6011 or 7018???

[steel]

Learn stick first then learn mig. Just cause someone can pull the triger don't mean you can mig weld

[MyRedTombstone]

It is a combined use vehicle, as I said before I will also be using grade 8 bolts to bolt everything together so even if a weld were to crack the bolt will still be holding it there so no worrys.

I know for a damn fact I got really good penetration with the 6011 so I wouldnt worry about that at all.

I will try some more current with the 7018 and see if that works better though and get back to you guys with pics/results and I will post pics of said bolts (grade 8, 3/8" or 1/2")

[Fat Bastard]

It is a combined use vehicle, as I said before I will also be using grade 8 bolts to bolt everything together so even if a weld were to crack the bolt will still be holding it there so no worrys.

I know for a damn fact I got really good penetration with the 6011 so I wouldnt worry about that at all.

I will try some more current with the 7018 and see if that works better though and get back to you guys with pics/results and I will post pics of said bolts (grade 8, 3/8" or 1/2")

It is not the items you welded on that are of concern, it is the frame braking in half vertically adjacent to where you welded. Because of the weld you added to the truck frame.

Basic rule of thumb no welding inside the suspension mounts.

Good Luck please stay off the public roads with this truck frame.

[Hammack_Welding]

It is not the items you welded on that are of concern, it is the frame braking in half vertically adjacent to where you welded. Because of the weld you added to the truck frame.

Basic rule of thumb no welding inside the suspension mounts.

exactly the point we have been trying to make. Bolting anything at this stage is pointless. The damage was done when you welded the pieces to the frame in the manner you did. Penetration or not the design is flawed. Adding bolts or more weld isn;t gonna solve the problem.

[DSW]

High tensile steel frames are very susceptible to cracking. By improperly welding on them you run the risk of several things.

Many are heat treated steel, by welding you destroy the heat treatment in the areas around the weld significantly weakening the frame.

The steels are also very susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement and use of non low hydrogen rods like 6010/11 will cause cracking issues.

Often the base steel is significantly higher in base strength than 70,000 psi. Welds require special 80, 90, or 100+ series rods to match the base alloy. If not you dilute the alloy and weaken it.

Improper pre and post heat will cause changes in the grain structure of the steel and again cause significant issues.

Improper welds also lead to the formation of stress risers, slag inclusions and many other issues. All of which can cause failures.


I know you don't want to here these comments from me, Hammack and others, but its the truth. Can you drive the truck the way you did it and have no problems? Possibly. But thats sort of like playing Russian Roulette when some one else loaded the gun. How many bullets are in the cylinder? One, three, all six or none? Every bump or pothole you hit, every curb you nip, any accident, and you spin the cylinder and pull the trigger gambling your life and others that it doesn't go off and hurt some one. You can go days or years with no problems, but that one time could be the last for some one.

[MyRedTombstone]

Well i hate to tell you guys this but I guess your all in horrible danger, I am not the only guy that welds on his frame, just go on a forum like pirate4x4 or the like and see how many of those guys welded sliders or something similar onto there frames.

This is a toyota frame, made in the late 80's and I can almost guarantee you that it is neither heat-treated nor made of anything other than mild steel. It is fully boxed and decently thick and you think toyota would waste time or money heat treating 556,000 truck frames that they make in a year?????

Its not a medium or heavy duty truck nor was it designed to withstand the kind of loads that a heat treated frame would require.

BTW there are at least 100 different parts on this frame that are welded on from the factory (automated MIG) and they would have all cracked by now if it was true that it was heat treated!!!

There is a damn reason that everything on a HEAT TREATED class 8 truck frame is bolted or riveted and not welded!!

I will drive my truck on the street and I will not worry about it.
If it cracks, it cracks but its FULLY BOXED so even if it cracked where I welded it, it would have to crack through to the other side to break in half.

[Hammack_Welding]

You don't get it. It's not that you welded to the frame so much as HOW you welded to the frame. If you had fabricated a frame and attached it properly, and not just weld it straight up the side of the frame there wouldn't be so much discussion on this. The simple fact that there are tons of other guys who do this still doesn't make it the right way to do it. This forum is full of professional weldors who know what they are doing and are not gonna look over a project that is done incorrectly and pat the person on the back saying good job. We will call them like we see them. People come here for advice, and to learn PROPER techniques of fabricating and welding, and they aren't gonna get that information if the pros don't point out what good AND bad, and why... As i said before good luck with your project. You'll need it.

