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Thread: Looking to spray transfer

  1. #1
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    Looking to spray transfer

    I am still shopping for a new welder. Probably narrowed it down to miller 252 or Esab 280 pro. How feasable is spray transfer with this size machine. Most of the welding that I would be doing is 1/4-1/2". What could I expect my duty cycle to be. Have read other posts that it can be done didn't find much on weld times or length of welds. Obviously some six inch welds are different that rebuilding a bucket. What size wire would be best the machines I was looking at were set up for.035. Thanks
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  2. #2
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    i would look into getting a 300 amp or bigger machine if you want to do spray
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  3. #3
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    You won't have any problems with either machine running .035" wire. Make sure that you are using an appropriate shielding gas. Some of the small dealers only carry CO2 of C25, and you will require a triple mix gas.

  4. #4
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    You should be able to get up into a spray transfer on the esab. You will want to run a high argon mix, at least 85% balanced with CO2 running about 26-27v and around 450-500ipm with .035. I wouldn't worry about getting a tri mix, some will allow for a spray with voltages as low as 15-16v with the addition of a little o2 but i think you will be fine without it.

  5. #5
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    I have heard that 98/2 argon/o2 is the gas to use. I have achieved it with the regular C25 mix but its not the most stable. Got a really good sunburn after only about 5 minutes of this too, Learned quick to wear long sleeves when doing spray.

  6. #6
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro-Fab View Post
    and you will require a triple mix gas.
    Ive never heard of using a tri-mix for spray transfer, even for stainless. Common mixes are C5, C10, C15 and 98/2.

    If you're going to be doing strictly spray then I would use a 98/2, but if you want the ability to do both spray and short circuit with the same gas then either C10 or C20.

    C10 will yield a little more stable spray, while C20 will give you a little more heat for short circuit, but won't spray quite as well.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    I always used c15 for spray. There was a c8 I think at one supply. It was a house blend. I can't remember now all the specifics. Anyway, the two machines in question are quite capable of spray welding. You won't have pulse with the miller, but the esab may offer it...I not sure though.

    to me spray is limited unless you have the ability to manipulate everything into position. If you are limited to outof position welding then you will need pulse spray.

  8. #8
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Pretty easy to tell who knows what they're talking about and who's "blowing smoke", without having a clue about spray transfer.

    Why do posters feel compelled to post pure BS?

    To the OP:

    Either machine you mentioned will do fine with spray transfer.

    As Sn0 mentioned, a C10/C8 mix (90%/92% Argon/balance CO2). A 98% Argon/2% O2 mix will run a little hotter.

    Mixes with >18% CO2 make spray transfer difficult if not impossible to achieve. You generally end up with a globular transfer.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    You mentioned "bucket". If you will be working on heavy equipment and such, consider a suitcase feeder and welder separate. It makes it alot easier to work "anywhere". Just a thought.

    I was taught that you cannot achieve a true spray transfer with less than 90% argon. The person who taught me that was a welding instructor from Triton College in IL. He said the common mixes readily available were 90/10 and 92/08 for AR/CO2 and 98/02 for AR/O2. Maybe SundownIII can verify or disprove this.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    For those of you who are curious about a number of different questions regarding GMAW, various modes of transfer, and a number of other tidbits of information, I have included a link from ESAB. One of the questions specifically addresses the "minimum percentage" of Argon to achieve "true" spray transfer. One other thought for those of you who would like to get a little more "bang for the buck" out of your less powerful GMAW machines: use an equivalent diameter metal core wire, the metal core requires less energy to melt than a comparable diameter solid core wire and thus it can provide more energy for melting the base metal, it is likely a very miniscule difference, but if you're splitting hairs this one could apply. Best regards, Allan


    http://www.esabna.com/us/en/newslett...iz-Answers.cfm
    aevald

  11. #11
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by sn0border88 View Post
    Ive never heard of using a tri-mix for spray transfer, even for stainless. Common mixes are C5, C10, C15 and 98/2.

    If you're going to be doing strictly spray then I would use a 98/2, but if you want the ability to do both spray and short circuit with the same gas then either C10 or C20.

    C10 will yield a little more stable spray, while C20 will give you a little more heat for short circuit, but won't spray quite as well.
    Actually, on my larger machines I do use a 90/10 mix, but the 90% argon,5%CO2, 5% Oxy. allows for spray with lower current and may allow the OP to spray with the .045" wire.
    An 81% Argon,18% Helium, 1%CO2 mix is for all grades of S/S, both short circuit and spray.

