Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 164

Thread: Torque Amp

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    4,250
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    I am going to test the two wrenches against each other first. Then do some testing with different length crows feet.

    Yea, I am not sure of any formula until I actually test it out. Crane Builders, building architects, automotive engineers, they don't need to check it out, I do though.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    Yes ok whatever
    12V71 said he compared his Snapon tools with a Snapon calibrator

    The fact that he has the best torque tools gives confidence.

    MAC, your method of tool length times 0.8 seems to be dead nuts. No?

    Edit: stay crazy
    You would be harder to understand if you were insane imo
    Like your work tho
    Last edited by Insaneride; 11-13-2020 at 11:06 PM.

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    I see what you are saying here regarding the angle of a crowsfoot or any other torque adapter, but a socket extension (bar with male/female square drive) has no effect on applied torque, only the length and/or angle of the torque adapter center to center. I've used Dave's formula for years and most equipment manuals have that same formula in their general specifications section.
    What I was attempting to communicate is that you lose the lever-action force the torque wrench adds by its length, that you get on top of the rotating torque action that would be present if the crow's foot and the torque wrench were inline with one another, and there was no socket extension.

    When you add the socket extension you have to brace the torque wrench head in order to turn the crow's foot so it is a whole other operation that relies on only rotational torque. As soon as you put them inline, remove the socket extension, you get the added force of the lever-action, on top of the rotational torque that we know drives the crow's foot when there is a 12" socket extension involved. Unless the orientation of the torque wrench, its angle, is not inline and extended away from the crow's foot. If the torque wrench is on an angle other than parallel and extended away from the crow's foot, you will be applying counter lever force that will fight against the rotational force.


    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    That's just crazy.

    What if one or both are out of calibration by say 10%. And also, one of them is out 10% negative and the other is out 10% positive then you will have a 20% error. Another great MAC, one could be broken or defective outa the box. Crude methods and acceptable methods of calibration have been shown. Please just keep it crazy. Your rhetoric can be difficult to read between the lines after lines.

    MAC, your simple method is easiest to use and hardest to forget

    LENGTH in feet (4' + 1.25 = 5.25) multiplied times the value displayed on tool result times 0.8 is faster easier than grabbing a scientific calculator
    No?

    I ordered two-beam type torque wrenches so I am not waiting for the pop or guessing. I will film them both simultaneously to see what happens as I try different-length crow's feet. They should arrive rather equal, and if there is a slight discrepancy I will note it and calibrate for it. Then I can switch the position of the two wrenches and check it again.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  4. Likes ronsii liked this post
  5. #79
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Central Wa. state
    Posts
    4,976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    I ordered two-beam type torque wrenches so I am not waiting for the pop or guessing. I will film them both simultaneously to see what happens as I try different-length crow's feet. They should arrive rather equal, and if there is a slight discrepancy I will note it and calibrate for it. Then I can switch the position of the two wrenches and check it again.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    Should have just asked. I have a Snap On 1/2" 250 ftlb. dial type rated for 1% accuracy. Would have loaned it for the price of shipping.

  6. Likes ronsii, Insaneride liked this post
  7. #80
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Imagine gears for a minute. The crow's foot being a certain sized gear. And the torque wrench another. Now the torque wrench gear is going to overlap the crow's foot gear by half of its diameter. If you spin the torque wrench gear with a motor shaft attached to the center of the gear, whatever torque the motor outputs is going to work on that crow's foot gear. Of course, the whole motor is going to move in a circular motion around the bolt we are trying to tighten as well but that is unimportant. This scenario would duplicate the torque wrench and the socket extension.

    But if you take your hand and try to turn that torque gear first from the farthest point from the crow's foot, you will have added leverage besides whatever torque you create. If you try to turn the torque wrench gear from the side closest to the crow's foot, you get an opposing force to the rotational force you are creating. The motor shaft scenario input to the center of the gear alleviates that positive and negative lever force.


