The Religious Thread Is God great? Has science burried God? A respecful debate thread

[Gar]

God is GOOOOOODD!

All the time!!

Gar

[docwelder]

This line of thinking is known as "Pascal's Wager". It's a seriously flawed argument that's been pretty well refuted. It's not the simple, safe bet it appears to be. To begin with it presents you with a "false dilemma" because not only do you have to believe in God you have to believe in the right God in the right way. I'm sure if you asked him directly Gar would be more than willing to explain to you how, as a Catholic, you're headed for an eternity of damnation just like he thinks (hopes) I am.

This short 3 minute video does a good job of pointing out what's wrong with Pascal's Wager. But you can also search "Pascal's Wager refuted" and get lot's more information on it.

organized religion is poison. the religious wars,the persecution,torture and killing all in the name of the one true god. it use to make me sick. now i have to laugh at one sect discrediting the next. meanwhile those feelings didn't stop me from sending my kids to the all girls sacred heart convent here in the city. the Catholics may be dysfunctional but they know how to run a school.

[Insaneride]

I watched the movie NOAH couple weeks ago. Alot of innacuracies but I still liked the movie.
First thing I noticed was Tubalcain killed Lamech (Noahs father) not mentioned in the bible but Tubalcain was a 6th generation from Adam and Noah was 8th generation so who really knows if they werent there?
In Genesis 1:12 the Lord saw that grass ,herb, fruit and seed of its kind were good. In the movie, they use the green herb to calm the animals on the ark. Makes sense.
The Watchers from book of Enoch, not mentioned as helping Noah in the bible helped him to build the ark in the movie. Makes sense to me.

Kind of off topic but if you watch the movie, check out Tubalcains wicked battle axe. Also, they use some kind of fire starter to light the herb. Forgot what they called it but it was cool.

[HT2-4956]

I saw Noah a couple weeks back. The thing that really caught my attention was the "welding hoods" they wore in a couple of different scenes. My guess is that they used an actual commercially available welding hood and covered it with stuff to give it an organic home made look. The eye opening in most of them looked like they'd fit a standard 2 x 4 welding lens.

And since we're on the subject of Noah... one thing that's always puzzled me about that story is that if there was at one time enough water on the planet to cover all the land well, where is all that water today?

[Gar]

And since we're on the subject of Noah... one thing that's always puzzled me about that story is that if there was at one time enough water on the planet to cover all the land well, where is all that water today?

God's pet spaghetti monster drank it. -Forgive me, could not resist.

Seriously, this question was one i once asked. The answer i received made sense to me and can be discerned from the links below.

Gar

http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-floodwater.html

http://creation.mobi/where-did-all-the-water-go

[soutthpaw]

God's pet spaghetti monster drank it. -Forgive me, could not resist.

Seriously, this question was one i once asked. The answer i received made sense to me and can be discerned from the links below.

Gar

http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-floodwater.html

http://creation.mobi/where-did-all-the-water-go

Gar, I think you might have been touched by his noodley appendage!
Sorry, could not resist.

[HT2-4956]

Hey HT',
What do you think of Joel Olsteen?
Just curious. You may not be a Believer, but you know a lot about 'em.

I may not be a Believer now but I once was. The reason I have more than a passing interest in this subject is because of the harm I've seen religion do to some of the people I've known personally thru out my life. I have an Uncle (deceased now) who from my earliest memory sounded a lot like Gar. All this man did was constantly go a round and tell others how they were going to hell if they didn't listen to (and agree with) his interpretation of the Bible. He was a mean, crazy miserable, s.o.b. who for a long time every one else made excuses for because he was a so called "pious man of god". He eventually ended up having to be forcibly medicated and institutionalized because he began to physically abuse my Aunt.

A close childhood friend of mine who's Dad was the Fred Phelps (of Westboro Baptist Church fame) of our local community ended up doing exactly what Jerry Sandusky did. When the community and the authorities could no longer ignore what was going on and he realized he was going to be arrested and charged he smothered both his young children before shooting his wife and then himself.

