Sa200 wiring question

[Adam Festa]

I have my gauges that I installed connected to the far left terminal on my voltage regulator. When the battery is connected the oil pressure gauge barely reads anything, and the voltage gauge reads fine. When I disconnect the battery the oil pressure gauge works and reads pressure, but the volt meter pegs out. What do I have wrong here?

I have my pressure sender in a T at the block where the filter line comes out

[duaneb55]

I'm afraid you haven't provided enough information on the particular type of electrical gauges you're using, their sending units and how you have them wired. It also doesn't look as though you have your regulator wired correctly.

[Adam Festa]

It's the same electric gauges from before. The oil sender doesn't have power, just a ground and sender wire.

The regulator was wired like that originally

[duaneb55]

Can you post up a photo of the wiring directions that came with the gauges?


Regulator wiring should be:
Blue = To battery
Green = From generator output (+) terminal
Yellow = To generator field terminal

[Adam Festa]

There's the instructions. It probably sideways, and I can't flip it on my phone.

[duaneb55]

If the red wire w/white tracer is your 12V(+) power for the gauges you need to connect it to some other 12V(+) source as you have it on the regulator "field" terminal at the moment which is not a steady state voltage. You'll also need to rewire the regulator to match how I listed the terminal assignments.

Did the gauge senders come with the gauges or did you purchase them separately?

If purchased separately, are they of the proper range values listed on the gauge installation instructions?

Got any info on or an end view photo of that OP gauge sender?



For the record, my recommendation for any future gauge installations would be to use the typical manual gauges rather than electric. So much easier.

[Adam Festa]

The gauges came with the sender. And how do I know which wire is the positive one?

[Adam Festa]

There's my gen and voltage reg. there 2 wires coming out the top. The one wire that is red was connected under the voltage reg, and the other was to the first terminal closest to the rad. The far right goes to the starter then to the battery. How should the other 2 go, and do I need a wire under the regulator?

[duaneb55]

The gauges came with the sender. And how do I know which wire is the positive one?

If you're referring to the OP sender, neither terminal connects to 12V(+) but rather one terminal goes to ground or 12V(-) and the other goes to the gauge's "S" terminal.

Where are the other ends of the black and yellow wires from the OP sender connected now?

[Adam Festa]

Black goes to ground. And yellow to the sender wire on gauge.

Which wire goes where on the regulator?

[duaneb55]

I would use 10ga. minimum for the blue and red wires and 14ga. minimum for the green.

[Adam Festa]

Ok. I was switching between the terminals and the pulley would start to spin I forget which way I had them. And also no wire need to be on the bottom of the regulator like before?

[duaneb55]

Yes, a DC generator can also be a motor if connected a certain way. Starter/generators are (were) found on small - usually single cylinder - engines. They can either be a good starter and so-so generator or good generator and so-so starter.

Wire on the bottom where? If you mean as in a ground it shouldn't need it.

[duaneb55]

Wait a minute!

If the normal grounding strap from the body to mounting tag is missing then yes, you may need to add a ground wire. The regulator would have originally had a grounding strap or tab that grounded the body to generator. This ground (original or add-on) would be needed in order for the regulator to function.

[Adam Festa]

Ok. There is still a metal strap attached to the reg and the generator. One if the wires was originally attached to that grounding tab underneath.

[duaneb55]

I'd say it probably had an unreliable connection in the past.

[Adam Festa]

Ok. I'll try that stuff tomorrow and see what happens

[Adam Festa]

I hooked it up like you said Duane, and now I have no power on that far left terminal like I did before. The only reason in keeping the regulator was bc I thought I could take power from one terminal and it would only have powder while it is running. I don't want to put another switch in, that's what I'm trying to avoid.

[duaneb55]

That far left terminal is for the generator FIELD and is actually controlling ground for same so you won't have 12VDC(+) there when it's wired and functioning correctly.

