The Religious Thread Is God great? Has science burried God? A respecful debate thread

[pig farmer]

Hell pig, I'm a former Navy Hull Tech. So getting covered in crap won't be any kind of new experience for me.

Might stay away from a weed eater in a dog pen. Crap slinging machine... might get ugly . Have a good one.

[Insaneride]

The Mormons and Jehovas visit me often. Ive told the Mormons they were run out of town a hundred or so years ago. They laugh and keep coming back. The Jehovas put down other religions and are always very contrary. They dont laugh when I tell them Im going Christmas shopping. They always try to tell me my religion is wrong and they are not a cult. Last Saturday, they brought me some reading that was contrary again.

I dont subscribe to Mormon beliefs but they dont knock other religions and I like that. I let them come in and shoot pool and talk religion. My beleifs are important to me so I wont bore anybody here but check out this song.

[HT2-4956]

Thanks for sharing your story. I could tell by your writing that you have alot of knowledge on both sides of the fence.

I'm not so knowledgeable, but I've come to realize that a person can learn something from everybody, whether in agreement or not.

I understand your opinion on organized religion, but what's your view of the afterlife?

And don't take this confrontational, I'm just curious.

dubl_t,

I went ahead and PM'd you my PayPal account #. As soon as you make a "vow of faith" I'll be happy to share my views on what awaits us in the "afterlife" with you. In fact if your "vow of faith" is strong enough I'll even include my 10 tips for making sure you get assigned to the place that has all the good liquor, drugs and Asian hookers. Trust me, you're gonna want this up grade because "eternity" is one hell of a long time and the risk of going insane from sheer boredom will be great.

[Insaneride]

If you dont think God exists. Who made these old boys ?

[dubl_t]

If you dont think God exists. Who made these old boys ?

Very cool Insane'.

You know why God made cowboys?
So firemen could have hero's!

[dubl_t]

dubl_t,

I went ahead and PM'd you my PayPal account #. As soon as you make a "vow of faith" I'll be happy to share my views on what awaits us in the "afterlife" with you. In fact if your "vow of faith" is strong enough I'll even include my 10 tips for making sure you get assigned to the place that has all the good liquor, drugs and Asian hookers. Trust me, you're gonna want this up grade because "eternity" is one hell of a long time and the risk of going insane from sheer boredom will be great.

Touché HT', well played.

As soon as I typed that question and hit send, I thought "that's a given......and probably the dumbest or most obvious question I've asked...."



But hey, I didn't get your PayPal yet.

[Insaneride]

Gar the water went into the ether drift

HT; I thinks it is easier to believe in Aliens, Anaki and angels than nothing altho the Ether drift was disproved. I wasnt there when it happened but I think God made the Aliens. He is definately to busy to deal with Insaneride or HT2-4956 IMHO thou

dubl_T glad you like Waylon and Willie..

Ether drift

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0608/0608238.pdf

[Insaneride]

OK : hows this

[Insaneride]

Or this:

[Gar]

Two questions regarding Christianity that I have always asked, but have never had answered to my satisfaction: (1) Why did God decide to sacrifice his son? (2) If God is all powerful, then why did he not just forgive sin?

All powerful means God can do anything that LOGICALLY can be done; for instance, there are lots of riddles asking about things that God can not do, because they can not be done.

For example:
Can God make a rock so heavy that he can't pick it up?
No.
Can God make a 4 sided triangle?
No.
Can God exist and not exist at the same time?
No.

These are all false questions because the question itself supposes an illogical premise.

There are in fact things that God can not do. Can can not lie (Hebrews 6:18). God can not sin (1 John 3:9). God can not "just forgive" sin, that would make God unjust, for His justice demands a payment. Also worth mentioning is the fact that God can not make anyone love Him; forced love is no love at all, but rather spiritual rape.

Romans 6:23 tells us that the payment for sin is death. This is God's law. Since God made the penalty for the law, only God Himself can satisfy that penalty in our place.

First, understand that death is defined as separation (the body separated from the spirit is 'dead' and faith separated from works is also dead. Read James 2:26).

Second, understand that the reason sin brings this separation is that God can not tolerate sin forever, so we are separated from Him when we have sinned, both now, and in eternity in a very real place the Bible calls Hell. This is why people fall away from God in their life here on earth. They sin, and when they do, rather than confess their sin and forsake it, they continue to walk in it. When this becomes the pattern for their life, God is no longer in their thoughts, nor does He hear their prayers (read John 9:31). They soon become fools and claim that God does not exist (read Psalm 14:1), even though they continue to eat the food He made, and enjoy the world He created.

