Ornamental pro vs. Fabcad vs Autocad

[KnightOwl]

Hello fella's, been awhile. Ive been using ornamental pro since 2004 and also have the 2010 version. Its great for quick snap simple railing system but that's about it. I am now getting into structural staircase's also and need something little more advanced for shop drawings.

1.) I see Fabcad everywhere on internet and not sure if its worth the copper penny vs the traditional auto cad. Besides, it also looks like its for railing only. Whats your option on this?

2.) What is your top 5 list of programs to use for railing / structural steel work for shop drawings?

Thanks ahead of time fellas for your input, be blessed

[KnightOwl]

bump*

[scons]

Hi

What's your budget ? And how many days/week do you need to use the program ?

Do you need only a simple program: Draftsight, or any other Autocad Clone (cheaper than real Autocad, depending on the price, they can achieve similar results), or do you need real structural power (Tekla, Bocad-3D, Advance Steel, ...), or do you need mostly custom work, smaller jobs, (Solidworks, Inventor, Geomagic, ...)

Most 2D/3D programs have already been discussed on this forum, try search.

Your options to choose from are endless ...

[Brad N]

I use Solidworks and Tekla daily as part of my work and I am also very proficient with Autocad. I would not suggest Autocad for anything, it is crude, not very intuitive, and very problematic when dealing with revisions. Although Tekla does railing it is extremely expensive, and unless you are detailing entire buildings it is not great for just railing. IMHO Solidworks weldments are the way to go once you develop a workflow you can detail railings with little effort. Solidworks is very intuitive and also totally parametric, so it is very easy to create multiple configurations of the same part ie: you can draw once and configure many. Think of Solidworks as a real world modeling program and not as a cad program. I may sound like a salesman but Soildworks will change the way you think about your designs, the way you approach your project, and the way you work in general. It is worth the price. You can download the emodel view from Solidworks.com and I can send you an example railing if you would like.

brad

[KnightOwl]

Scons: Thank you for your reply. We would mostly use this for commercial aspect when needed shop drawings to provide to GC and permitting. We fabricate full steel staircase, railing for staircase. We also do some residential work like driveway gate and fence. But those are a little bit easier to draw and we use a basic program called "ornamental pro 2010"

I am not after price as I am more after the software that will produce us $$$ the quickest. If a project takes 1 month to draw for example on solid works but autocad 2 weeks, I would much rather get Autocad because in a long run we will be more financially set.

Brad.

Thank you for your reply as well. I have herd of soildworks but I also herd it takes long then auto cad. Yes 3d is nice, but its not required by contractors. I am after speed. Do you think once we save enough blocks of plates, post, channels that it can be as fast as any other program and produce a quick cut list for shop guys like autocad? Let me know, thanks.

[scons]

I can give you only the this advice: make a list of things you NEED the program to do automatically FOR you, ask for a demonstration of the program, after this demo ask them to SHOW you how to do the things you put on your list. Trust me, you'll need the list because there are many things you want to know if the program is capable of doing it. The less steps you need, the better. After the demo get a quote,and allow yourself a few days (weeks) to reflect/compare differences between programs.

About the programs, ask the demo guy(s) what is included in this quote ! Often when selling programs, the let you see stunning things, but after that it seems they are optional modules in the program. Be sure to know them before you buy. Most good software is selled in different forms like basic, pro, .... Also ask the license agreement. When you can compare prices between different software, you the quotes in your hand and the power to negotiate the price. Keep in mind that the guys who sell are very aware of the things other programs can or can't do. You can't compare Autocad with Tekla for instance. Also ask about (yearly) maintenance contracts, don't forget that. Software gets better every year (mostly).

As you talk about using it for structural steel, with some searching you can decide for yourself wich programs you need to see. For structural, in my opinion, it is important that:
- you can get all standard profiles in a library to use, and you can make you own custom library for custom objects/profiles
- you can get decent drawings and shop drawings out of it, if possible, a direct link between drafts - model. this is VERY handy ! Shop drafts need to include drafts for folding and cnc-cutting.
- you can get all lists you will need out of it (cutting lists, order lists, bolts lists, shipping lists, weight lists, ...)
- bolt lengths need to be automatically calulated, welding symbols etc included
- you can make the right cnc files of dstv of whatever you call them for plasma cutting and stuff, because even if you don't have those machines yourself, you maybe once and a while outsource those ...
- you want to know the export capabilities of the program, for drafts, the model an machine codes
- you maybe want to make things more easy, so in every good structural drafting program, there are "macro's" that will do things automatically for you. Ask if it is possible to create your own macro's as every shop has their "own way of working"
- you want to know if there is a period of time you can ask for assistance/maintenance if you have questions/problems with the program, some offer these things for 3/6/12 months when asked.
- you also want to know if there is a learning class/assistance to get to know the program, be sure to ask what these cost too, or if they are in the quoted price.

