Metal Core

[Pavinsteelman]

Will check out tomorrow NY State and City requires all web to flange,butt splices and stifferner welds to be sub arc full auto no exceptions. Flux core is frowned upon ,you have to submit. WPQR s at around 7000 each for review to prequalify for each electrode desired. We weld with subarc whenever possible. Your management underbid the project and could not deliver.We finished our work with the prime comtractor pulling off the transportation hub and got it done. We will not run Hobart it is junk and not melted and mfg in USA. Esab the same.

[ManoKai]

....it is junk and not melted and mfg in USA. Esab the same.

Incorrect. ESAB's electrodes are in fact manufactered in Hanover, PA. Been through the factory and know several welders and chemists at the facility. ESAB has the "right stuff" according to NASA and Boeing, http://www.esabna.com/us/en/news/arc...em-project.cfm. And FTR, 710X-M (FCAW-G) is excellent.

Please substantiate your claims against ESAB. Have no dog in this fight other than the pursuit of correct technical information.

[HT2-4956]

Will check out tomorrow NY State and City requires all web to flange,butt splices and stifferner welds to be sub arc full auto no exceptions. Flux core is frowned upon ,you have to submit. WPQR s at around 7000 each for review to prequalify for each electrode desired. We weld with subarc whenever possible. Your management underbid the project and could not deliver.We finished our work with the prime comtractor pulling off the transportation hub and got it done. We will not run Hobart it is junk and not melted and mfg in USA. Esab the same.

You know, if your mentality is in any way representative of the average employee's at Harris I think I'm beginning to understand why your management feels the need to resort to criminal activity to try and make money.

[A_DAB_will_do]

... We will not run Hobart it is junk and not melted and mfg in USA. Esab the same.

Factually incorrect. All Hobart Mild steel and Low-alloy Flux cored/metal cored wires, stick, and solid wire products are manufactured in Ohio; either in Troy or Piqua.

There are some stainless steel products and some new seamless wire products that are manufactured in Asia or Europe and imported to the USA. As others have noted in the past, some of the stick electrodes Hobart sells in TSC and other retail outlets are made in Asia.

Whether or not any of those products "suck" is a matter of personal opinion.

[shovelon]

WPQR s at around 7000 each for review to prequalify for each electrode desired. We weld with subarc whenever possible.

Wow! I am surprised at that amount. What are the factors that set that cost so high?

[A_DAB_will_do]

Wow! I am surprised at that amount. What are the factors that set that cost so high?

WPQRs usually requires a great deal of destructive testing.

Tensile tests (at least 2)
Charpy V-notch impact tests(at least 1 set, usually more)
Guided bend tests (at least 2, usually more
etc.

Usually there's NDT(X-ray or Ultrasound) performed as well, before the destructive testing starts.

$7000 is at the high end of what I've seen, $2000-$3000 for testing is more common in my experience. BUT, factor in the New York area labor costs, and perhaps some more unusual, costly tests like C.T.O.D., and I can see the price reaching $7000. If the materials are high strength, and the joint design is unconventional, then it's likely to require 2 or more tests to get the procedure right. This can easily drive the total cost to qualify a welding procedure over $5000. This is why the AWS created pre-qualified welding procedures; to ease the burden to companies that need to follow welding procedures to meet code requirements.

[HT2-4956]

I just finished reading section 7 (welding) and 8 (qualification) of the 2013 NYSSCM.

It can be found here and is not that long (or difficult) a read. https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/eng.../scm?nd=nysdot

[HT2-4956]

OK, I've had a couple of beers and have decided to go with the nuclear option....

Hey Pavin,

You're a dumb a$$, opinionated blowhard that really doesn't know what he's talking about and is most likely to stupid to realize it. You come into this thread and try and cast aspersions on the competency of my employer and the welding products made by others when it's obvious you really have no experience with either which would qualify you to give any kind of rational, informed opinion. That saying about "you can't fix stupid" was obviously coined with some one like you in mind.

All this stuff you're telling us about what is and is not acceptable workmanship and technique wise in the structural steel industry per these codes like the NYSSCM and the AWS D1.1 Bridge Code are nothing more than the ill informed, disjointed ramblings of a wannabe poseur expert idiot who has most likely never read either of those publications. Did I mention I think you're a dumb a$$?

Boy howdy, if you hold any position of authority or technical capacity at Harris it's no wonder your management feels the need to try and get a way with criminal fraud in order to stay in business. In fact I'd have to say that any company that would employee you (especially in any kind of QC capacity) is probably doomed to eventually end up in bankruptcy. Did I mention I think you're a dumb a$$?

I feel pretty confident in telling you that you wouldn't last a month in the shop I work at now. They'd probably recognize you for the bull sh!t artist you are in the first week. Again, did I mention that I think you're a dumb a$$?