Third, there must be some payment for sin- either our own death, or the death of a perfect sacrifice (read Hebrews 9:22 on the shedding of blood bringing forgiveness).

It is a logical impossibility for God to contradict himself, since going against God is the root nature of all sin. For God to go against himself would be the equivalent of God sinning, which God cannot do (James 1:13). Therefore, if God cannot excuse the penalty of his own law, which requires death for sin, then death must occur for sin to be forgiven and those guilty of it to be made clean so they can enter into His presence.

Forth, in the same way that God said the penalty for sin was death, He also said that if any man would turn away from His sin and place his trust in the sacrifice for sin (Christ crucified), that He (God) would then forgive that man's sin. Good thing for us that God chose to be the sacrifice himself, so that when Christ was nailed to the cross, he bore the sins of the world in his body (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore God can justly forgive us by becoming the sacrifice himself to pay for the sins we committed against Him. This demonstrates how great His love for us!

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

The bible teaches us that Christ was the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). Christ himself said that he and his father (God) are one (John 10:30). And Christ said, "no one takes my life from me. I give my life of my own free will. I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again. This commandment have I received of my Father (John 10:18)."

I pray this answers your question to your satisfaction.

Sincerely,
Gar

[lstilts]

The scripture does not answer the questions unless the accepted definitions are changed to conform with it. So are you saying that god must conform to the laws of logic?, if so than "all powerful" is a bad choice of words to describe god. If god were truly all powerful, then he would not be bound by any laws. If god sacrificed his son, & he & his son were one, then his son was not killed, he simply changed form, which means there was no sacrifice.

[Insaneride]

Gar, God could make a four sided triangle if he wanted in my opinion. After all, he is God.

Stephen Hawking talks about "spin" in his brief history of Time. I dont claim to understand but it has something to do with one revolution is more than 360*. Its like 540* or so. I dont understand it but I aknowledge it. Kind of like Saints, I dont subscribe to them but aknowledge them.

When Jesus died on the cross (Mathew) sins were paid in full in my opinion. Also, the Jews wanted Jesus taken down because the Sabath started on friday sundown and it happened to be Passover. Casca Longinus the centurion ordered by Pilot to spear him in the lungs so that it could be over was drenched in fluid and blood from Jesus. Jesus blood spilled into Casca,s blind eye and renewed his sight in that eye. This is not spelled out in the bible but is a known historical fact in my beleifs. Hope it doesnt contradict with anyone elses.

[Gar]

Gar, God could make a four sided triangle if he wanted in my opinion. After all, he is God.

With no disrespect brother, you are confusing human logic with the power of God. If a two dimensional object had four sides, we would not call it a triangle. That would be illogical. That is what I am saying. The problem lies with the question, and not in anyway with sovereignty of God or His power.

Gar

[mikecwik]

All mental gymnastics aside Gar.....

What does the existence of God mean to you?

[Gar]

The scripture does not answer the questions unless the accepted definitions are changed to conform with it.

Actually, the scripture does answer the question, but you are not able to spiritually discern it (no disrespect). God says that His word is spiritually discerned, and those who are not born of God will not receive it as wisdom, but rather it will appear to be foolish to them. If you truly want to know and have fellowship with God, read His word, repent, cry out to Him to save you, and ask Him to give you wisdom and humility.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:21

So are you saying that god must conform to the laws of logic?, if so than "all powerful" is a bad choice of words to describe god. If god were truly all powerful, then he would not be bound by any laws.

No, (again, with no disrespect) I am saying that your "question" does not conform to logic (in other words, it draws a false conclusion). There are no "laws" of logic. Logic is a thought process, not a set of rules or laws. Your question is a logical fallacy known as a Straw Man Argument--Producing an argument about a weaker representation of the truth and then attacking it.

As far as the known "physical laws" are concerned, God is not bound by them. When addressing His power, we must remember that God is bound by His holiness. Some people mistakenly think that "All Powerful" means being able to do whatever one wants to do. From a human perspective, they would be correct. But when we are speaking of God, He always does what He wills to do, and His will is always in accordance with His holiness. He is not like us, where one day we desire to do evil, and another day we desire to do good. God's holiness demands that He always act in accordance with His righteousness. This is why God cannot sin, lie, or "just forgive," or make someone love Him. If He did, He would not be holy and neither would He be "All Powerful."