However, the middle terminal goes to the cut-out relay that disconnects the generator from the battery when the unit is not running thus preventing the battery from draining thru the generator. So, you should be able to accomplish what you want to do using the middle terminal. That is IF the regulator is good and working properly.

[Adam Festa]

Well, guess Im screwed!! Theres always power to the center terminal.

[Insaneride]

Your work looks good from here Fieasta.

Lincoln schematics are werse than Idiot-German_stuf and full of discrepencies.

Start over one wire at a time. Otherwise, deal with the nightmares.

[duaneb55]

Well, guess Im screwed!! Theres always power to the center terminal.

Then I would suspect the regulator cut-out relay contacts are stuck closed. You could Google "Delco generator", Delco regulator", "Delco generator regulator", etc. and come up with a lot of information to read up on how these work and how to troubleshoot. Should help understand things a little better.

Lincoln schematics are werse than Idiot-German_stuf and full of discrepancies.

How ya figure? The SA200 schematics are quite simple and easy to understand.

I don't say that to be smart. I've said it before and I'll say it again - if they don't make sense then take one should take each circuit at a time and walk themselves thru it until they understand it and then go on to the next one until they cover the whole machine.

Problems seem to arise when someone starts out not understanding what's going on in a circuit, attempts to make a modification or upgrade, gets things criss-crossed and then frustrated when poke-n-hope attempts don't work. One MUST first understand how something functions before they can attempt to troubleshoot or more importantly make an addition or modification and hope to be successful.

I think another issue when it comes to the welder portion of the SA200 is most owners don't understand the principles of a DC generator. Same goes for AC generators that are technically alternators but who's keeping track? For instance, how many know there is actually AC current taking place within the famous "pure DC output" SA200?

Key is to stop, look and compare schematics to machine and of course if and when necessary ask questions or do a bit of research.

[duaneb55]

BTW, yellow arrow is the cut-out relay and black is the voltage (field) relay that cycles 50-200 times/second as the battery approaches full charge when working properly. The screw on the cut-out relay is for adjusting the cut-out voltage and shouldn't be messed with or the cut-out relay may not open when the unit isn't running resulting in power at the center terminal all the time.

[Insaneride]

Duane, maybee you can explain. I have been trying to understand one wire at a time. For example of what I meant.

1. The aux power is a lifted ground (mine is twist lock). Some schematics dont show the ground, some show the ground and some show a phantom ground. Mine had a wire on it but Im replacing the whole harness.

2. the idler pcb shows 1 cr (should be cr 1 IMO) goes to aux power on both leads to both poles of aux power. The harness wiring does not show this.

3. Not a big deal but, the coils for cr1 and cr2 look like the symbol for a non polarized cap instead of a coil symbol. No big deal.

4. The idler pcb shows Q1 to be a darlington pair. I dont think the technology was available to fit a darlington in a TO-92 package but it would fit in the Q2 TO-220 package. I cant even find a darlington pair in that package.

5. The diagrams show an "alternator" but I thought alternators use a volt meter and generators use an amp meter. Im not sure about that one but when I took it to the vatozone, they said it was generator. Made sense when I realized the amp meter.

I cant remeber anymore at this time but will let you know when I find more discrepencies.

This is where I get my information.

http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...exciter-wiring

[duaneb55]

Duane, maybee you can explain. I have been trying to understand one wire at a time. For example of what I meant.

I'll try my best.

1. The aux power is a lifted ground (mine is twist lock). Some schematics dont show the ground, some show the ground and some show a phantom ground. Mine had a wire on it but Im replacing the whole harness.

OK, obviously being DC power, the auxiliary outlet doesn't really need a ground and early models used only 2-prong receptacles when 2-prong plugs were the norm. Then when 3-prong (household AC) plugs came on the scene the change was made to use the standard household receptacle that includes a ground so that the now common 3-prong (hot/neutral/ground) extension cords could be used without cutting off the plug's ground prong retaining its "legal" use with AC power. As you likely know, the common household receptacle ground is bonded to the metal mounting tangs and thus shown as a "phantom" or actual ground because that's really what it is although not required with the DC power.