[Pavinsteelman]

Ok Esab supplied Coreshield 8 to DCM for all work on the World Trade Center project and had over 80000 lb of bad wire supplied to us from them. Inconsistant quality of product was a issue. Hobart tried to supply wire for the project and sent their best people down to run WPS in front of our QC and Port Inspection and could not comply with procedures and were told to go home. The ITW companys wanted to supply us with subarc equipment and consumables and could not provide equipment that would equal what Lincoln can provide. Their sub arc line was not melted and mfg in the USA. The ESAB gantry welder we have is a orphan with parts and support made to order from Canada.The story goes on and on 12 years trying to build the World Trade Center and pick up the pieces. The primary supplier could not deliver on time and the subcontract fabricators could not do better.The main contractor
the Transportation Hub walked off the job and DCM took it over.We used over5000 tons of temp steel as the foundations were build below it. URSA from Spain could not preform using metal cored wire and could not UT and fabricate to D1.5 and the Port pulled the work out and Harris did it.It was the hardest structural steel ever done in the USA over 250 manhours a ton! Tower One was done on time and Under Budget! The Port Authority owes us over100 million in change orders. The Port paid ransomed steel in order to keep going from many suppliers. If you can build steel for New York State and City and The Port Authority of NewYork and New Jersey for 104 years you are doing good.

[shovelon]

Ok Esab supplied Coreshield 8 to DCM for all work on the World Trade Center project and had over 80000 lb of bad wire supplied to us from them. Inconsistant quality of product was a issue. Hobart tried to supply wire for the project and sent their best people down to run WPS in front of our QC and Port Inspection and could not comply with procedures and were told to go home. The ITW companys wanted to supply us with subarc equipment and consumables and could not provide equipment that would equal what Lincoln can provide. Their sub arc line was not melted and mfg in the USA. The ESAB gantry welder we have is a orphan with parts and support made to order from Canada.The story goes on and on 12 years trying to build the World Trade Center and pick up the pieces. The primary supplier could not deliver on time and the subcontract fabricators could not do better.The main contractor
the Transportation Hub walked off the job and DCM took it over.We used over5000 tons of temp steel as the foundations were build below it. URSA from Spain could not preform using metal cored wire and could not UT and fabricate to D1.5 and the Port pulled the work out and Harris did it.It was the hardest structural steel ever done in the USA over 250 manhours a ton! Tower One was done on time and Under Budget! The Port Authority owes us over100 million in change orders. The Port paid ransomed steel in order to keep going from many suppliers. If you can build steel for New York State and City and The Port Authority of NewYork and New Jersey for 104 years you are doing good.

Well that is a horse of another color. Sounds like a nightmare and more complicated than it needs to be. That is a hornet's nest I would not want to be involved in.

[Welder Dave]

Wasn't this thread about Metal-Core wire? Coreshield 8 is self shielded flux-core(Innershield) not Metal-Core and runs on straight polarity. The more I read in this thread, the more skeptical I get.

[Pavinsteelman]

Since I dont want to hijack this topic go to World Trade Center Hub on Welding Projects and pictures for your own opinion .

[HT2-4956]

Up until the past week or so I use to think of Pavinsteelman as being pretty knowledgeable in the area of structural steel fabrication and always looked fore ward to reading what he posted in hopes I could gain a little insight into things. But based solely on the things he's tried to present as statements of fact in his posts to this thread about what is and is not allowed welding wise in these codes that I've been able to double check for myself by reading them and finding what he has claimed to be highly misleading (if just not flat out wrong) he's just lost all credibility with me. My self (and some others) have pointed out several instances were the things he claims to know are verifiably wrong. The only thing I see him accomplishing with his posts to this thread is tying a Gordian Knot of mis-information that others of us (who as ManoKai so nicely put it, "care about the pursuit of correct technical information") end up feeling the need to try and un-ravel and correct. I don't know about the rest of the members who've been participating in this thread but having my time wasted in that fashion tends to piss - me - off.

[HT2-4956]

So any way back to the subject of running metal core.....

Got the stop watch out this week to help with getting a better handle on the exact IPM I've been using. Had kind of a palm to forehead moment when I got down for a closer straight on look at the wire speed dial and noticed some small print that let me know the 12 o'clock position number 8 I've been using as my main reference point actually represents meters / minute. Just to see how accurate the dial was calibrated I ran the wire for 6 seconds, measure and x by 10. Got 310" for an answer and since 8 meters is actually 314.96" I'd have to say that for all practical purposes in setting (and discussing) wire feed speeds the dial is fairly accurate.

Also checked the time it took me to make a 32" long 5/16 horizontal fillet weld on a stiffener to web (exactly like the one in the first picture of post 84). The time was 3.5 minutes. So unless I've made a basic math mistake that translates to a travel speed of 9.15 inches / minute (one inch of weld every 6.56 seconds).

This was with .052 FabCor 86R at 28 volts and 8.25 meters / minute (325"/minute) using 85/15 shielding gas.

