at a overhead fillet, but after grinding out twice I let the Fab guy do it with his flux core. We have a crane coming and can’t stuff about too much

Definitely need more practice at all facets of Stick!

Btw the website software turns my pics on side - 🤷🏻*♂️

[Willie B]

I am too lazy to search, but I think it was CEP that used to soak his 6010's and he lives in the PNW, where he has pictures of him pouring water out of a can of 7018's before welding with them. So I wouldn't be too sure about that Willie.

Yeahbut, He scoffed at 7018 being dry. He showed his system for drying 7018 in the rain, or old. He'd start with a new soggy rod, deliberately stick it, wait until the steam stopped & turned to smoke. The steel core was red by then. It was then dry enough to use.

I don't know who to believe. What I know as fact: XXX18 rod is low hydrogen. The filler in it is nothing unusual, roughly 70,000 tensile. The noticeable character in the product, whether 7018, or 11018, is the flux in it contributes little hydrogen.

Other last digit rods include cellulose, a hydrocarbon. As it breaks down, it supplies hydrogen to the molten weld.

Hydrogen molecules travel freely through molten steel. When they reach steel that never was molten, they can't travel further. They form a layer, partially separating weld from workpiece.

Very knowledgeable people say this isn't usually important. I'll disagree. Every weld is important. Most of us don't have capability to say where a weld is critical, I choose to use best practice to improve my odds. With my lack of knowledge I can see no occasion where I would deliberately introduce water to improve a weld. If my flux were burning too far up the rod, I'd use a bigger rod, or turn down the amps.

[MinnesotaDave]

I don't know who to believe. What I know as fact: XXX18 rod is low hydrogen. The filler in it is nothing unusual, roughly 70,000 tensile. The noticeable character in the product, whether 7018, or 11018, is the flux in it contributes little hydrogen.

Other last digit rods include cellulose, a hydrocarbon. As it breaks down, it supplies hydrogen to the molten weld.

Hydrogen molecules travel freely through molten steel. When they reach steel that never was molten, they can't travel further. They form a layer, partially separating weld from workpiece.

Very knowledgeable people say this isn't usually important. I'll disagree. Every weld is important. Most of us don't have capability to say where a weld is critical, I choose to use best practice to improve my odds. With my lack of knowledge I can see no occasion where I would deliberately introduce water to improve a weld. If my flux were burning too far up the rod, I'd use a bigger rod, or turn down the amps.

Hey Willie, I would tend to respectfully disagree on a few points.

The xxx18 rod itself is not low-hydrogen unless it is stored properly to maintain that rating (or reconditioned).
The flux is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs/adsorbs water (never could keep straight which that is - I'm no chemist).
The water is chemically bonded and it takes a lot of energy to let go of it.
The welding arc can disassociate the molecular hydrogen into atomic hydrogen.

Hydrogen molecules travel freely through molten steel. When they reach steel that never was molten, they can't travel further. They form a layer, partially separating weld from workpiece.

Atomic hydrogen moves through steel - when trapped at boundaries, and form molecular hydrogen, they create stress.

A couple pertinent excerpts:
"Owing to their small size, hydrogen atoms can diffuse interstitially...[snip]. As a consequence, hydrogen atoms are relatively free to move around in the lattice and can recombine, forming hydrogen molecules in the mass of the solid. The onset of an internal pressure can undermine the stability of the metal lattice. The outcome is the phenomenon of hydrogen embrittlement, well known in corrosion, that leads to serious degradation and even to the collapse of the metal structure."

"At 220°F, hydrogen diffuses through mild steel weld metal at the rate of one inch in approximately 48 hours.
However, at 450°F, the diffusion rate increases exponentially, as hydrogen diffuses a distance of approximately one inch per hour."
And:
"At 800°F (425°C), the hydrogen will move through the steel at almost twice the rate of 600°F (315°C). "

Taking the first set of numbers of 220°F and 450°F, 600°F must allow hydrogen to move pretty quickly. and 800°F is yet twice as fast.

Very knowledgeable people say this isn't usually important. I'll disagree. Every weld is important. Most of us don't have capability to say where a weld is critical, I choose to use best practice to improve my odds.

