Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 32

Thread: Cold storage of acetylene

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2
    Post Thanks / Like

    Cold storage of acetylene

    Hi all,

    I have read (internet) a few different takes on storing bottled acetylene outside. Is there a cold temperature point where I should move them inside? Below zero for example?

    Thank you,
    Safetypup

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Unlike nitrogen, CO2, and a few other gasses, acetylene is not an enert gas and is affected by temperature changes. It should not make any effect on where you stored them. It would take very little time for that small amout to come to room temp. But unlike butane, acetylene will not freeze.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    380
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Quote Originally Posted by papasmirf View Post
    Unlike nitrogen, CO2, and a few other gasses, acetylene is not an enert gas and is affected by temperature changes.
    All gasses are affected by temperature

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Soda springs,Id
    Posts
    5,419
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Quote Originally Posted by papasmirf View Post
    But unlike butane, acetylene will not freeze.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Butane doesn't freeze. Once the temp gets cold enough it won't boil from the pressure drop.
    Mike
    Ol' Stonebreaker
    "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"
    Hobart G-213 portable
    Miller 175 mig
    Miller thunderbolt ac/dc stick
    Victor O/A setup
    Makita chop saw

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    380
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Quote Originally Posted by mla2ofus View Post
    Butane doesn't freeze. Once the temp gets cold enough it won't boil from the pressure drop.
    Mike
    It'll freeze alright, just not until a couple of hundred degrees below zero

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock knocker View Post
    It'll freeze alright, just not until a couple of hundred degrees below zero

    Thanks All...I think my problem is somewhere either in the regulator or torch. Acetylene would not flow during outdoor use (highway construction company) so moisture from somewhere in oxyacetylene equipment may have frozen the line.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Near Dayton, OH
    Posts
    2,499
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    yes , I think you've hit on your problem. For trivia, the Acetylene cylinder is usually filled with Acetone. The liquid Acetone serves as a medium to store Acetylene safely; somewhat like carbon dioxide dissolved in the typical can of soda. Acetone freezes/melts at about -136F. So if it's that cold outside where you are, then you'll have trouble drawing Acetylene from the cylinder. But I think you'd have bigger problems if it were that cold outside....
    Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,805
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    We have stored acetylene indoors and out for many years and never had a problem with temperature. Worst thing about outdoor storage is sometimes they magically crawl into somebodies pickup and disappear. Besides right now it is -16 Celsius outdoors here and the temperature inside my shop is -16 Celsius or colder so it wouldn't make much difference. The cold is not a concern for me but the heat is, in really hot weather you might want to protect them from the sun.---Meltedmetal

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    168
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    in the welding related world you have a better chance of freezing up before the acetylene will.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    All gasses are not affected by temperature. Put a gauge on a CO2 or Nitogen bottle and test. Gasses that at NOT affected by temperature are called " inert" gasses. Also, as a child, our Butane tank was buried in the ground because at Approximately 4 degrees it would what we call "freeze". It would no longer change state to a gas from a liquid and therefore could no longer be used as a heat source. I like said in my first post, store the acetylene where you want because when you bring the bottle inside it will start absorb heat and increase in pressure because it is not an "Inert" gas.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    3,006
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Quote Originally Posted by papasmirf View Post
    All gasses are not affected by temperature. Put a gauge on a CO2 or Nitogen bottle and test. Gasses that at NOT affected by temperature are called " inert" gasses.
    CO2 and N2 are not inert gases. Let's start with that. Argon is an inert gas. Helium is an inert gas. So are neon, krypton, xenon and radon.
    There is a concept of something called an "ideal" gas. What separates an ideal gas from a non-ideal gas deals with the interactions between molecules of the gas. For the purposes of welding, all gases are close enough to ideal to use the ideal gas laws without any correction.

    All gases (ideal, inert, whatever) have a relationship between temperature and pressure. Lower the temperature, and the pressure in a cylinder will drop.
    It will be a measurable difference in a compressed gas cylinder.