A guy I worked and became friends with while living in Dallas had his parents fleeced of their life savings by Robert Tilton. And considering the large number of people that Tilton did this to the fact that he still walks around free today is a serious travesty of justice.

As to Joel Osteen well, it's my opinion he's just another in a long line of low life scumbags who uses religion as a cover to prey on the short comings of his fellow man for own personal enrichment. He's a sleazy used car salesman of the human spirit.

Some good information on televangelists here.

http://www.apostasywatch.com/Wolves/...9/Default.aspx

And here.

http://trinityfi.org/

[HT2-4956]

God's pet spaghetti monster drank it. -Forgive me, could not resist.

Seriously, this question was one i once asked. The answer i received made sense to me and can be discerned from the links below.

Gar

http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-floodwater.html

http://creation.mobi/where-did-all-the-water-go

Any one who thinks that the information given at those 2 links gives a viable explanation as to where all that water went is in serious denial of how the natural forces that have shaped our planet actually work. This is just more dishonest creationist gibberish that has no other purpose than to willfully distort and misrepresent scientific fact.

[pig farmer]

I may not be a Believer now but I once was. The reason I have more than a passing interest in this subject is because of the harm I've seen religion do to some of the people I've known personally thru out my life. I have an Uncle (deceased now) who from my earliest memory sounded a lot like Gar. All this man did was constantly go a round and tell others how they were going to hell if they didn't listen to (and agree with) his interpretation of the Bible. He was a mean, crazy miserable, s.o.b. who for a long time every one else made excuses for because he was a so called "pious man of god". He eventually ended up having to be forcibly medicated and institutionalized because he began to physically abuse my Aunt.

A close childhood friend of mine who's Dad was the Fred Phelps (of Westboro Baptist Church fame) of our local community ended up doing exactly what Jerry Sandusky did. When the community and the authorities could no longer ignore what was going on and he realized he was going to be arrested and charged he smothered both his young children before shooting his wife and then himself.

A guy I worked and became friends with while living in Dallas had his parents fleeced of their life savings by Robert Tilton. And considering the large number of people that Tilton did this to the fact that he still walks around free today is a serious travesty of justice.

As to Joel Osteen well, it's my opinion he's just another in a long line of low life scumbags who uses religion as a cover to prey on the short comings of his fellow man for own personal enrichment. He's a sleazy used car salesman of the human spirit.

Some good information on televangelists here.

http://www.apostasywatch.com/Wolves/...9/Default.aspx

And here.

http://trinityfi.org/

I know what you mean... but it is hard to discount God because of humans action. I am not preaching, because I also have heart burn with a church and some of its members. I had an issue with one of my daughters and the church turned their back on my family. I had been very active and going to that church since 9 months before birth (minus a 4 year tour with Uncle Sam). But I still believe in the goodness of God. In the Bible the Jewish people had to have a king. They would not shut up about it until they had one. The people picked out Saul. Bad choice! Lots of mistakes, he served God until he broke his covenant with God. Built temples to other gods for his "wives of foriegn lands". God turned his back on him. God picked out David, a man from God's own heart. Even David made mistakes. Killed an innocent man to cover his tracks when he got Bashiba pregnant. She was another mans wife! He paid dearly for his sin. What about Moses he was stuborn and didn't always follow instruction. Wasn't allowed in the promised land because of it. Then you have Paul. He killed Christians, hunted them down to kill them. God changed his heart and he was a champion for Christians. The list is endless. It is not a God problem it is a human condition.
The Bible also teaches about false profits that fall away. Then the parable about the rocky soil, the path and the good soil.
Please don't think I'm preaching I have been away from the church for about 2.5 years now. I still pray, read some, and still believe in almighty God. I believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
With that said....

[Gar]

Any one who thinks that the information given at those 2 links gives a viable explanation as to where all that water went is in serious denial of how the natural forces that have shaped our planet actually work. This is just more dishonest creationist gibberish that has no other purpose than to willfully distort and misrepresent scientific fact.