    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    Last edited by William McCormick; 11-13-2020 at 11:56 PM.
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  8. #81
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    4,250
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Should have just asked. I have a Snap On 1/2" 250 ftlb. dial type rated for 1% accuracy. Would have loaned it for the price of shipping.

    A detail of your caiibration method shown previously would be valuable to insansaneride

    It may send wacky MAC on another Tangent the tho

    MACs method of total tool length (amp + torque tool) 5.25 feet times 0.8 seems to be dead on. No?

  9. #82
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Should have just asked. I have a Snap On 1/2" 250 ftlb. dial type rated for 1% accuracy. Would have loaned it for the price of shipping.

    Thank you man, I do appreciate that. But, I really am interested in two of the same wrenches battling each other. And I will switch their position to kill any doubt about any inaccuracies on their opposing scales, I will also test them equally against each other to make sure they are true to their scales. I am more interested in the principles of lever versus torque action, so I am looking for a difference not necessarily an exacting accuracy.


    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  10. Likes Insaneride, ronsii liked this post
  11. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    4,250
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    Thank you man, I do appreciate that. But, I really am interested in two of the same wrenches battling each other. And I will switch their position to kill any doubt about any inaccuracies on their opposing scales, I will also test them equally against each other to make sure they are true to their scales. I am more interested in the principles of lever versus torque action, so I am looking for a difference not necessarily an exacting accuracy.


    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    But MAC, but unless one or both are calibrated to a standard then yo u have an error. No

  12. #84
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    A detail of your caiibration method shown previously would be valuable to insansaneride

    It may send wacky MAC on another Tangent the tho

    MACs method of total tool length (amp + torque tool) 5.25 feet times 0.8 seems to be dead on. No?
    That formula is lacking an unknown. And that is what the lever adds to the rotational torque applied.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  13. #85
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    But MAC, but unless one or both are calibrated to a standard then yo u have an error. No

    The wrenches as long as they repeat, again and again, the same numbers, I am not worried about plus or minus 5 or even 10 percent. I am not trying to figure out what the torque is right now, just that there is a difference between rotational torque applied and added lever force applied above and beyond the rotational force.


    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  14. #86
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    4,250
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    The wrenches as long as they repeat, again and again, the same numbers, I am not worried about plus or minus 5 or even 10 percent. I am not trying to figure out what the torque is right now, just that there is a difference between rotational torque applied and added lever force applied above and beyond the rotational force.


    Sincerely,
    R
    William McCormick
    That's what I thought
    What if they are both out tho? Or never tested?
    Use quality tools ok ?

  15. #87
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Central Wa. state
    Posts
    4,976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    A detail of your caiibration method shown previously would be valuable to insansaneride

    It may send wacky MAC on another Tangent the tho

    MACs method of total tool length (amp + torque tool) 5.25 feet times 0.8 seems to be dead on. No?
    The 1% wrench is factory calibration for aircraft manufacturing, I got it as surplus from Boeing. The calibration checks are on my Snap On dealer's Digital tester.

  16. Likes ronsii liked this post
  17. #88
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western Washington
    Posts
    10,551
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    The 1% wrench is factory calibration for aircraft manufacturing, I got it as surplus from Boeing. The calibration checks are on my Snap On dealer's Digital tester.
    Ahhhh, I used to love going shopping at boeing got a lot of stuff there through the years.

  18. Likes William McCormick liked this post
  19. #89
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Central Wa. state
    Posts
    4,976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by ronsii View Post
    Ahhhh, I used to love going shopping at boeing got a lot of stuff there through the years.
    I even bought one of their Freightliners. Great truck with low miles and tip top care.

  20. Likes ronsii liked this post
  21. #90
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    The clicker type are no good when you put them head to head. One is going to go before the other causing an unknown amount of force to be applied as you are waiting for the other to go. You will see when I set them up that I have a cool way to show the difference that should be a large difference that does not need fine-tuning to make obvious. My plan is to show that the torque wrench measuring the torque the bolt is exposed to does not match what the other torque wrench is displaying as you change the orientation of the torque wrench. If the orientation does matter even harbor freights would show it, that is all I am interested in proving. But I need a constant output type of indication that you get from a beam and needle torque wrench. Because one wrench might be indicating 50 while the other is indicating 125 I am going to hold them there and film it, to show the flaw in the formula if there is one.