    In a propane cylinder, the change in pressure with temperature is huge, because there is a phase change involved.
    In an acetylene cylinder, the large change in pressure with temperature is because of differing solubility of acetylene in acetone at different temperatures.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Quote Originally Posted by Safetypup View Post
    Hi all,

    I have read (internet) a few different takes on storing bottled acetylene outside. Is there a cold temperature point where I should move them inside? Below zero for example?

    Thank you,
    Safetypup
    Nope, you are good to go at any temps you can yourself survive.....but as always, take precautions to store that acet bottle upright and NEVER withdraw it's gas at a higher rate than the cubic foot cylinder is rated for......with a little web searching you can determine safe withdrawal rates and then select proper torch tip and rose buds sizes to keep everything safe......In the future as a home hobbyist welder, consider propane as a VERY safe and cheap alternative to Acet gas where you will never again be concerned with storage positions or withdrawal rates plus save big bucks in gas use.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    3,006
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Quote Originally Posted by pigeonpoop View Post
    In the future as a home hobbyist welder, consider propane as a VERY safe and cheap alternative to Acet gas where you will never again be concerned with storage positions or withdrawal rates plus save big bucks in gas use.
    An acetylene cylinder can be stored on its side. It just must be held upright for a half hour or so before withdrawing gas.
    DOT frowns upon transporting it any way other than upright, because of the risk of damaging the valve in an accident.
    A propane cylinder tapped when sideways may give out liquid. It still needs to be upright, although it doesn't need any time for the liquid to settle.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    I'm finding either my education and/ or 40 years in the hvac industry as a master contractor, in error. I've read and been taught and also observed on regulator gauges and other gauges that nitrogen and co2 do not change pressures with a change in temperature. Nitrogen and CO2 are a standard in pressurizing components and systems because they do not change pressure as temperatures rise and fall and secondly for there safety of being noncombustionable. If I'm in error I apologize to each of you for my misrepresentations, but at this juncture I believe my statements to be correct. If I'm incorrect then the hvacr industry has been wrong for many many years.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    3,006
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Yep, you've got it way wrong.
    BTW, because of the relationship between pressure and temperature, here's something interesting to think about.
    When leak testing a system with nitrogen, you pressurize it and read the pressure. The act of pressurizing the system compresses the gas in the system, which raises its temperature above room temperature. When you read the pressure off the gauge the following day, it will be lower, because the gas has cooled back to room temperature, even if it did not leak.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    6,088
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Quote Originally Posted by papasmirf View Post
    I'm finding either my education and/ or 40 years in the hvac industry as a master contractor, in error. I've read and been taught and also observed on regulator gauges and other gauges that nitrogen and co2 do not change pressures with a change in temperature. Nitrogen and CO2 are a standard in pressurizing components and systems because they do not change pressure as temperatures rise and fall and secondly for there safety of being noncombustionable. If I'm in error I apologize to each of you for my misrepresentations, but at this juncture I believe my statements to be correct. If I'm incorrect then the hvacr industry has been wrong for many many years.
    Apology accepted Papasmirf, but regardless of what "Goggle Is Nitogen an inert gas?" says, you better whip out your trusty old pocket reference book and leaf through the vapor pressure charts. As said, all gases have a temperature/pressure curve. Some not so critical in the range that's compatible with human life, but a curve never the less.

