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Thread: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

  1. #101
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Hay Sam, it kinda sounds like you showed 6013 lasting for 20 yrs and 7018 breaking on day one

    Just kidding around - interesting write up
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  2. #102
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    Hay Sam, it kinda sounds like you showed 6013 lasting for 20 yrs and 7018 breaking on day one

    Just kidding around - interesting write up
    LOL, DOH!

    I agree -- not sure what I learned from the post but it was definitely interesting.

    Sam, do you think if you did more pre- and post-heat to cool the weld area slower, you would have had better results? Also, do you think peening after welding might have helped? And most relevant-ly: Do you think the failure was mainly because the 7018 picked up moisture/hydrogen?
    Last edited by Kelvin; 07-30-2019 at 05:06 PM.

  3. #103
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    LOL, DOH!

    I agree -- not sure what I learned from the post but it was definitely interesting.

    Sam, do you think if you did more pre- and post-heat to cool the weld area slower, you would have had better results? Also, do you think peening after welding might have helped? And most relevant-ly: Do you think the failure was mainly because the 7018 picked up moisture/hydrogen?
    I should have been more clear Yes, I believe that the rods had picked up considerable moisture over the 1+ year they'd been in storage.

    Normally (was in a hurry on this one, and just slapped welds on) I preheat something like this because I do use rods that haven't been stored under ideal conditions. This helps to slow cooldown, and let the stress balance out, while keeping the temp close to 600 for a longer time between passes. Years ago, I did not preheat, and never had problems, but I was usually using fresh rods for whatever was "critical"

    Peening might have helped, dunno………………….Somehow I think that any post weld treatment would have been after the fact. The weld was defective the moment the bead temp dropped below 600 degrees. You can keep a weldment at a steady 600 degrees for a number of hours to help any hydrogen migrate to the surface of the metal, but it's pretty impractical.

    This (hopefully once-in-a-lifetime) experience spooked me real bad. I'm doing the preheat thing on ALL large welds nowdays. And, when I get time for it, I'll have my rod oven done.

    Another thing...…...I sometimes get slammed for welding thru mill scale. I clean the steel when welding with wire, but very seldom clean it on new metal when running stick. Lincoln, as of the publish date on my copy of The Bible, backs me up on this. They only recommend removing "excessive" mill scale for the SMAW process. Lawyers would have field day with "excessive"

  4. #104
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    It had a 3.5" cylinder on it. About 25,000 lbs force. That should not be enough to break a large weld like that. It was bad out of the gate.

    Anyways, it's a good discussion. My last day for a while to sit in front of the puter. PTO install tomorrow, then swather repair, then baler tires...…..then it's off to get some groceries for the gurlz

  5. #105
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    Guy shows up again in the morning, and it's off to work...………………..

    I grab the first bundle of small trees...……………….

    THE VERY FIRST TIME THE HYDRAULIC CYLINDER WAS ACTUATED FOLLOWING THE REPAIR THE PREVIOUS NIGHT

    Attachment 1703786 That, ladies 'n gents, is a very nice case of cold cracking. That weld was defective the moment it was made, and cooled.

    Highly restrained welding scenario................

    No preheat (although a fresh can of rods wouldn't have needed a preheat)...........

    AND THIS WAS MILD STEEL.

    The crack occurred IN THE FILLER METAL

    Penetration was fine, as ya can see at the toe of the break. That irregular line is the intrusion of the filler into the parent metal.

    I should have taken a pic of the other piece. THE BREAK WAS PROUD OF THE SURFACE, which means the crack occurred in the filler, not the base metal.

    These were old rods, maybe up to a year old, or more. Stored in the house, with year round climate control, in the original 10lb can with plastic lid attached. No longer lo-hy rods.

    So...…….store 'em in an oven...…..ya, it's a good idea.

    I had never had any kind of weld failure prior to this, with 7018, and better skills. It opened my eyes,, and made me take into consideration every EVERY aspect of the job......including proper rod storage. This might never have happened in a million years, but luckily it did.
    That ain't bad rod. First it's a crappy design, that flat bar should be in the neighborhood of 6" wide at least. That weld tore from the force and lack of fusion. I think the steel was effed up when you cleaned of the old weld, bet you scarfed it with a torch and polished it with a grinder. I fix this crap all the time with mig… Yeah, really. If the design sucks I fix that too.

  6. #106
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    I agree that it wasn't a real good design. It was the First Gen grapple.

    The metal should have buckled, not the weld. That's where we differ.

    First off...…….new steel was used for the pylon. Name:  grapple repair18.jpg
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Size:  113.2 KB The old actuating arm was salvaged, and rebuilt. How ya can mess up A-36 with a torch, and a grinder, is beyond me Been millions of tons of steel cut with a torch, and welded, over the years.