    What I found interesting is that the last calculator gives the same answer for torque wrench setting whether or not you put in 15 and 63 or 1.25 and 5.25 without inch or foot indicators. That has got to light up some warning signs in your mind. That second calculator just takes the ratio that 15 and 63 make and the ratio that 1.25 and 5.25 make and gives you the same answer 132. The ratio is the same. The problem to me is that what if 1.25 and 5.25 was inches in your project? And what if 15 and 63 were feet in another persons project. It would be comically wrong in both cases.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  22. #91
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Tampa FL
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    The unit of measure of length does not matter in the equation as long as they are the same unit since they cancel each other out, I am sure Dave can explain this better then myself. Not trying to be arguemenitive, just trying to grasp what you are saying/attemping. You are going to use one torque wrench as the "bolt" and the other arranged as in the OP to try to prove the equation wrong? You are attempting to do this with uncalibrated torque wrenches and prove a formula wrong that has been used for decades?
    Mike

  23. #92
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by leightrepairs View Post
    The unit of measure of length does not matter in the equation as long as they are the same unit since they cancel each other out, I am sure Dave can explain this better then myself. Not trying to be arguemenitive, just trying to grasp what you are saying/attemping. You are going to use one torque wrench as the "bolt" and the other arranged as in the OP to try to prove the equation wrong? You are attempting to do this with uncalibrated torque wrenches and prove a formula wrong that has been used for decades?
    Again until we see what the added effect of the lever to the rotational force does to total torque delivered we are just guessing. The calculators and formulas are not addressing the actuality they are addressing a theoretical math equation, which the formula in the calculator reverse engineers from forces known to be on a solid one piece lever that length. Which is no longer the case when you split the single bar into two and introduce rotational forces upon the crows foot. Rotatinal forces we know exist because the crows foot works even when it is powered by a shaft like a socket extension rather than a lever. Certainly that formula cannot work and does not work for that scenario so we know someone just looked up into the sky and said here is the answer.




    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  24. #93
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by leightrepairs View Post
    The unit of measure of length does not matter in the equation as long as they are the same unit since they cancel each other out, I am sure Dave can explain this better then myself. Not trying to be arguemenitive, just trying to grasp what you are saying/attemping. You are going to use one torque wrench as the "bolt" and the other arranged as in the OP to try to prove the equation wrong? You are attempting to do this with uncalibrated torque wrenches and prove a formula wrong that has been used for decades?

    If I am correct the difference will be very large and easily seen as I change the angle of the torque wrench compared to the crow's foot. So a few pounds this way or that way will not matter. They have been teaching children in school the wrong information for over half a century, that is not a conspiracy it is what they promised to do.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  25. #94
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,849
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Think about the formula for a minute. Once you have 132 as the torque setting of the 1.25-foot long torque wrench you could use a five-foot-long torque wrench applying 132-foot-pounds and you will get the same results, whether they are right or wrong.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  26. #95
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Sebeka and Bemidji MN
    Posts
    14,864
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    If I am correct the difference will be very large and easily seen as I change the angle of the torque wrench compared to the crow's foot. So a few pounds this way or that way will not matter. They have been teaching children in school the wrong information for over half a century, that is not a conspiracy it is what they promised to do.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    Angle does matter. If the torque wrench is not inline with the crows foot, the equation changes based on actual length.

    A crows foot at 90 degrees requires no change to settings.

    Still unsure what you are attempting to prove.

    It sounds like you may be uncomfortable with the fact that while using a socket extension, your other hand has to brace the torque wrench head.

    This may yield a small error if the overall result is not static. May even yield a small result if it is static.