[DSW]

Mtngun, I have to agree with Hammack. I stopped looking at a couple of 4x4 sites because the shade tree welding was just too much for me.

The "I know lots of guys who do it this way and don't have any major problems" of course this is when they are posting about how to fix cracks in the welds or showing things that broke off from lack of penetration. The general consensus by many who don't know better is that it broke because they abused it, when in reality that just hastened the preexisting issues that would have caused a failure anyways.

Well i hate to tell you guys this but I guess your all in horrible danger, I am not the only guy that welds on his frame, just go on a forum like pirate4x4 or the like and see how many of those guys welded sliders or something similar onto there frames.

I wasn't going to name names, but you pretty much nailed one of the sites I don't frequent any more for just this reason. I've seen the cr@ppy weld jobs there. People there act proud of cr@p that even the newest guys here would hate to post. While I'm sure there are guys who do know what they are doing, I'd be willing to bet most have no clue at all. Just because some one else has done it in the past and gotten away with it does not make it right. Is the frame hardened? I don't know in that time frame personally. The trucks a bit older than I might have thought at 1st.

You are some what missing the point to our comments. You post this up and others see it, like on Pirate. Others think "Hey my welds look like that! I can do the same thing! That looks cool, I'll try that!" The difference between here and Pirate, is that here there are a quite a number of people who WELD and know what they ARE doing. People in the auto, aerospace and structural fields and many others where welds are critical to the lives of others. Here it's not just someone who wants to toss trucks off rocks for fun, but people who make there livelihood by knowing the proper procedures and why you don't do things the way you did. We have an obligation to be sure to post info that helps to PREVENT these sorts of things.

I'll ask you this question... Do you think you could pass a vert up grooved plate test? I'm talking about a real test, bent in a jig or xray'd. Do you know for sure that 6010/11 should have been run as the root and then capped with 7018 or is this something you just heard about from guys that do pipe? I won't even get into your knowledge or the actual frame and the weld process specified by the mfg. Originally it was probably mig welded, but what series wire, was it heat treated after welding?

If you can't answer yes to all of these, why do you think you know enough to work on this? Just because you saw someone else do the same thing on the internet?

We sound harsh for a reason, we know better. You DON"T from the looks of the welds. You'd be getting less cr@p if you had made perfect text book welds and showed a knowledge of the correct procedures. You'd still get cr@p, but at least your work would back you up. Part of this is preventative. If others look at this and see that this is NOT the way to do this, then in the long run everybody's better for it.

[Fat Bastard]

Well i hate to tell you guys this but I guess your all in horrible danger, I am not the only guy that welds on his frame, just go on a forum like pirate4x4 or the like and see how many of those guys welded sliders or something similar onto there frames.

This is a toyota frame, made in the late 80's and I can almost guarantee you that it is neither heat-treated nor made of anything other than mild steel. It is fully boxed and decently thick and you think toyota would waste time or money heat treating 556,000 truck frames that they make in a year?????

Its not a medium or heavy duty truck nor was it designed to withstand the kind of loads that a heat treated frame would require.

BTW there are at least 100 different parts on this frame that are welded on from the factory (automated MIG) and they would have all cracked by now if it was true that it was heat treated!!!

There is a damn reason that everything on a HEAT TREATED class 8 truck frame is bolted or riveted and not welded!!

I will drive my truck on the street and I will not worry about it.
If it cracks, it cracks but its FULLY BOXED so even if it cracked where I welded it, it would have to crack through to the other side to break in half.

Wow if you know so much wtf are you doing here? Why are you taking up our time trying to help you when we could have been helping some that did not know it all.

[cmartman46]

On 7018 vertical welds, I use a slight up and down V motion with a radius in the puddle with about 30 degree angle on rod, speed depending on size rods and metal=amps..
Reheating metal can stress and crack if not relieved in the correct mannor.

[cmartman46]

On 7018 vertical welds, I use a slight up and down V motion with a radius in the puddle with about 30 degree angle on rod, speed depending on size rods and metal=amps..
Reheating metal can stress and crack if not relieved in the correct mannor.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

[3MTA3]

Hi sorry I will get some pics of the welds, I got pretty good laying a nice bead horizantally with the 7018, just cant do it vertically.