I think these are the most important things I think of right know, hope this helps you a bit.

[Brad N]

The nice thing about Solidworks is it is parametric. Which means you can make templates of frequently used parts and assemblies. The dimensions in the parts/assemblies can be easily changed, in fact you can have separate configurations for similar parts. For instance I have to detail some roof access ladders today. I have already made the ladders and have saved them as a template. One ladder is 30' and one is 24' feet with a cage. I make two configurations, change the dimensions to suite on both and suppress the cage on the longer ladder. The cage spacings etc are driven by an excel spread sheet. Once I have finished with the models I can make a 2d shop drawings and auto-magically create a view of the ladder from any position plus I can create section view, detail views, exploded views. It also has very customizable BOMs and cut lists.

With Autocad there is a lot of manual drawing; revisions are not as easily managed. It is easy to forget to update your BOM when something is revised Solidworks can automatically update the 2d shop drawings when ever the solid model changes.

Solidworks is very intuitive and easy to learn. I may take some flak over this but I find Autocad very klunky and unusable.

brad

[KnightOwl]

you guys ever herd of fabcad?

[scons]

Hi,

I never heard of it, so I just took a quick peek in their website. To me, it seems like it is meant for just railings, stairs and gates. I haven't seen real structural things. It seems that they have a real big library on supplier parts,but I haven't seen much output drafts or files... It is also not very clear if you need Autocad to run it, or it is a stand-alone program.

What's the size of project you are talking about with structural steel ? Projects of 1000, 10.000 or 50.000kgs/project ? Do you need to send your drafts to a quality control engineer or just the customer ? ...

[KnightOwl]

50% of our drawings will be send off for engineering approval. We have about 20 staircase to build the next 6 months along with bunch of railing. So we ahead and went with Tekla but also trying out Autodesk Revit for railing aspect. Reason why I'm not liking Tekla right now is because either I haven't figured out yet why its not importing our .dwg drawings and .dfx (our baluster component library) or Tekla cant really import .dwg drawings.. So I figured Tekla is only good for hard structural steel stuff.. I was wishing it can do both, railing and staircases. Can someone help me with that?

[KnightOwl]

Man for the speed and accuracy, Revit seems to be a better buy then Tekla.. I know Tekla builds fast skeleton buildings like WF and I beams but for railing, Revit seems to be where its at. Plus it works better with the .dwg files as Tekla is kind of a stand alone software.

[scons]

Hi,

I normally work with Bocad, but Tekla is "kind of the same" way of working. If you have a dwg library, it probably does not import in Tekla in a way you will be able to use it I think. You can import it in 2D and 3D but it will probably not will something you can use (to work with, BIM and BOM lists), but you can use it to re-recreate the same element in Tekla. As you mentioned, these programs are more stand-alone programs. But maybe someone who works with Tekla can be more of help with this.

As for Revit being faster then Tekla ... I think I have to disagree. Once you get the hang of the program you will end up wayyy faster. Can you make your own macro's in your version ?
Look at this, it's Bocad, not Tekla, but in 30 seconds a complete stair, take another 30 for output, you got a complete stair you can give to the workshop in about 1 minute ...

The video is not mine, but I work with the same program, it's just to show you how fast it can go ... you can do this for railings too, endless possibilities...

[KnightOwl]

One major draw back with Bocad and Tekla... = Crappy training video support. As to Revit, seems like endless videos and even Lynda training makes some. Plus fan forums all over Google.

Have any of you download the .dwg or .dfx pickit baluster files from King metals? They have a huge library of balusters files already pre-made. Thats what I was hoping to import into Tekla but Tekla lacks in ability to do so. So thats why I think Tekla and Bocad and other software cant touch autodesk structural and Revit 2014 version. (I know older revits are bad compared to Tekla, but 2014 is a ball game changer)

[Brad N]

From what I understand Revit needs an addon package to automatically do beam to beam or beam to column connections, etc.
Revit can not be compared to Tekla; it simply can not do what Tekla can do. Tekla is BIG expense and a BIG undertaking it is designed to detail entire buildings where railings and stairs are a part of the building. I would not get involved with Tekla if all you want to do is detail railings and stairs. Tekla will create stairs similar to the above video but it will also create all the associated 2d part drawings with all the dimensions and all the 2d assemble drawings with all the dimensions. Plus it will create all the parts for any kind of landing you can think of. It will also create stairs with treads (wood, suregrip, grating) or pans. For a general fab shop that sometime does some structural, some sheet metal ...lots of different things I would still recommend Solidworks. Many manufacturers produce 3d models of their products for use with Solidworks (go to 3dcontentcentral.com for examples of available models). After you solve the problem with Solidworks it is an anti-climax to actually build it.

my 2 cents
brad

[KnightOwl]

Do you fella's think Solidworks 2013-2014 is better and most important "FASTER" then Autodesk structural 2d and Revit architects pro 2014 for structural staircases and railing??

