weld repair

[Birdhunter1]

I have to repair someone elses previous repair on my front end loaer moutn frame.

This one is the wider view of what is going on:


Down at the bottom:


Crack photo #1:


Crack photo #2:


Crack photo #3:

[383bigblock]

I was waiting for the electron micrograph photo but I guess your working on it. Looks like you'll be grinding that bad boy out. It looks like they undercut it too much thinning it out at the top of the weld. Though it looks repairable.

Be sure to show the after pics.

Michael

[lewray]

[QUOTE=383bigblock]I was waiting for the electron micrograph photo but I guess your working on it. Looks like you'll be grinding that bad boy out. It looks like they undercut it too much thinning it out at the top of the weld. Though it looks repairable.


Those are some dang good photos....I wish I could do that.


[/QUOT

[Birdhunter1]

The work: The bottom piece is the top of a square tube (2"x 4") that is 1/4" or 5/16" thick, the piece teeing into it is 1/4". All mild steel.
Weaponry available is my Lincoln AC 225-S (american made version), I'm thinking grind it out real well. It will all be flat work so I am thinking a 6011 root pass at about 100 amps then 2-7018 over the top of it, or should I do a 7018 single pass. What amperage do yall recommend for the 7018 passes?

[zapster]

Looks like the weld itself did hold up..
The materal around the weld is a diffrent story..


Grind the cracks and fill...

David R or Tozzi Or Hammack will have input here..

7018 is not a bad chioce ...

The orig weld held..
Maybe wanna go over that one more time also..

...zap!

[Birdhunter1]

My wife got me a digital camera for my birthday 3 weeks ago. a guy at work taught me everything I know about it so far, including how to take up close shots using the macro feature.

It loosk like the guys used a mig without enough juice behind it, but that's my opinion.

[WelderBoy]

Birdhunter1, it depends on what size 7018.

For 3/32" use about 75-90amps. Test on some similar material first.
For 1/8" use 90-105amps. Once again, test on similar material first.

Don't use anything bigger than that. I'd recommend 3/32" for the 6011 and 7018. Use about 80amps for the 6011 if it is 3/32".

[WelderBoy]

It loosk like the guys used a mig without enough juice behind it, but that's my opinion.

No, looks like they know how to put a weld down as pretty as a horse puts crap down. Looks like the welder had the juice, but they didn't have any right welding on equipment with their skills.

Make sure there is NO trace of that weld left. And i'd remove a little steel from the top and bottom as well. Don't trust the steel that surrounds that weld after the last weld was put down. It could have a bad HAZ and could crack around even the best of repairs. Even if you have to do a couple passes to fill the new gap.

[Birdhunter1]

The 6011's and 7018's I have at the shop are all 1/8" rods.
To me those welds look more like 'lets put alot of stuff on here and that ought to do it. It wraps under the front and continues on behind what I have shown you, but to get to that requires a whole lot more work and since the weld behind that piece is not cracked I'm leaving it for now.

[WelderBoy]

It wraps under the front and continues on behind what I have shown you, but to get to that requires a whole lot more work and since the weld behind that piece is not cracked I'm leaving it for now.

1/8" will be fine. Don't use 80amps for that 1/8" 6011. Use 95-110amps for that size, maybe more.

Well, if you want to repair it like it was repaired before, leave the old weld on the back. Or else it will be in your best interest to get it all out and start from scratch.

[Birdhunter1]

Well, if you want to repair it like it was repaired before, leave the old weld on the back. Or else it will be in your best interest to get it all out and start from scratch.

I had a feeling somebody would say that, that thing is a PITA to get on and off. So about 100 amps +/- on the 6011 and 7018?

[David R]

If all you have is AC, 6013 may be easier. It will be strong enough and probably a better weld than if you use 7018 on AC. At least you can take the piece off and repair it on the bench..

1/8 6013 if you use it, 115 amps, 7018 maybe 120 to 130 amps. I can't be sure on AC.

David
We want to see pics when its done.

[WelderBoy]

I had a feeling somebody would say that, that thing is a PITA to get on and off.

It's your equipment, you make the call. You asked for our advice, I think.

It ain't always easy, but do need it to break again before you take it apart and do it the right way?

[olddad]

Since it's your equipment it's an easy call. Besides, you said the weld on the back is still good and the outside weld is what takes all the pressure on those anyway... Air arc sure woulda been nice though...lol.

[LarryM]

Birdhunter,

I'd also add a rectangle gusset behind the vertical plate, to help keep the pipe mount from twisting backward. You could cut it to end in front of the rear mounting bolt. Lay it in at an angle pointing down toward the tractor. The outside edge right behind the pipe mount.

