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Thread: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

  1. #51
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    This thread has become a lot more informative than I would have guessed.

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Yeah,

    And I'm not hearing an answer!

    I know, "How dare he even ask!" Ha, ha, ha...

    I mean, I answered a four of Zizzle's questions completely and succinctly enough.

    Can you answer the question or not?

    "Do any HTP 221 users actually know what amplitude control is or how to use it?"

    Yes, I know, this thread started as a of sort crusade against Everlast and Chinese quality, which are not above criticism, and that there is an especially receptive audience for that, as host here are in the Yankee Doodle Dandy welding machine crowd, which is OK. I've made a living for a few years using a Lincoln Pipeliner, a Miller Big 40, Bobcats, Hobarts, Rangers, Millermatics, etc.

    Sure, they're good. But there is some especially good competition in the inverter welder marketplace, which is refreshing for customers, like me.

    So, how about responding to some reciprocal criticism by articulating what amplitude control is on the HTP unit, and how it's used, since it was seemingly equated to a selection of wave forms that the HTP does not have, but the Everlast does.

    Name:  Amplitude Control.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwr View Post
    I'm sorry, did the guy who as of six months ago hadn't even welded aluminum in his laundry room/shop just question other peoples' experience or knowledge?
    Last edited by C. Livingstone; 01-04-2016 at 11:03 AM.

  3. #53
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by yesindeed View Post
    This thread has become a lot more informative than I would have guessed.

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    By far, me too.

  4. #54
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Livingstone View Post
    ...

    Yes, I know, this thread started as a of sort crusade against Everlast and Chinese quality,...

    I started this thread and it was not a crusade against Everlast or Chinese quality. I have an old Powertig 200DX Stick/Tig machine that i got in 2010 and it still works great. I have no issue with it or the company. I just mostly enjoyed the witty tone of the video looking at the technology inside a Chinese machine.


    My Everlast has the old faceplate like this:

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    I couldn't watch the whole video it was keeping me from watching some paint dry and then kill myself...



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  6. #56
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Tip for youtube:

    If you switch to html5 mode: https://www.youtube.com/html5

    There you have the option of changing the playback speed.



    I watch a lot of stuff at 1.25x and 1.5x -- especially ChuckE2009 when he waffles on a bit
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  7. #57
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Zizzle View Post
    Tip for youtube:

    If you switch to html5 mode: https://www.youtube.com/html5

    There you have the option of changing the playback speed.



    I watch a lot of stuff at 1.25x and 1.5x -- especially ChuckE2009 when he waffles on a bit
    Thanks. Good tip




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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Livingstone View Post
    Yeah,

    And I'm not hearing an answer!

    I know, "How dare he even ask!" Ha, ha, ha...

    I mean, I answered a four of Zizzle's questions completely and succinctly enough.

    Can you answer the question or not?

    "Do any HTP 221 users actually know what amplitude control is or how to use it?"

    Yes, I know, this thread started as a of sort crusade against Everlast and Chinese quality, which are not above criticism, and that there is an especially receptive audience for that, as host here are in the Yankee Doodle Dandy welding machine crowd, which is OK. I've made a living for a few years using a Lincoln Pipeliner, a Miller Big 40, Bobcats, Hobarts, Rangers, Millermatics, etc.

    Sure, they're good. But there is some especially good competition in the inverter welder marketplace, which is refreshing for customers, like me.

    So, how about responding to some reciprocal criticism by articulating what amplitude control is on the HTP unit, and how it's used, since it was seemingly equated to a selection of wave forms that the HTP does not have, but the Everlast does.

    Name:  Amplitude Control.jpg
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    I for one do. Just because one person on YellowBullet doesn't or didn't understand it, you assume no one else does either? MANY users of Dynasty 350s (and now 280s with the expansion card) knew and know what independent amplitude control is. It is not exclusive to the HTP 221 welder. So like I said, I know how to use it. Heck, when when I first read about it, I knew what it was. It's not that difficult if you have a few neuron connections in your noggin.
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    After seeing the photos of Chinese welders, I got curious about all the dead space inside and pulled the cover off mine. Here's the inside of a Dynasty 210 DX. I don't know what I'm looking at, but seems jam-packed by comparison:





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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Smith View Post
    After seeing the photos of Chinese welders, I got curious about all the dead space inside and pulled the cover off mine. Here's the inside of a Dynasty 210 DX. I don't know what I'm looking at, but seems jam-packed by comparison:





    I'm no expert either, but something about the Dynasty guts seems nicer/neater. And look mah, no solder party!