    Second......the weld was stronger than the surrounding structure, or should have been. Got 1/2" fillet running a total of 6". Gives ya 3 square inches of weld. About 210,000 lbs of force required to tear it out...…...derate that for the shear situation 210,000 x .3 = 70,000 lbs. The pad should have ripped out of the tubing, or the tubing in either the arm, or the long thingy, should have pretzeled.

    175-180amps doesn't lend itself to a lack of fusion argument. Especially when the base metal is getting progressively hotter with each pass.

    Preheat on 1" material.

    Name:  heavy duty hinges53.jpg
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Size:  120.3 KB Bein' as it was the middle of Summer, ambient temps were in at least the low 90's near sundown. Never goes below around 80 thru the nite. So...….no preheat required....so no problems with adequate fusion, given the amp range.

    I still feel that the restraint, coupled with embrittlement, was the cause of the cold cracking. I also believe that the lack of a healthy preheat contributed to the problem. I normally run these up to about 500 degrees before I weld them. Not for fusion...…...for slowing the cool down to reduce stress on the weld as the mass cools.

  7. #107
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    I have a pic from another angle. Fuzzy,, but you can see the striations in the break. Not something I'd associate with lack of fusion.

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    I wish I'd taken pics of the pylon that pulled out. It had weld filler on its face which stuck out from the actual steel. The break was convex, not concave. I would have expected a concave shape if the weld hadn't properly fused.

  8. #108
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    I mean, this really bothered me.

    It was the reason I did some tests a while back. I wanted to see what fusion, or lack thereof looked like.

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    All the welds showed good fusion. The preheat just allowed for a greater fusion zone at the root.

  9. #109
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Not to fight over it, I still doubt the rod was the issue. More like piling on more weld than really needed and having too much shrinkage. If I weld a cylinder lug it gets nearly a knife edge bevel and 3-5passes on each side depending on thickness. And why preheat mild? I don't.
    On the other hand I have installed 2" thick cylinder lugs on heavy equipment that will get preheated and welded with fresh 7018 or equivalent dual shield. But that's not average farm equipment.

  10. #110
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    See...…..that's the rub......my procedure is just about the same as you just described. A simple 4 pass built up fillet on this thing.

    Shrinkage......yeah, I think we're on the same page with that. Therefor the need for a preheat, which I didn't do because I was in a rush. Although, theoretically, this isn't a bigazz chunk of metal, and the part it was welded to should have moved before the weld cracked.

    It's had me stumped for over a year. Bothers the daylights outta me.

  11. #111
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    See...…..that's the rub......my procedure is just about the same as you just described. A simple 4 pass built up fillet on this thing.

    Shrinkage......yeah, I think we're on the same page with that. Therefor the need for a preheat, which I didn't do because I was in a rush. Although, theoretically, this isn't a bigazz chunk of metal, and the part it was welded to should have moved before the weld cracked.

    It's had me stumped for over a year. Bothers the daylights outta me.
    Just for grins, read the Lincoln bible about heavy fillet welds and the use of crush wires.

  12. #112
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    interesting, Sam. So looking at that I'd blame the extreme restraint, the re-welded base metal (the HAZ already at yield, then welded again) and damp 7018 on top of it all.

    Having said that, I reckon you'd have had the same problem if you'd used 6010/6013 too

  13. #113
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Just for grins, read the Lincoln bible about heavy fillet welds and the use of crush wires.
    As a part-timer semi-pro I've never needed them, but I view the theory as similar to the gap left in a socket weld.

    When needed, very important to use them.
    Dave J.

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  14. #114
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    "Having said that, I reckon you'd have had the same problem if you'd used 6010/6013 too "

    Probably the most intelligent thing to come outta yer mouth in this entire discussion

    7018 improperly stored, is the equivalent of using a "lesser" consumable. They didn't come up with 7018 for S&G's. Negate its properties by storing it below 350* puts ya right back in the 6010/11 Stone Age

    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… …………………………………………………………….

    Y'all either can't read, or choose to ignore what ya read

    THE FAILURE WASN'T IN THE HAZ (See what ya went and done.....now I'm shouting)

    THE FAILURE WAS IN THE WELD. NOT IN THE BASE METAL.

    I found some field pics I took when the Second Gen design hit the field (there was a partial redesign concurrent with the repair). This is the actual on-site pic of the weld failure.

    Name:  grapple repair37a.jpg
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    ONCE AGAIN...…..THE PART THAT PULLED OUT WAS NEW STEEL. The stock answer about rewelding yielded material is just that. A stock answer.

    I had forgotten this pic existed. It further extends the analysis, in a good way. I would never have seen this if I hadn't gone back and pulled the pic file again.