"The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works." Psalms 145:17

So God would never desire (or will) to do something that is unholy, or unrighteous, or evil. This is why we can trust Him. Can you imagine an "all powerful" god that was evil? Satan is described in scripture as the god of this world (Read: 2 Corinthians 4:4).

One need only look at the condition of this world to conclude that Satan (though not all powerful) is not doing anything good. We sometimes like to blame God for allowing Satan to have his way here on earth, but God is not to blame for that, we are. Man was to rule the world and have dominion over it from the very beginning (Read Genesis 1:26-28). But man forfeited rule over the world when he sinned in the Garden, thus forfeiting his rule to Satan. But Christ, having come in the flesh, defeated Satan on the cross (Genesis 3:15). We now wait for the return of Christ to rule on the earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Some will say, "why does God not do something now concerning evil." But remember, justice delayed is not justice denied. God will deal with evil. Read the book of Revelation to see how God intends to deal with evil.

If god sacrificed his son, & he & his son were one, then his son was not killed, he simply changed form, which means there was no sacrifice.

The way you worded your statement and the conclusions you draw from it introduces many problems. What you are saying is actually nothing new, its a very old heresy, which is a fanciful word used to describe a statement of doctrine that does not conform to biblical revelation.

Men slip into heresies when they try to explain the nature of Christ and other aspects of divine revelation from their own understanding, and not from the whole of scripture (meaning they take a verse out of context and make a doctrinal statement from it). The Bible must be read and studied from a spirit of truth seeking, and not from a spirit of fault finding. If you make a statement, and your statement contradicts the word of God, then there is a problem with your statement and not the word of God.

Monarchians, Patripassinists, and Modalists believed that God the Father and Christ are "one person." These heresies maintain that God the Father became Jesus Christ.

There are those who deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, believing that although Jesus was the Son of God that He was not equal to God the Father and is not eternal. This is the heresy of the Arianists, a heresy spread by Arius, a priest of Alexandria, Egypt who began to teach this doctrine in 318 AD.

It is the heresy that the First Nicene Council addressed in 325 AD. Arianism professed the belief that there are not three distinct persons in the Godhead, co-eternal and equal in all things. They believed that God the Father created God the Son, that God the Father existed before God the Son and made God the Son as he made the earth and all other parts of Creation.

Arianists assigned the role of creator solely to God the Father. This anti-Trinitarian doctrine strikes at the foundations of Christianity by diminishing the Incarnation. If Jesus was created and not divine then God did not become man, nor did He have the power to redeem the world. Others who deny the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead believe in God the Creator (Father), God the Redeemer (Jesus), and God the Sanctifier (Holy Spirit), as if there were three gods. This is the heresy of Polytheism.

The doctrine of the Monophysites was very close to the heresy of Docetism and the Gnostic-Docets. These heresies basically taught that Jesus was somehow not subject to all the things that make one a human. They taught that Christ merely assumed the appearance of a human body, denying the reality of the humanity of Christ.

Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35 to 107), the Christian Bishop of Antioch (Syria), refuted this heresy when he wrote: "For I know and believe that He was in the flesh after the Resurrection: and when He came to Peter and his company, He said, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them" (Luke 24:39-43). Therefore also they despised death, nay, were found superior to it; and after His Resurrection He ate and drank with them, as one in the flesh, though spiritually He was united with the Father.

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." 1 John 4:2-3

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." 2 John 1:7

If your questions were not answered to your satisfaction, then might I suggest you read the Bible from cover to cover, even if you already have, only this time read it with a desire to know God personally. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you as you read and study it.

And keep in mind, what I have written here is my understanding of scripture and it is not my intent to be the sole authority when it comes to understanding scripture. I have misunderstood scripture myself, and have been humbled when other brothers in Christ have brought it to my attention that I misunderstood what I had read. Always take what another person says regarding God's Holy Word and compare it with what His word actually says. Also understand that no "translation" is perfect, and sometimes the original Greek or Hebrew meaning of a word must be understood for the scripture to be fully comprehended as it would have been understood at the time it was written, and by the people it was written to, this type of inductive bible study is known as Biblical hermeneutics.

Until He returns, seek a good manner of life and, most of all, love God and your neighbor. If you do this, you will have a good understanding of God's word.

Sincerely,
Gar

"For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe. This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin. So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most." Hebrews 4:12-16

[Gar]

All mental gymnastics aside Gar.....