[ManoKai]

@ HT2 - any prior experience in running ESAB COREWELD-D2? Interested in purchasing my first roll of MCAW wire in .045" that uses C25 shielding. Applications will be HSLA and mild steels. Appreciate if would recommend a Lincoln equiv or another ESAB metal-cored wire. Mahalo.

[HT2-4956]

Will check out tomorrow NY State and City requires all web to flange,butt splices and stifferner welds to be sub arc full auto no exceptions. Flux core is frowned upon ,you have to submit. WPQR s at around 7000 each for review to prequalify for each electrode desired. We weld with subarc whenever possible. Your management underbid the project and could not deliver.We finished our work with the prime comtractor pulling off the transportation hub and got it done. We will not run Hobart it is junk and not melted and mfg in USA. Esab the same.

It looks to me like this claim of there being "no exceptions" isn't correct. Granted it seems SAW is the preferred process but the words "unless modified" in the following excerpt from the NYSSCM indicate to me that other options are allowable given the proper PQR's and testing.



Also, SAW is not a prequalified process under the NYSSCM. Using it would require submitting PQRs (and having the testing done) just like any other welding process (with the exception of SMAW). So in that regard there's no advantage to SAW over other processes. That's not to say that over all, SAW wouldn't be the preferred process (and better than other processes like metal core) for a lot of situations.





Also the NYSSCM specifically says that it adopts the AWS D1.1 Bridge Welding Code for use with certain modifications. None of those modifications that I've seen in my reading of that document pertain to the use of metal cored wires. And since the AWS D1.1 permits the use of metal cored wires (with proper PQRs and testing like any of the other processes) I have to consider that Pavinsteelman's declaration that "metal cored wire is not allowed in bridge work in most states" to be with out merit or any factual basis in reality.

[ManoKai]

IRT post #115, intended to cite ESAB COREWELD 80-D2.

[Pavinsteelman]

What the New York Steel Construction Manual
shows and.what DCES wants are up to the fabricator on his WPS submittal we run them every 2 years , granted you can try and run it. They take a dim view of flux core welding and prefer CO 2 shielding. TZ constructors spent 3 million on WPS qualification and received approval for a Custom wire with mixed gas shielding from Lincoln and ended up stick welding pile splices. They will not waiver on subarc on main material and only allow SMAW on FCM repair. Have never seen any SSFCAW approved on any bridge work.Flame cut holes are not allowed and on plasma cut edges hardness testing must be done. No cold bending allowed.

[HT2-4956]

What the New York Steel Construction Manual
shows and.what DCES wants are up to the fabricator on his WPS submittal we run them every 2 years , granted you can try and run it. They take a dim view of flux core welding and prefer CO 2 shielding. TZ constructors spent 3 million on WPS qualification and received approval for a Custom wire with mixed gas shielding from Lincoln and ended up stick welding pile splices. They will not waiver on subarc on main material and only allow SMAW on FCM repair. Have never seen any SSFCAW approved on any bridge work.Flame cut holes are not allowed and on plasma cut edges hardness testing must be done. No cold bending allowed.

You know, if ever there was a text book example of that saying about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing you've got to be it.

[HT2-4956]

@ HT2 - any prior experience in running ESAB COREWELD-D2? Interested in purchasing my first roll of MCAW wire in .045" that uses C25 shielding. Applications will be HSLA and mild steels. Appreciate if would recommend a Lincoln equiv or another ESAB metal-cored wire. Mahalo.

ManoKai,

I'm afraid all of my metal core experience to date has been with FabCor 86R. Mostly in .052 diameter but some 1/16. At my previous job I did get to run some .045 out of position but it was with a pretty sophisticated programmable pulsed power source (Miller PipePro 450 RFC).

Some quick research into Coreweld 80-D2 shows it to be a step up in strength from the 86R I've been running. It looks like it's stress relievable and better for elevated temperature service. If it runs anything like 86R (which I'm guessing it does) I wouldn't be scared to try it. If you get some and try it please post about it here.

The forum member here that's been posting in this thread that would be much more qualified to speak to this than me is "A DAB will do". If you're (we're) lucky he'll weigh in with his .02.

[ManoKai]

[killdozerd11]

Impressive video

[ManoKai]

Another end-user of metal cored electrodes explaining the benefits,

[HT2-4956]

Morn'n ManoKai,

That RMD transfer that Miller has come up with is pretty impressive. I've got to use it to put open roots in with both solid and metal cored wires. It's definetly an improvement over your normal short circuit transfer.

[ManoKai]

@ HT2-4956 - Aloha. Never ran a Miller RMD setup, but would welcome the opportunity. Blue RMD or Red SST.... it's all good. Learned this week what makes MCAW appealing, besides the high deposition rate, is the fact of less current/unit energy is needed to "melt" the wire for a given diameter when compared to solid wire. Basic physics. More unit energy is required to burn a 'solid' cross-section wire than a 'hollow' metal cored wire. The thin-walled MCAW wire carries the entire current flow.

So need some metal core to jam with