    LOOK CLOSER

    Name:  grapple repair37.jpg
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    This is the only pic I have of the "near" side of the weld. It's clearly not a HAZ failure. It's a common throat failure in an overloaded weld. IN FACT, THE PYLON HAD STARTED TO CRACK UNDER THE LOAD.

    Let's go a step further...…………………

    The "near" side failed because the other side WASN'T DOIN' A THING...……………...IT HAD ALREADY COLD CRACKED PRIOR TO TAKING IT OUT IN THE FIELD. Now ya got 25,000lbs force going to just one side, and it couldn't take it.

    The old 7018 couldn't take the strain of weld shrinkage as the weld cooled. There's a VERY high chance that this was due to moisture contamination. Not 100%, but it's a pretty good possibility.

    So, Dear Readers...……………..if'n you're dealing with improperly stored 7018, ya better treat it like a 60xx consumable. It's now crack sensitive, and ya gotta preheat to slow the cooldown...…..Do everything you can to help alleviate the potential problem.

    I'm not sayin' ya can't use this old stuff, Hell most of us do. All's I'm sayin' is user beware, and take precautions.

  15. #115
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    No need to shout.
    You've missed my point then, Sam. Never mind.

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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    BTW...……………. Gen's I, and II, now reside in the scrap pile of broken dreams, and dashed hopes

    Gen III was/is a wild success. Was so successful, it now resides at a new home...…...but I still get visitation rights until a throw together a copy.

    Lesson here...……...if you're dealing with a not-so-good design...…...better off abandoning it, and focusing on a better design. I caved in, and went the traditional route, but with the usual Uranus twist.

    Gen III is still under wraps.

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    Yes...……...I am indeed crazy

  17. #117
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    No need to shout.
    You've missed my point then, Sam. Never mind.
    Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Now I get it (I think) You cryptic Euro types confuse us muddled ColonialsName:  mutley.gif
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    And.....I tend to be more muddled than most

  18. #118
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheharleyman99 View Post

    Disclaimer:; if you are doing structural welds, you definitely want to bake them to get any moisture out of the flux. Other than that... Just burn em!
    When one says structural welds, what does one mean? Is a ROPS to hold a 5000 pound tractor above your head from when you flip it over a structural weld? I want to know because I am about to start welding one of these for myself.

  19. #119
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Quote Originally Posted by JGPenfield View Post
    When one says structural welds, what does one mean? Is a ROPS to hold a 5000 pound tractor above your head from when you flip it over a structural weld? I want to know because I am about to start welding one of these for myself.
    (Yeah, I'm supposed to be laboring over the PTO, but it's at the point where I need K'kins to help me set it up on the caddy)

    What is structural??????????????????? I'd venture just about anything involving risk of personal injury.

    Degree of risk varies I guess.

    These welds, not so much danger...…..but the pallet fork attachment next it......lotta risk. We make all sorts of "stuff" here at The Compound.

    Name:  lift9.JPG
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Size:  149.8 KB The pockets for the forks.

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Size:  130.3 KB VERY high risk Old rods, but only a few high risk heavier welds. And, a lot of redundancy in the welds. Heavier welds were preheated to reduce stress.

    Name:  lift15.JPG
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Size:  129.6 KB Coulda used wire to weld the pickets to the deck, but I chose 7018...…...in my opinion.....a bit stronger

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    Now ask yerself…………..do you see any "low risk" "non structural" welds in either the loader, pallet forks, or manlift?? Every doggone one of 'em involve the risk of somethin' fallin' on yer noggin. (Or me fallin' on my noggin')

    I'd never had a weld failure until the previous discussion in this thread. It was a Come To Jesus Moment. I used to use the old stuff without a thought. Now I got second thoughts. There's lotta stuff out in the yard that was made with 7018,, and none of it was oven stored after opening. It's all been thru a lot of cycles, so I assume it's good...…...but I don't intend to take any chances in the future. I've undergone a real change. Old age might have something to do with it. I'm becoming very risk averse.

  20. #120
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    Re: why bother with 7018 if yuu cannot keep in oven.

    Sam...what I see is a damn good weld with 6013 that I never even seen in my life until a week or 2 ago and the welder said he spitballed it on there and it lasted 20 years...thats some mean strong spitballs if you ask me. Then it broke...so what...nobody got hurt...and it broke again...tired iron is what we call that out in the strippins. Get over it and move on build another one and make it better. I couldnt say what happened not being there to see it or to see it happen, but I been in this busness long enough to know 20 years is pretty damn good service.


    I guess I could say Im either very very lucky, or the iron and steel Gods keep smiling at me or I am very very good. Im not one to brag so I would say its a combination of the first 2. Ive only evr had to go back once to fix one of my repairs, and I caught it on my own before it got to far, and it bugs the crap outta me sometimes evry time I look at it why I had to go back, its still together and I hope it stays that way.


    Be safe Sam and best wishes

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