OK, then where do you think all the water went? And while you're at it, please describe exactly what you mean by "natural forces." And remember the scientific parameters you must remain inside of (seeing how you made the statement).
Any "scientific fact" must meet the definition of a "scientific fact."

A friendly reminder for your scientific fact checker:

Scientific fact:
noun
Any observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and accepted as true; any scientific observation that has NOT been refuted.

Examples:
The structure of a cell membrane is considered a scientific fact.

Scientific method:
"An orderly technique of investigation that is supposed to account for scientific progress. The method consists of the following steps: (1) Careful observations of nature. (2) Deduction of natural laws. (3) Formation of hypotheses — generalizations of those laws to previously unobserved phenomena. (4) Experimental or observational testing of the validity of the predictions thus made."

Please make sure you stay within these restraints in your answer, i surely would not want you to make any generalized presumptions that would cause you to venture into the realm of "faith."


Gar

[lstilts]

Two questions regarding christianity that I have always asked, but have never had answered to my satisfaction: (1) Why did god decide to sacrifice his son? (2) If god is all powerful, then why did he not just forgive sin?

[HT2-4956]

Two questions regarding christianity that I have always asked, but have never had answered to my satisfaction: (1) Why did god decide to sacrifice his son? (2) If god is all powerful, then why did he not just forgive sin?

Along those lines.... for an ideology that claims to be all about "love for man kind" and concern for his welfare have you ever wondered why they chose as their main icon / symbol a graphic representation of a man that had been tortured to death? That's been kind of a red flag warning for me.

I have come to the conclusion that trying to make any rational sense out of the contradictory nonsense in that book is a complete waste of one's valuable time. To claim that what's in that book has been in any way inspired or guided by a supreme being is in my opinion a complete and utterly depraved insult to the very concept of there being a "God".

[HT2-4956]

OK, then where do you think all the water went?

This along with the way the poll question was phrased at the beginning of this thread is leading me to think that "bible colleges" must be teaching a course called "The Art of the Loaded Question" (or maybe it's just covered under the broader subject of Obfuscation 101).

[soutthpaw]

Along those lines.... for an ideology that claims to be all about "love for man kind" and concern for his welfare have you ever wondered why they chose as their main icon / symbol a graphic representation of a man that had been tortured to death? That's been kind of a red flag warning for me.

I have come to the conclusion that trying to make any rational sense out of the contradictory nonsense in that book is a complete waste of one's valuable time. To claim that what's in that book has been in any way inspired or guided by a supreme being is in my opinion a complete and utterly depraved insult to the very concept of there being a "God".

In the beginning, Man Created God.

[HT2-4956]

In the beginning, Man Created God.

Reminds me of the AC/DC song title "Who Made Who".

[HT2-4956]

Since having seen Gar express great admiration for Ray Comfort I decided to try and learn a little more about who was and what he really teaches. What I've learned has been quite eye opening.

In his Cults, Sects and Questions published around 1979, Comfort praises the beating of children to promote discipline, stating that an unbeaten child is no better than a "bastard", and that withholding the rod "is to put your child in the hand of Satan and co-operate with him in sending your child to hell!". In the same book, he describes how he regularly "canes" his children, and how his own mother would "turn grey" if she knew how he treated her grandchildren.

Source http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ray_Comfort

In light of this it really makes me wonder just how Gar may be treating his own children.

[Meltedmetal]

I think both sides of this discussion are blowin' smoke. You cannot and should not try to define the opposite camp's position in your terms. Neither argument is going to make proof to the other. There is no "scientific proof" of anything "faith based". If there was it would be science not faith. Understand that the Bible is an interpreted document and unless you are reading the original texts and are fluent in the original languages you are reading something that has been at the very least has been translated for you. Make of that what you will. If you believe, you believe. End of story. You don't need proof. And if you find your belief falters and you want proof, if you actually do believe, you will find it.