"High strength steels with tensile strengths above 130,000 psi and a hardness of Rockwell C35 or greater are the most prone to hydrogen embrittlement.
Steels below these tensile and hardness levels are generally immune to hydrogen embrittlement."

(I've seen that number as high as 145,000 psi)

So in my humble opinion, for 36kpsi mild steel, it's not very important

[Willie B]

Hey Willie, I would tend to respectfully disagree on a few points.

The xxx18 rod itself is not low-hydrogen unless it is stored properly to maintain that rating (or reconditioned).
The flux is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs/adsorbs water (never could keep straight which that is - I'm no chemist).
The water is chemically bonded and it takes a lot of energy to let go of it.
The welding arc can disassociate the molecular hydrogen into atomic hydrogen.



Atomic hydrogen moves through steel - when trapped at boundaries, and form molecular hydrogen, they create stress.

A couple pertinent excerpts:
"Owing to their small size, hydrogen atoms can diffuse interstitially...[snip]. As a consequence, hydrogen atoms are relatively free to move around in the lattice and can recombine, forming hydrogen molecules in the mass of the solid. The onset of an internal pressure can undermine the stability of the metal lattice. The outcome is the phenomenon of hydrogen embrittlement, well known in corrosion, that leads to serious degradation and even to the collapse of the metal structure."

"At 220°F, hydrogen diffuses through mild steel weld metal at the rate of one inch in approximately 48 hours.
However, at 450°F, the diffusion rate increases exponentially, as hydrogen diffuses a distance of approximately one inch per hour."
And:
"At 800°F (425°C), the hydrogen will move through the steel at almost twice the rate of 600°F (315°C). "

Taking the first set of numbers of 220°F and 450°F, 600°F must allow hydrogen to move pretty quickly. and 800°F is yet twice as fast.



"High strength steels with tensile strengths above 130,000 psi and a hardness of Rockwell C35 or greater are the most prone to hydrogen embrittlement.
Steels below these tensile and hardness levels are generally immune to hydrogen embrittlement."

(I've seen that number as high as 145,000 psi)

So in my humble opinion, for 36kpsi mild steel, it's not very important

Thank you for that in depth explanation. I wonder then, why anyone ever uses 7018? I'd be surprised if I have ever welded a 130,000 PSI tensile steel. Even truck frames are only 80,000, or in a few cases 100,000.

[MinnesotaDave]

Thank you for that in depth explanation. I wonder then, why anyone ever uses 7018? I'd be surprised if I have ever welded a 130,000 PSI tensile steel. Even truck frames are only 80,000, or in a few cases 100,000.

In my opinion, it's such a common rod for pros to use that it gathered up a cult following of almost everyone else

But really, since it has most of the properties anyone would like: easy running, works vertical up pretty good, mildly tolerates imperfectly cleaned steel, high ductility for great impact properties (even when "wet"), etc., it's really just a great all-around rod.

[Willie B]

In my opinion, it's such a common rod for pros to use that it gathered up a cult following of almost everyone else

But really, since it has most of the properties anyone would like: easy running, works vertical up pretty good, mildly tolerates imperfectly cleaned steel, high ductility for great impact properties (even when "wet"), etc., it's really just a great all-around rod.

Do pros weld 130,000+ tensile steel often enough to discuss? The very few times I have even discussed high tensile steel welding, I was ruled out as "only big city welding shops have the technology" Last time the subject came up was oversize shelf brackets to support a six foot wide "deck" over garage doors at the over garage apartment my son lived in beside his father in law's house.

Those brackets were so critical, they had to be engineered, then sent to NYC to be fabricated. They were then sent to Utica NY to be hot dip galvanized. 5 years into the process, there is only a framework of a deck. I acknowledge, it is the most overengineered, under framed structure in history!

[Welder Dave]

High strength specialty rods have a lot of uses. Broken bolts, high carbon steel, unknown and difficult to welds steels. This is just an example but they are in the same league as 312 stainless that a few members on here swear by for difficult to weld material.

https://www.grainger.ca/en/product/E...ALQBLU53212532

[MinnesotaDave]

Do pros weld 130,000+ tensile steel often enough to discuss? The very few times I have even discussed high tensile steel welding, I was ruled out as "only big city welding shops have the technology" Last time the subject came up was oversize shelf brackets to support a six foot wide "deck" over garage doors at the over garage apartment my son lived in beside his father in law's house.