[scons]

It all depends on the size of the project(s), as mentioned before.

As for Revit ... I would like to see some real output drafts & lists. Autodesk Structural seems quite ok, but one can only give a good review after using for a while. Maybe there is someone on the forum who works with these programs.

If your stairs and railings are like this one, you can do it with solidworks I guess.


But this is more "real" structural work I think. I wouldn't even think about trying that in Solidworks.



If you mean these drawings of the balusters from King Metals.

I think they are in 2D, most high-end modelling programs work in a 3D-environment, the fastest way to re-create them would be in Solidworks I think. There are some work-arounds in the other programs.
If you don't need all the bells & whistles from Solidworks, there is also Geomagic Design (former Alibre). There are people on this forum who work(ed) with Alibre.
Either way, you probably have to make your own custom library's. This will take some time in the beginning, but once you have them it will be just a click on the mouse.

As for you opinion on video training support from Bocad, Tekla & other, these products have their own forum and training video's, they are most likely not found on the web.

In the end you have to make the decision which program suits you the most. For real desiging, forget about 2D !
As one more advice I can give you, if you can't decide, or the costs are too high, maybe it is worth to take a look at outsourcing (some of) the draftwork. It's just a thought ...

[KnightOwl]

Thanks Scon, the first picture you posted and the last picture you posted is exactly what I am after. A mez type structural, with staircase and railing on the Mezzanine. That is what we need most of the time.. However, I youtubeed for example "how to build spiral staircase in solid works" and then youtube "Revit architects pro" and I noticed its about 3-5 minutes fast in Revit and the steps are way easier. Does Revit offer shop material cut list?

[Clarkesrailings]

Hi all I am pretty much like knightowl a gate and railing specialist in the uk. I have been using ornamental pro since 2009 I guess and upgraded to the 2010. Now that my pc is on last legs and ornamental pro not in production or even being worked on I am a bit stuck what way to turn next.
i have done extensive searches and I am being drawn to fabcad for the way forward for my last 10 years of doing this career and I only need the Lite version as I only work for domestic clients not commercial. Is there any updates on views on this subject, many thanks in advance. Gary

[tapwelder]

Do you use CAD now? I don't consider op CAD. The lite version says for experienced users. No automated rail building in lite. This you might be paying for the library and a standard CAD program. I am just speculating. I have looked at them for years.

[tapwelder]

SCONS offered some good advice. List important functions you desire, then look at available software. Or contact vendors.

Knowing your level of CAD proficiency and needs and preference would be helpful.

It took me a long time to learn CAD. Primarily because for my own use i can hand sketch railing much faster. But total layout with elevations is easier in CAD and creating multiple views is easier.

For me, a library would not be important. So other programs may be available cheaper than the LITE version that do as much? The full version might be worth the bucks.

Good luck. Share your findings, please.

[Clarkesrailings]

Hi ok my level of CAD is zero and I am ok on ornamental pro (see attached pic) to show a client how it will look against their property. In reality I use it as a sales tool and as a guide pic for me to make from.
as i predominantly only deal with domestic I do not require all of the bells and whistles of cad, but the fact I can import cad files to the list of files means I can import finials etc to the package and show correctly to client what they are having.

for instance I have won good jobs against competitors purely as insurers have preferred my quotes and drawings that outline everything compared to the competitors that just do a written quote. So in reality I would just need a package that has easy drawability but with the component files to make the drawings come to life for my clients.

[tapwelder]

You definitely want to call vendors. Try demos. While OP is convenient it is clunky and difficult to use outside the templates and library. I prefer the precision and ability to manipulate elements of CAD over the templates and ease of presentation of OP.

I have OP 04 and 10. I use draftsight 2016. Ironically, i am in the same boat as you with the version of draftsight 2016. No support. So, i have to decide what next. Not thrilled about annual fees.

My only question would be will the LITE version give you the features you desire? Or is the full version the way to go?

[Clarkesrailings]

Hi tapwelder, ok they have sent me links to try a demo version for few days and when I get some free time.....Lol free time is a joke as I have had three days off since March including weekends.
anyway I digress, ok my aim is to play with it and see if I can get my head round it and start to design some stuff then if ok I was going to buy it and watch all vids on utube to see what and how etc etc. I am waiting for a new hip so I am being forced to take 3-6months off afterwards to recoup.....in that time I was going to have a good play to speed up how I do things and build my own templates of frames I use etc. The full version would be wasted on me as I would never use it to full potential in reality.

[smithdoor]

I own Autocad lt 2000.
It works great on windows 10 64 bit.

Dave

[Clarkesrailings]

Dave my Lappy is windows 7 lol, I have looked at the LT version and the only thing tells me no is the fact it doesn’t as far as I know have the finials and ornate panels I would require. Maybe these can be found elsewhere? It would certainly be cheaper than fabcad by looks