Now, where some confusion can come in is in applications that include a Cables brand or Cables clone remote that utilizes the auxiliary power receptacle as part of the remote fine current control circuit rather than a separate pigtail type arrangement. In these cases, the auxiliary power receptacle ground is used for the remote rheostat return and as such the receptacle ground cannot be bonded to the mounting which in turn gets bonded to the welder chassis by the mounting hardware. Therefore, an isolated ground (commonly known as "hospital grade") receptacle is needed in order to utilize the ground for the third circuit of a remote. 3-prong twist-locks can isolated or non-isolated as well.

No doubt in many cases numerous modifications, repairs and component replacements are made to the units over the years and as such they can become wired up completely off from original and so the owner is faced with the added frustration of attempting to figure out what is in front of him that looks completely different from an official Lincoln schematic.

Which brings us to another issue and that is using an earlier design schematic to attempt to figure out/wire up a later machine. With regard to the thread link you posted, I have to confess I probably added to the confusion by doing just that in an attempt to show the complete exciter/main shunt coils circuit by using an earlier machine schematic when the owner was dealing with a later machine that differed considerably in the other areas of machine wiring. Keep in mind, regardless if early or late models, the SA200 exciter/main shunt coils control concept is the same, hence my reason for using the drawing I did for the purpose of showing the complete circuit in one draing. CEP later posted up the two individual drawings that show the exciter and main generator circuits separately for a machine equipped with the R-57 vacuum idler evidenced by the yellow lead connected to the main generator (+) brush holder.

2. the idler pcb shows 1 cr (should be cr 1 IMO) goes to aux power on both leads to both poles of aux power. The harness wiring does not show this.

Potáto, potãto. I've seen it listed both ways in many different products.

However, the two board terminals do not connect to the two poles/sides/terminals of the auxiliary power but is rather a series circuit and only current from one side passes thru the 1CR coils. In this case the black wire from the exciter (+) brush thus the reason it's shown as it is in the various Lincoln and generic drawings. On earlier machines the brown and black wires were connected "free hanging" in the harness and on later machines the connection is made using piggyback terminals at the idler board. Remember, this is a DC circuit and 1CR is nothing more than another reed switch that is activated (closed) when DC current passes thru the two paralleled coils that 1CR is surrounded by. 1CR and 2CR operate in the same manner and perform the same function by grounding (shorting) the idler board Q1 trigger voltage thus turning it off.

3. Not a big deal but, the coils for cr1 and cr2 look like the symbol for a non polarized cap instead of a coil symbol. No big deal.

I've never investigated if SAE has a symbol for a reed switch or not but no doubt the earlier Lincoln drawings would have been generated prior to any being developed and I'm sure they just stuck with the original that some Lincoln engineer came up with.

4. The idler pcb shows Q1 to be a darlington pair. I dont think the technology was available to fit a darlington in a TO-92 package but it would fit in the Q2 TO-220 package. I cant even find a darlington pair in that package.

There were several generations of the SA200 idler board beginning with the original that had a total of 6 components. Later versions that include dual IC chips have dozens. Lincoln just couldn't keep it simple. As for the Darlington pair transistor, as you know it's just a way of multiplying its current capacity in a small package and Q1 was selected to control the larger TO-220 Q2 trigger voltage.

5. The diagrams show an "alternator" but I thought alternators use a volt meter and generators use an amp meter. Im not sure about that one but when I took it to the vatozone, they said it was generator. Made sense when I realized the amp meter.

Alternator or generator it doesn't matter. Voltage meter and ammeter can be used individually or combined with either charging device depending on what needs or is desired to be monitored - system voltage, charge/discharge rate or both.

I cant remeber anymore at this time but will let you know when I find more discrepancies.

This is where I get my information.

http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...exciter-wiring

Hope some of this helps even if just a little.