I highly doubt that the bumpers or rock sliders will ever encounter more than 70,000psi of tension force, as I will be capping everything with the 7018 once I figure out how to weld vertically with it.

It's too late to bolt it on now so I will just have to run with what I've got and BTW its a HUGE improvement over the way it was stock, if I ever need to remove it I have an O/A torch and a angle grinder.

MyRedTombstone,
The advice and comments you have received are spot on. Some may have come across pretty strong, but this indeed is a serious matter. Someone who actually can weld would still run the high risk of the frame cracking. You yourself have admitted that, at best, you can weld horizontal but not vertical. I must disagree. You can strike an arc, but those are not "welds". The third pic that is a close up is scary to say the least. Now you plan to weld over those with 7018 in a welding position that you are far from capable of doing added to your obvious lack of proper joint preparation.

I just have one request for you. If you are not going to take the GOOD advice from the professionals, please at least give your location and the location of your first trip so that anyone in that area can be forewarned. I am not too concerned with a second trip because I have my doubts as to whether you will make it through the first one without some problems.

Nobody is trying to "burst your bubble" or hold you back. Just giving good sound advice and stating very valid concerns for your own good and the safety and well being of those around you. I would hate to find out that you went from a Red Tombstone to a granite tombstone as a result of not taking the advice given.

Good luck,

3M TA3

[SundownIII]

Wow,

3MTA3 (aka JRW159) says something I agree with wholeheartedly.

I better go out and check to see if the sun truly did come up in the east this AM.


OP has gotten excellent advice from some "very" knowledgeable posters. To choose to ignore it, says a lot for his intelligence (or lack thereof).

[riceburner]

I find consolation in the fact that grade 8 bolts will be used to back up the welds. I use to work in a truck bed shop in Elk Grove, Tom's Hydraulic Supply (they call it something else now) 7018 is what they primarily used to weld the beds together, but that was a long time ago.

A strategically placed 1/4 20 will do miracles.

[3MTA3]

Wow,

3MTA3 (aka JRW159) says something I agree with wholeheartedly.

I better go out and check to see if the sun truly did come up in the east this AM.


OP has gotten excellent advice from some "very" knowledgeable posters. To choose to ignore it, says a lot for his intelligence (or lack thereof).

SundownIII,
First off, thank you for the compliment. Second, let me return one. I have really gotten alot out of your recent posts. Very informative and it really sinks in without all the negativity.

Lastly, again, you are mistaken.

3M TA3
AKA not jrw159

[Hammack_Welding]

I find consolation in the fact that grade 8 bolts will be used to back up the welds. I use to work in a truck bed shop in Elk Grove, Tom's Hydraulic Supply (they call it something else now) 7018 is what they primarily used to weld the beds together, but that was a long time ago.

A strategically placed 1/4 20 will do miracles.

After what he has done to the frame there is NO WAY he can use bolts at this point to fix the damage. The parts have already been welded directly to the frame. How do you suggest that he bolt them now?

[riceburner]

Really long bolts.

[Hammack_Welding]

Really long bolts.

[MyRedTombstone]

I will be re-doing those welds and also re-enforcing the frame with aome 1/4" plate.

This frame is not heat-treated and nothing I installed will in any way affect the way the truck is going to drive, nor become a hazard.

I will re-weld with 6011 followed by 7018 and also use bolts as I said before.

That close up pic sucks because I hadnt cleaned the weld and I had ground down a portion, I will get some better pics to show you guys.

I am just trying to learn but at the same time I am not going to listen to some on here that tell me I have ruined my frame and that it is now somehow un-safe.

It would be different if I had welded on the suspension mounting points but I didnt so stop treating this like a sky scraper that is being welded together and has to be 100% to the book, X-Ray quality welds.

THIS IS NOT A NUCLEAR SUB!!!!!!!

[DSW]

You want to learn, but are still missing the point.

Why are you going to weld a root with 6011 and then cap with 7018? For simplicity lets just say this is NOT welded to the frame, and its just a project. Nothing there warrants a multi pass weld. You are not trying to burn thru a ton of old crap that would require 6011. If you can't get the penetration on steel that thick with a single pass of 7018, multiple passes isn't going to help. More beads means more possibilities to trap slag and make a poorer weld. More bead than the base metal thickness is usually worthless and frequently detrimental. The more heat you pour into a joint, the more likely you are to have issues.