Those brackets were so critical, they had to be engineered, then sent to NYC to be fabricated. They were then sent to Utica NY to be hot dip galvanized. 5 years into the process, there is only a framework of a deck. I acknowledge, it is the most overengineered, under framed structure in history!

In my opinion, it's not so much what they weld, it's more about what rod was specd for the job.

I figure that since 7018 has so many pre-established written procedures, it just became the go-to rod rather than going through the testing and verification process for something else.

That's just a theory though.

I remember reading an engineering paper on how many engineers call out 7018 because they need its ductile result. But because it's a low-hi rod, people just automatically figure that was the reason it needed to be used.

[arcflash]

I remember running 10018 and 12018 back when I was a kid but can't remember what it was on. Never heard back so it must have held!

[Bonzoo]

root it with a hot 6011. finish up with the 7018. Rainforest welding

[Willie B]

In my opinion, it's not so much what they weld, it's more about what rod was specd for the job.

I figure that since 7018 has so many pre-established written procedures, it just became the go-to rod rather than going through the testing and verification process for something else.

That's just a theory though.

I remember reading an engineering paper on how many engineers call out 7018 because they need its ductile result. But because it's a low-hi rod, people just automatically figure that was the reason it needed to be used.

I wonder how many weld failures happen because of hydrogen, and how many are because of low ductility.

Some old procedures in old welding manuals & in old filler manufacturers instruction call for "buttering" the faces of the cast' or high strength steel with 312 stainless for its ductility, then fill with another filler.

7018 is well regarded for ductility, but I don't know how it compares to 6010, or best running rod ever; Messer, 80TAC+.

[Louie1961]

Ok so is there a rule of thumb to choosing rod size? Ie plate thickness? joint type? (ignore my little welder output for this one)

And in what situation would you say choose to do a 6010/6011 root and cap out with 7018?

I don't know about anyone else, but I try to not select a rod sized bigger than the base metal I am welding. If you want some tough practice (and maybe impractical practice as well) weld some 1/8 inch lap joints with a 1/8th inch rod. You really have to be able to see and control the puddle to not make a mess of it. Realistically that kind of joint will go easier with a 3/32 rod. For my home hobby projects, I don't use rods larger than 1/8. I just don't have the skill to carry more metal like you would in a larger rod. For that same reason I rarely use 1/8th inch rod for out of position welds. I usually defer to 3/32 rods just to make my life easier. Either that or I switch to the MIG and use flux core and/or dual shield depending on how critical the weld is.

[MinnesotaDave]

I agree with Louie, stay with rods the same diameter, or smaller, than the thickness of steel.

6010/11 then 7018 has many uses.

A few are: large gap to fill; dirty, rusty or painted metal.

I like 6010/11 for running vertical down on a gap. Zipper it closed, then run 7108 vertical up.

[William McCormick]

Hey all, I have a little job to do on short notice, figure id give stick a go. I have a little 140amp DC inverter. I will be welding 3/16" mild steel SHS to 1/4" flat plate mild steel (just an over sized end cap)

Fillet weld.

Here are my rod choices:

https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/we...mma-electrodes

Best I can tell by what I see you guys code your rods are - 7016, 6013 and 7018.

I would like to know what rod type, dia and amps to use.

cheers
Serg

I would get these in the 2.5 mm or 3/32" size. They are our 7016 3/32 rods.

https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/we...-16-electrodes

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[MISSING LINK]

I know the fire fight will come at me. But..... I do use 6013 to repair mild steel pipe hand rails that are subject to servere vibrations. It seems that with 3/32 7018 they crack the weld or just next to it. But the ones I repaired with 3/32 6013 hold up. My guess is the 7018 doesnt let things flex at the same rate as 6013. Low tensile pipe, low tensile electrode? I dunno.. I have even field repaired some hyd piping on a excavator boom and the 6013 held, the previous shop repair with 7018 failed. Like I said, I can't explain it or condone others doing it out of legal reasons. But for me it worked when nothing else did........