Good luck
Larry

[Birdhunter1]

This exact same support on the front part of this is also on the backside (towards rear of tractor). The back part (towards rear of tractor is a factory weld in good shape still, the only one that broke is this one on the front side. When I said the backside in the earlier post I meant under the tractors transmission. Looking at the frame on tis again it won't be as hard to take off as I originally thought, I thought te entire frame was one piece but this section unblots from the rest of it so it wll come off and get repaired. So you guys think a 6013 will work?

[WelderBoy]

So you guys think a 6013 will work?

Yes. That steel is probably rated at around 40,000psi tensile strength. 6013 if done properly exceeds 60,000psi tensile strength and is ductile. It'll be plenty strong.

[Birdhunter1]

10-4, thanks guys!
Welderboy, you gave the best advice.. "it's your equipment, when do you want to fix it again?"

It may be a few days before I get to it but I will post follow up pics.

[Hammack_Welding]

First thing you need to do is get ALL of that old crap out of there be it you use a torch or grinder. Get it all cleaned up to a good joint then you can tell what you need to do. If it means cutting a good weld and having to reweld it to get it cleaned up, then so be it. If you have any 7018AC then run it around 135 amps and weld it all back up. A 6013 will also work, but the 7018AC would be better. I personally am not much on running a 6011/6010 root in front of a 7018 on equipment. I prefer to run a 7018 through out. ~Jackson

[WelderBoy]

I personally am not much on running a 6011/6010 root in front of a 7018 on equipment. I prefer to run a 7018 through out.

Why is that?

[DDA52]

It is just stronger that way. If you can get to both sides of cracks and must use 6011, back gouge the 6011 bead out when you do the other side. It will end up being a better weldment that way. That is for most equipment welds, whether arms, buckets, whatever you have that takes a beating. On a non-beat-upon weld, leave it like it is and it will be fine.

[lewray]

Great stuff here

I just want to find the "M" button on my digital camera so I can post pics like that.

Seriously good stuff on the 6013 and 7018 pros and cons and everything else.

Not too long ago I had almost the same repair on a blue color tractor also.
I GMAWed it w/ spray xfer ...............and again wish I could have posted pics of them. I believe this particular guy was being too rough on his equipment because he kept bringing his stuff back for more welding with other areas broke.

Look forward to the results.

[Hammack_Welding]

Why is that?

WelderBoy, I personally feel it is stronger. A 6011/6010 is great for an open root on pipe. On Equipment, the majority of the welds you will make need a low hydrogen rod for the crack resistance. I just never felt that running a "weaker" rod as a basis for a weld that needs every ounce of strength it can get as the best course of action. If you are doing repair work then you don't need the extra penetration of a cellulose rod. You just take a little longer on prep whether it's gouging or beveling to get the 100% penetration you need. When I was starting out, an oldtimer was welding Hydraulic line on a cotton bale press for the cotton gin my dad ran years ago. I asked him why he didn't use a 6010 root, and he replied with "because of the constant vibration, and jarring these joints will take they need to be 7018 through out to keep them from cracking. If I run 6010 as the root, or first layer, and it cracks what do you think is going to happen to the passes above it." Well it made sense. That guy gave me some pointers, and I practiced on the scrap as he worked, and he even let me weld two joints with Dad's permission. One I rooted with a 6010 and filled and capped with a 7018, and the other I ran 7018 all the way just like he showed me. I had to reweld the joint I rooted with the 6010 a couple years later. The 7018 joint was still solid when they replaced the press nearly ten years later. That situation kind of stuck with me........

[WelderBoy]

Hammack, Although I usually gouge the 6010 out of the back after I weld it when possible, sometimes I don't. Whether it not be possible, or if the engineers don't want it. We use it at work all day for open roots on everything from crane mounts, to seams in the hull of a ship, to top plate handrail. I don't know why an engineer would call for it on a huge crane mount if it could have flaws like that.

I believe your story, don't get me wrong. And your post has got me thinking hard about whether I want to leave any 6010 in a structural weld in the future when doing work for my own business. The thing I don't understand is that most steel is rated at around 35,000-45,000psi tensile strength. I see no reason why 7018 would have an advantage in the root over 6010. Is it more ductile? 6010 does seem to be more brittle and I know 7018 is very flexible. But I've never heard of a crack starting from deep in the center of a weld. I know a weld engineer is going to reply and put me on my *** on this subject. So let me have it!

[Hammack_Welding]

WelderBoy, I honestly don't know. I have never had any training or school as far as welding or metals etc... I could be totally wrong, but go off of what I have learned from my own personal experience. I honestly would like to hear what a weld engineer would have to say on the topic. as far as a 7018, I just pretty much know that it is a better choice when you need something resistant to cracking. As far as a crack starting deep in the center of a weld goes, I always thought that is where they would originate especially if you did not achieve full penetration. I guess it would depend more on how the forces were applied to the weld as to where a failure would start.