Over all, your thought process is flawed. You are thinking like a hack that just takes irrelevant information from the internet and throws it together and thinks this is how I should do it. Wrong! Slapping more weld on a bad joint will not fix it. It needs to be completely cut out and redone. At some point the material becomes a loss due to poor work and needs to be just scrapped and the work started from scratch.


Explain the thought process behind your decision to weld this joint the way you describe. I doubt you can. If you do we can explain exactly why you are incorrect in your thinking.

Many have suggested ways to help you improve your welds, yet I don't see any practice pieces posted up for critique to see if you are learning and improving. Are you just going to go and learn on the same parts you already had issues with? Why are we even bothering to try and help you learn to do better if you won't take the time and even try to apply what we suggest?

I know you won't do any of this. You have already decided that we don't know what we are talking about. You will do as you wish, and most likely, it won't have issues and you will feel that vindicates your position over ours. In the end, despite that you say you want to learn to improve, all you will do is reinforce the wrong thoughts. Hopefully in the future as you actually begin to learn, you will also understand how little you actually know and how bad this actually is. Until you do, you won't actually learn anything.

[MyRedTombstone]

I am just trying to add some protection to the truck and learn a few things about ARC welding in the process, not trying to sound arrogant or anything.

I havent had a chance to practice or work on the truck at all because I have been going to school and trying to fix my damn windstar.

I will post up some pics when i grind off all the bad welds and re-weld it with the 7018.

I will also be installing the 1/4" plate between the frame and the sliders as I said earlier as well as using bolts to act as a backup.

I have used flux cored MIG as well as O/A welding for a long time now, just figured i would try Stick wile I was at it and I figured what better way to learn than building something.

[Fat Bastard]

I am just trying to add some protection to the truck and learn a few things about ARC welding in the process, not trying to sound arrogant or anything.

I havent had a chance to practice or work on the truck at all because I have been going to school and trying to fix my damn windstar.

I will post up some pics when i grind off all the bad welds and re-weld it with the 7018.

I will also be installing the 1/4" plate between the frame and the sliders as I said earlier as well as using bolts to act as a backup.

I have used flux cored MIG as well as O/A welding for a long time now, just figured i would try Stick wile I was at it and I figured what better way to learn than building something.

Then why not heed the lessons being proffered here?


Do you have anything that back up your notion of 6011 and 7018 is a proper way to weld this?

That the frame might not be heat treated or high strength steel is not of any consequence.

You have created stress risers between the suspension pickup points. These stress points are like notching the studs in your house with enough load and cycles it will fail. Just like this truck frame.

[MyRedTombstone]

I used the 6011 for root pass due to its penetration, and the fact that it burns through paint, oil, ect.

I was gonna cap it all with the 7018 for its high strength.

You all say I shouldnt have welded these onto the frame, how would you all have gone about attaching these?? Bolts??

Is the frame permantly damaged or what??

[S obsessed]

Try and think of how an i beam works with load. Now take and put a concentrated stress on the middle verticle part of the i that runs from top to bottom. It is adding a potential to crack there. Even grinding off the welds, there is still a potentially brittle spot where the weld penetrated into the factory frame portion and stressed it. This area could potentially crack and cause bad results. Welding on the frame with good technique is acceptable in the correct areas. So hopefully you can see why there is so much flack and that bolts will do nothing. Its not the fact that these could break off it is that the frame has had stress from weld in a highly loaded area.

[Hammack_Welding]

I used the 6011 for root pass due to its penetration, and the fact that it burns through paint, oil, ect.

I was gonna cap it all with the 7018 for its high strength.

You all say I shouldnt have welded these onto the frame, how would you all have gone about attaching these?? Bolts??

Is the frame permantly damaged or what??

In my opinion the way to have attached these was to fabricate the sliders to a plate or flange that bolts to the frame rail without welding to it. There is no need to run multi-pass welds on this as DSW stated. No thicker than the material is you can get all the penetration needed with a single 3/32" 7018 pass, BUT the welding to the frame was NOT the way to go in the first place. Grind it all off and re-do it but you still have weakened the frame due to the heat, and not to mention the warping that has probably taken place from all the welding. anytime you weld that much on one side of a tube it is going to draw the tube when it cools off from the stress introduced into it. Me personally, I would be finding a frame and fabricating the parts you need and then bolt them onto it.