    The point of applied math is to get a result that while not perfect, is usable for the intended task.
    Straying from the intent of the formula may yield errors that are not there when the formula is used as originally intended.
    This is not a failing, it's progress towards a different end.

    Just my opinion though. It's well known that pure math differs from real time results. The two work together to make a better applied formula.
    Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 11-14-2020 at 02:41 PM.
    Dave J.

    Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~

    Syncro 350
    Invertec v250-s
    Thermal Arc 161 and 300
    MM210
    Dialarc
    Tried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.

  27. Likes 12V71 liked this post
  28. #96
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Tampa FL
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    If I am correct the difference will be very large and easily seen as I change the angle of the torque wrench compared to the crow's foot. So a few pounds this way or that way will not matter. They have been teaching children in school the wrong information for over half a century, that is not a conspiracy it is what they promised to do.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    So you are questioning if the torque wrench is not a o degrees in relation to the crows foot? If so yes the value changes, you have less extension so your torque value on the wrench will need to be adjusted accordingly. The app i posted earlier does the calculations for this at 45, 90, and 135 degrees. At 90 the value is equal to what the torque wrench is reading.
    Mike

  29. Likes 12V71 liked this post
  30. #97
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Sebeka and Bemidji MN
    Posts
    14,864
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    If the question is about poking the extension through a hole, the system changes and one could not expect the formula to still apply.

    The torque wrench and the additional length must swing around a central pivot point for the common formula to hold.

    Below, in system 2, the head of the torque wrench is not free to swing in the arc needed.

    Changing the system requires more math and experimentation.

    Name:  20201114_133148.jpg
Views: 73
Size:  86.2 KB

    Edit: I should also not that system 2 is still different than a system with both ends fixed. Like a bar that has two pillow blocks on it. That is a different system with different math involved.
    System 2 needs the far end to be able to move so it can rotate around the bolt and the near end (hole in wall) needs to be large enough to be able to let the extension wobble.
    Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 11-14-2020 at 02:46 PM.
    Dave J.

    Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~

    Syncro 350
    Invertec v250-s
    Thermal Arc 161 and 300
    MM210
    Dialarc
    Tried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.

  31. Likes William McCormick liked this post
  32. #98
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Central Wa. state
    Posts
    4,976
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    If the question is about poking the extension through a hole, the system changes and one could not expect the formula to still apply.

    The torque wrench and the additional length must swing around a central pivot point for the common formula to hold.

    Below, in system 2, the head of the torque wrench is not free to swing in the arc needed.

    Changing the system requires more math and experimentation.

    Name:  20201114_133148.jpg
Views: 73
Size:  86.2 KB

    Edit: I should also not that system 2 is still different than a system with both ends fixed. Like a bar that has two pillow blocks on it. That is a different system with different math involved.
    System 2 needs the far end to be able to move so it can rotate around the bolt and the near end (hole in wall) needs to be large enough to be able to let the extension wobble.
    A case like this isn't going to work no matter how much math gets thrown at it. Once the socket extension hits the bulkhead that wrench is going to click at whatever value it is set at regardless of torque on the fastener.

  33. #99
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Sebeka and Bemidji MN
    Posts
    14,864
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    A case like this isn't going to work no matter how much math gets thrown at it. Once the socket extension hits the bulkhead that wrench is going to click at whatever value it is set at regardless of torque on the fastener.
    I'm pretty sure this is the scenario he is suggesting though. With a large enough hole for some "wobble" the system should be able to turn (with a crows foot), but not be accurate using the common formula.
    Dave J.

    Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~

    Syncro 350
    Invertec v250-s
    Thermal Arc 161 and 300
    MM210
    Dialarc
    Tried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.

  34. Likes William McCormick liked this post
  35. #100
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Tampa FL
    Posts
    1,229
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Torque Amp

    Dave going through a hole as you have drawn will not work as the the crows foot length creates an arc that the drive of the torque wrench needs to be able to move along as the bolt rotates.
    Mike

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Page generated in 1,632,486,932.09576 seconds with 13 queries