    Thanks for the picture.
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  11. #61
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Pictures*
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Hot-diggity, look at that capacitance bank. Of those are used to smooth out the output, no wonder everyone says it has a nice arc.
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  13. #63
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Well,

    One HTP 221 user, named Oscar, states that he knows what amplitude control is and how to use it. Isn't that something!

    OK, how about articulating on what amplitude control is and how it's used, like I was asking, so we can all hear about the implied benefits.

    I have not presumed that ALL HTP user don't understand amplitude control or know how to use it. There was some rhetoric in there.

    But I'm starting to think that most HTP users on the forum here may have trouble articulating as much, and could be waiting for a Dynasty 350 user to come along and help them. Ha, ha, ha...
    Last edited by C. Livingstone; 01-04-2016 at 07:12 PM.

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Smith View Post
    After seeing the photos of Chinese welders, I got curious about all the dead space inside and pulled the cover off mine. Here's the inside of a Dynasty 210 DX. I don't know what I'm looking at, but seems jam-packed by comparison:
    Thanks for posting these!

    Very interesting. I might do a video at some point, but it seems the Dynasty 210 is a completely new design compared to the the 200.





    Anyway, back to the new 210.

    Great looking design. Modern surface mount construction. Looks like they used a lacquer coating on the boards to help reduce dust problems. Look how much less wiring there is than the chinese welders. And where there is wriring, look at the large, positive locking connectors. Looks like they are using teflon coated high-temperature wiring in places too. Nice big bus bars held by machine hardware on nice big IGBT devices. Crimped & heat shrunk current carriers.

    Some thought has gone into the mechanical stability here. A bunch of stuff is glued. Not sure why they think to do that but still leave a bunch of TO-220 devices free standing.

    Also check out the silk screen on the boards - they have labelled all the components. Some of the chinese machine skip that which makes it harder to work on if you are lucky enough to have the circuit diagrams.

    What a nice piece of engineering. All the moulded plastic parts make me think they have more than just a few EEs working on this design. Since we can't see any of the main heatsink, I guess they use some of the moulded parts to increase their cooling efficiency. Which means a smaller heatsink and fan. Whereas the chinese still take the brute force of a big old set of heatsinks and a giant fan or 2 that blasts all the time.

    Overall the Chinese have a long way to lift their game to this level.

    It seems that you really are getting what you pay for with the blue machine here, not just the brand name.

    Would be great to see some shots of Lincoln machines too.
    Last edited by Zizzle; 01-04-2016 at 06:15 PM.
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Oh,

    Sorry, I thought the video producer started the thread. It did seem like he had a problem with Everlast and might be seeking to take some kind of subtle, bad press revenge therein.

    Sure, it's fun to challenge ideas.

    Criticism is good, as it's usually where progress comes from. Ad hominems, not so much.


    [QUOTE=yesindeed;6717701]I started this thread and it was not a crusade against Everlast or Chinese quality. I have an old Powertig 200DX Stick/Tig machine that i got in 2010 and it still works great. I have no issue with it or the company. I just mostly enjoyed the witty tone of the video looking at the technology inside a Chinese machine.

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    The older american transformer machines might be reliable, but in my recent experiance the small inverters are just as bad as the chinese machines, ive gonethrough 4 maxstar 200's so far since may last year

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    All that space up front and a bunch of highly paid engineers still couldn't figure out how to put the Damn power switch on the front of the machine!

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Go Miller, I'm no EE and have little clue wtf I'm looking at inside an inverter. But boy that looks pretty, nice neat reinforced and we'll engineered.

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Ha, ha, ha!

    Yeah, engineers on ever continent seem to be conspiring on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by soutthpaw View Post
    All that space up front and a bunch of highly paid engineers still couldn't figure out how to put the Damn power switch on the front of the machine!

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Yeah,

    I does.

    The Dynasty units are undoubtedly a zenith point in inverter TIG welders.

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy There View Post
    Go Miller, I'm no EE and have little clue wtf I'm looking at inside an inverter. But boy that looks pretty, nice neat reinforced and we'll engineered.

  21. #71
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by soutthpaw View Post
    All that space up front and a bunch of highly paid engineers still couldn't figure out how to put the Damn power switch on the front of the machine!
    I suspect you're not the first to complain. They added a standby button to the front. It's at the upper left.