    -------
    NOT Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by denrep; 01-23-2014 at 05:44 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Please do me a favor, and I mean all of this with most respect. Goggle " Is Nitogen an inert gas?" and read the information provided in Wikipedia and other publications list on your search. Nitrogen has been, is, and will be used as an inert gas. It's stablizing aspects, reluctance to "mix", and not changing pressure in relationship to temperature change does make it and CO2 inert gasses.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    I most heartily agree with you that all gasses have a T&P relationship to some degree. I now find I should have been more specific with my statements in that we seemed to be discussing in a temperature range that we humans generally work in. But, and with due respect, you are correct. By the way, thank you and the others for keeping this great conversation civil, respectfull. This is when conversations and relationships can be both informative and fun. Yes, I do agree with you. Nice to meet you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Quote Originally Posted by papasmirf View Post
    I most heartily agree with you that all gasses have a T&P relationship to some degree. I now find I should have been more specific with my statements in that we seemed to be discussing in a temperature range that we humans generally work in. But, and with due respect, you are correct. By the way, thank you and the others for keeping this great conversation civil, respectfull. This is when conversations and relationships can be both informative and fun. Yes, I do agree with you. Nice to meet you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I ain't got no respect to fumble over, and as a HVAC mech of 40 years and a guy that uses compressed gases daily, I'll assure you that for all practical purposes you can consider N2 as a totally inert gas and even use it to air up your car tires and then usually thereafter ignore the tire's pressure even if it is winter or summer.

    Scientifically speaking, N2 it NOT so totally inert that it doesn't register or react to extreme conditions, but it is inert enuff to win this argument.

    Yes, all gases have a temperature/pressure relationship, where those that react the most extremely to temp changes are or were used as refrigerants.

    If you were to graph out all gases and their reaction to pressure/temp, you would discover N2 possesses the almost flattest line of them all.....and then you might also discover that N2 is the most common gas in the whole Universe, and that it makes up a full 80% of the air we all breath.

    so argue all you want, but accept that for all practical purposes N2 is INERT in every respect that you might be concerned with unless you are a attempting to build a nuclear weapon.

    As far as welding goes, N2 is the ideal choice for the plasma guy unless he invests huge in proper air compressor filtration and dryers.

    Nuff said

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    pigeonpoop, yes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    6,088
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    Agreed, with nitrogen.
    Not so much with CO2, which follows a steep curve over typical ambient temperatures.

    EDIT - Okay, I looked it up a minute.
    Roughly a sweep of 300-1000psi from 0-100F. That's significant.
    Last edited by denrep; 01-23-2014 at 09:21 PM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    But I still contend that, along with Nitrogen, argon, and three or four others, CO2 is, by all scientific facts, an inert gas. Again, go to google as ask "Is carbon dioxide an inert gas?" And the answer will be yes. I'm not making this up. It is true. It's late and I hitting the sack. Hope all have a good night.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    6,088
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    But being inert, or practically so, is a different topic than temperature/pressure curves.

    But as corrosive as CO2 is to steel, for example, can we really consider it inert?

    I trust some one will aks Google for clarification.

    Good Night

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Sebeka and Bemidji MN
    Posts
    14,882
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    From this excerpt, it would appear that CO2 is considered inert unless used for welding - then it's "kinda inert" ?
    It refers to argon as more inert than CO2.

    "Carbon dioxide also finds use as an atmosphere for welding, although in the welding arc, it reacts to oxidize most metals. Use in the automotive industry is common despite significant evidence that welds made in carbon dioxide are more brittle than those made in more inert atmospheres, and that such weld joints deteriorate over time because of the formation of carbonic acid. It is used as a welding gas primarily because it is much less expensive than more inert gases such as argon or helium. When used for MIG welding, CO2 use is sometimes referred to as MAG welding, for Metal Active Gas, as CO2 can react at these high temperatures. It tends to produce a hotter puddle than truly inert atmospheres, improving the flow characteristics. Although, this may be due to atmospheric reactions occurring at the puddle site. This is usually the opposite of the desired effect when welding, as it tends to embrittle the site, but may not be a problem for general mild steel welding, where ultimate ductility is not a major concern"

    Edit: one more quote:
    "The term inert gas is context-dependent because nitrogen gas and several of the noble gases can be made to react under certain conditions"
    Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 01-23-2014 at 10:30 PM.
    Dave J.

    Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~

    Syncro 350
    Invertec v250-s
    Thermal Arc 161 and 300
    MM210
    Dialarc
    Tried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    329
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Cold storage of acetylene

    So true.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Page generated in 1,634,432,173.91285 seconds with 11 queries