Scientific fact. There are no scientific facts in the ultimate terms that many people think there are. Science is basically our "best guess to date". In science we know what we know until we know something else and nothing is absolutely for certain. We know that certain rules hold true in certain finite conditions. This assumes that we know ALL the conditions. If there is a condition that we have not yet become aware of then all of what we know goes out the window.

Just to keep the flood discussion afloat, if I recall correctly, there is "scientific(geological) evidence" to support wide spread flooding in that area in the past. Theories abound.---Meltedmetal

[pig farmer]

Since having seen Gar express great admiration for Ray Comfort I decided to try and learn a little more about who was and what he really teaches. What I've learned has been quite eye opening.



Source http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ray_Comfort

In light of this it really makes me wonder just how Gar may be treating his own children.

Uncalled for!! No right to point a finger at anyone.
Bible doesn't say BEAT your kids. But it does say spare the rod and spoil the child!
Look at our society "Dr. Spock" kids?

[soutthpaw]

Uncalled for!! No right to point a finger at anyone.
Bible doesn't say BEAT your kids. But it does say spare the rod and spoil the child!
Look at our society "Dr. Spock" kids?

What is a Dr Spock kid? The Vulcan thought process is a good comparison to how folks with Autism like myself think though. Probably why the Autistic population had a very low percentage of Theists. Also many more have abandoned religious beliefs than adopted them.

[pig farmer]

Wrestle with a pig and you both get crap on ya. Only thing is the pig enjoys it.
HaHaHa this thread is turning into a pig wrestling match.

[HT2-4956]

Wrestle with a pig and you both get crap on ya. Only thing is the pig enjoys it.
HaHaHa this thread is turning into a pig wrestling match.

Hell pig, I'm a former Navy Hull Tech. So getting covered in crap won't be any kind of new experience for me.

[lstilts]

We're all in this together, My questions are sincere, I have asked many questions about religion over my lifetime. When the contradictions & the illogical answers are rejected, the name calling usually starts. Those who want to shut down a thread because their beliefs are questioned, are simply demonstrating their inability to give anything resembling a sensible, logical answer. That is the norm, most religious people seem to suspend logic when it comes to religion, logic that they would not dare to suspend in any other investigation. I have always observed that people are not so much god fearing, but more afraid of the rejection & retaliation of their fellow practitioners. When the phrase "you just have to have faith" comes out, that usually means that they know the answers don't make sense, but are afraid to question them, at least openly.

[soutthpaw]

We're all in this together, My questions are sincere, I have asked many questions about religion over my lifetime. When the contradictions & the illogical answers are rejected, the name calling usually starts. Those who want to shut down a thread because their beliefs are questioned, are simply demonstrating their inability to give anything resembling a sensible, logical answer. That is the norm, most religious people seem to suspend logic when it comes to religion, logic that they would not dare to suspend in any other investigation. I have always observed that people are not so much god fearing, but more afraid of the rejection & retaliation of their fellow practitioners. When the phrase "you just have to have faith" comes out, that usually means that they know the answers don't make sense, but are afraid to question them, at least openly.

What's the difference between philosophy and religion?
PHILOSOPHY: questions that may never be answered.
RELIGION: Answers that may never be questioned.

I find religion fascinating, but as I mentioned a few posts up, I just cannot wrap my mind around why people believe it. I have settled on the belief that in a Neurotypical (non autistic) brain, many people NEED it.

[lstilts]

Many people are born into it, the decision was made for them, that's why people like to get the kids in church as early as possible, before they have developed the ability to think for themselves. I think most of them are in denial of this fact though, I was lucky to have grown up in an environment that we were not forced to practice religion, but were not kept from practicing it either. In other words we were allowed to think for ourselves & make our own choice.

[dubl_t]

I may not be a Believer now but I once was....

Thanks for sharing your story. I could tell by your writing that you have alot of knowledge on both sides of the fence.

I'm not so knowledgeable, but I've come to realize that a person can learn something from everybody, whether in agreement or not.

I understand your opinion on organized religion, but what's your view of the afterlife?

And don't take this confrontational, I'm just curious.