What does the existence of God mean to you?

Unconditional, unmerited, Agape love.

Gar

[HT2-4956]

Unconditional, unmerited, Agape love.

Gar

In other words.....A "get out of jail free" card along with a handy rationalization for shirking the responsibility of thinking for one's self.

[Gar]

In other words.....A "get out of jail free" card along with a handy rationalization for shirking the responsibility of thinking for one's self.

One can attempt to explain to a man born blind the beauty of a sunset, but mere words will never fully reveal what the eyes have seen.

Gar

[lighttekku]

Warning, contains swearing. Just trying to bring some comedy.

[YT]liLU2tEz7KY[/YT]

[tanglediver]

Two questions regarding christianity that I have always asked, but have never had answered to my satisfaction: (1) Why did god decide to sacrifice his son? (2) If god is all powerful, then why did he not just forgive sin?

(2) All powerful, yes. That does not mean He lowers His standard, which is perfection. There are none (among men) good, no not one.
To be good enough to enter Heaven, one must be perfect. There are none perfect in His sight. Yet His son Jesus is perfect, and well pleasing to the Father.

(1) God still loves us, though we are far from perfect. To save us from eternal death, He sent Jesus in our place. Jesus is completely human, and died in our place, and becomes death for us. Yet God would not suffer Jesus to see corruption, and raised Jesus from the dead after 3 days. This is the basis of our faith. If Jesus is not risen from the dead, we are of all men, most pitiful. But if He is raised from the dead, we will be raised with Him.

[Meltedmetal]

Two questions regarding christianity that I have always asked, but have never had answered to my satisfaction: (1) Why did god decide to sacrifice his son? (2) If god is all powerful, then why did he not just forgive sin?

(1) To demonstrate the ultimate level of sacrifice for/to a thick headed humanity. As a parent you understand that you would step in front of a speeding bus to save your child. This was the intent.
On a side note, it is interesting that it was not his daughter. Speaks to the society of the time.
(2) Forgiveness has to be earned. If it is simply given, it is devalued. If you wrong me and I simply forgive you without a sincere apology or seeing you show remorse, I do it for me not for you. To free myself from your indiscretion, but you have learned the wrong lesson. If we could simply be forgiven for any sin we commit we wouldn't have any incentive to stop sinning. If in His all powerfulness He prevents us from sinning we have given up freewill and then He is responsible for all that we do, good and bad.
---Meltedmetal

[HT2-4956]

History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it. (Robert Heinlein)

[lstilts]

The answers given here to the questions I asked make no logical sense, just because you can give an answer does not make it true. For me it just has to make sense, & quoting scripture is not giving a logical answer, it's simply showing that you are repeating someone else's illogical answer, because you can give a simple true answer of your own.

[lighttekku]

The answers given here to the questions I asked make no logical sense, just because you can give an answer does not make it true. For me it just has to make sense, & quoting scripture is not giving a logical answer, it's simply showing that you are repeating someone else's illogical answer, because you can give a simple true answer of your own.

The logical answer is that God has bound himself by his own rules. He could break them if he wanted to but they are his rules created by himself so he won't. (Just like I will never cheat on my girlfriend even though I could with her never finding out, it's my rule that I won't so I won't violate it, even though I could if I wanted to) So he introduced a loophole into the system by giving his son a human life and sent him here to live a perfect life and be sacrificed by those he loved, to help us have a way to wash away our own sin. And all we have to do is believe that it happened, accept Jesus into our lives, and try to live a more holy life.

[Meltedmetal]

The answers given here to the questions I asked make no logical sense, just because you can give an answer does not make it true. For me it just has to make sense, & quoting scripture is not giving a logical answer, it's simply showing that you are repeating someone else's illogical answer, because you can give a simple true answer of your own.

Istilts.
Perhaps either your question or my answer fell into the generation gap and was lost. My answer is an academic analysis from what I know of the literature in question and was derived from my experience of human nature. That others quote the bible is not surprising. Can you answer questions about Dicken's "Great Expectations" without referring to the literature? I think not. My answer does not require that you believe the scriptures. Whether either of us do or not is irrelevant to your questions as I understand them.
True? What is truth? When it comes to religion the spectrum stretches from absolute faith(so it is all true) to absolute rejection(so it is all lies) and everything in between. No one alive today was there to witness it, so believe it or don't. It is a personal decision and I will not try to persuade you in either direction. I hope you can find answers that satisfy you one day. Best wishes.---Meltedmetal