  12. #12
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Thanks for the tips and suggestions. Now I just have to decide on a welder. Sundown had me a little nervous when he was talking about people blowing smoke> I dont think I know enough about spray to even try to blow smoke, but I hope to learn
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  13. #13
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    i tried a bottle of c15 to try and get away with one bottle for both spray and short circuit, i personally dont think it does either particularly well. but I suppose thats to be expected from a compromise gas mix.

    next time think ill get two bottles a c25 and a 92/8.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    well, I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in. The MigMaster 280 pro is a beast of a machine for the compact welding class. ie MM252, Powermig 256 and the like. It's really a 300amp machine 40% duty cycle. min 80% Argon gets true spray transfer but the more argon the less energy it take. Ie. 90/10 requires less energy than a 84/16. Everyone I have talked too has their own prefernce on gas mix. 90/10, 92/8, 95/5, 98/2. and even some people prefer the oxygen blends. Either will work. I like 90/10 on my spray. It's does good short arc and good spray, so I think it's pretty versitile. One things that is on the Migmaster is an inductance lug. it has a low inductance mode and high inductance mode. Is effects the weld puddle, mostly on short arc transfer, but can help get into a spray at lower currents. Anyway, just thought I would toss it into the mix.

  15. #15
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Thanks Esabrep. Any Esabdealers in MN actually have any welders to look at. All I've seen is pictures on line. My closest LWS bleeds blue and red but are listed as a dealer. Thanks
    Millermatic 252
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  16. #16
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Not suprised. Miller and Lincoln are easy to "sell". I don't really think there is much selling involved with them anymore. What is your zip and I can do some checking for you you can PM me if you would like to.

  17. #17
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Is there a pulse option for the 280?
    Last edited by Scott Young; 04-26-2011 at 11:27 PM.

  18. #18
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Both the machines will spray .035 very well with good duty cycle, farmshop

    I'm not a fan of using a single dual mix for both spray and short circuit mig. The original tri-mix "all in one wonder gas" I can remember was the 90Ar/8Co2/2O2 "Stargon" from Union Carbide/Linde.

    It wasn't as good as 50Ar/50Co2 at short arc and wasn't as good as Argon with 2O2 or 5-8Co2 at spray but could run .035 at 9 O"clock at 375-425IPM, 23-24Volts running about 180 amps if the joint was designed right. It wasn't called a true spray at those settings but was pretty quiet and could multipass very well and had no spatter or slippery mig dust under foot.

    It seems every year the neighbor asks about a tri-mix his gas guy is pushing... Maybe I should make him a sign, It took years for him to dump the tri-mix stainless gas he was getting at a 15% price bump for a 1% performance bump.

    Matt

  19. #19
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    deleted by Worntorn
    Last edited by worntorn; 04-27-2011 at 01:06 PM.

  20. #20
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    (Quote deleted)

    That seems kinda personal worntorn...

    Matt

    (edit) OK
    Last edited by Matt_Maguire; 04-27-2011 at 01:15 PM.

  21. #21
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    I'm just sayin, try to be understanding...

  22. #22
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Quote Originally Posted by worntorn View Post
    i'm just sayin, try to be understanding...
    OK, looks like no harm, no foul to me

    Matt
    Last edited by Matt_Maguire; 04-27-2011 at 01:20 PM.

  23. #23
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    Hey Farmshop,

    The MM-280 is a beast of a machine as ESABREP said. I was at their plant in Florence a couple of weeks ago and we ran spray with both .035 and .045 solid wire using a 90/10 mix. The transition into spray on .035 was around 23.5V and for .045 it was around 26Volts.

    The 280 is a 300 amp machine. 300amps @ 40% Duty Cycle, 280amps @ 50% dc, and 250amps @ 60% dc. And because its a tapped transformer design, it shortarc's like dream at both the low end and the high end. Typicallyy its tough to short arc .045 solid wire without getting some spatter but this machine did it. It probably has something to do with the wire we were using as well which was ESAB's Aristorod (ER70S-6) on 75A/25C mix.

    Best of all, ESAB has a 100% Satisfaction Guarantee that allows you to buy the machine and if you don't like it they will take it back within 100 days from the date of purchase. If you PM me, I'll give you the contact info for the ESAB rep in your area.

    Hope this helps,

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  24. #24
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    Re: Looking to spray transfer

    My experience from two different welding schools is that the guns that come with MM252s will burn up in spray mode. They replace the guns with 400A Tregaskiss Toughguns - those hold up fine.

    My MM250 will do spray mode if requested, but my M25 gun won't take it for long.

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