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Zizzle View Post
    Thanks for posting these!

    Very interesting. I might do a video at some point, but it seems the Dynasty 210 is a completely new design compared to the the 200.





    Anyway, back to the new 210.

    Great looking design. Modern surface mount construction. Looks like they used a lacquer coating on the boards to help reduce dust problems. Look how much less wiring there is than the chinese welders. And where there is wriring, look at the large, positive locking connectors. Looks like they are using teflon coated high-temperature wiring in places too. Nice big bus bars held by machine hardware on nice big IGBT devices. Crimped & heat shrunk current carriers.

    Some thought has gone into the mechanical stability here. A bunch of stuff is glued. Not sure why they think to do that but still leave a bunch of TO-220 devices free standing.

    Also check out the silk screen on the boards - they have labelled all the components. Some of the chinese machine skip that which makes it harder to work on if you are lucky enough to have the circuit diagrams.

    What a nice piece of engineering. All the moulded plastic parts make me think they have more than just a few EEs working on this design. Since we can't see any of the main heatsink, I guess they use some of the moulded parts to increase their cooling efficiency. Which means a smaller heatsink and fan. Whereas the chinese still take the brute force of a big old set of heatsinks and a giant fan or 2 that blasts all the time.

    Overall the Chinese have a long way to lift their game to this level.

    It seems that you really are getting what you pay for with the blue machine here, not just the brand name.

    Would be great to see some shots of Lincoln machines too.
    As far as what they have in design, they lack in duty cycle. You may knock the fan or two (actually new 255ext's and some others have 4) on the Everlast, but you don't hear people complaining about the duty cycle which is typically much higher at max amps. You knocked all the daughter boards on earlier models on Everlast units, but have ignored the free standing, largely unsupported ones on the Miller 200, with through hole technology, which was what was available when you made the videos. Again, you make statements that are made in a vacuum, without understanding of what is normal or not. It's more of an axe to grind than an open, comparative, honest evaluation.

    You fail to mention the repairability of surface mount boards is much less in the long run...and the costs. The costs of the board may be more than machines value at the end of the warranty...something that really ticks people off when they have to have their just out of warranty name brand unit repaired.
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  23. #73
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by lugweld View Post
    As far as what they have in design, they lack in duty cycle. You may knock the fan or two (actually new 255ext's and some others have 4) on the Everlast, but you don't hear people complaining about the duty cycle which is typically much higher at max amps. You knocked all the daughter boards on earlier models on Everlast units, but have ignored the free standing, largely unsupported ones on the Miller 200, with through hole technology, which was what was available when you made the videos. Again, you make statements that are made in a vacuum, without understanding of what is normal or not. It's more of an axe to grind than an open, comparative, honest evaluation.

    You fail to mention the repairability of surface mount boards is much less in the long run...and the costs. The costs of the board may be more than machines value at the end of the warranty...something that really ticks people off when they have to have their just out of warranty name brand unit repaired.
    Actually if look closely the Dynasty 200 has clip-in board supports between the 2 vertical boards over the top of those giant panasonic caps. They are not unsupported.

    I would also expect Millers duty cycle ratings to be more conservative. Anyone can publish a duty cycle number. They duty cycle cut-out point for one machine may put it close to failing. The duty cycle number for another may have it barely getting warm.

    I'd be more interested in seeing device (and therefore junction temperatures) at the rated duty cycle. My money would be on the active devices being further into the safe zone on the Miller.

    I don't think you can really call Miller out for the repair ability when you are using soldered current carriers and rats-next wiring schemes.

    And the thing is, most repair shops don't really do board level repair much any more. Labour costs start to sky rocket, and let's face it, if you have enough skill to do that, you can probably be off earning more money doing design. Ideal scenario for a repair shop is to pull the cover off, notice a burned out board, order/pull from stock a replacement, install in a few mins, test, put the cover on and return to the customer. Show invoice with minimal labour plus a board from miller (which they probably also mark up a little). Customer is happy.

    And while we're at it, the machine I returned to you guys under warranty, you couldn't work out how to repair. So much for the Everlast repairability.
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  24. #74
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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Edit: Nevermind.

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    Re: Teardown video of a Chinese TIG machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Zizzle View Post
    Actually if look closely the Dynasty 200 has clip-in board supports between the 2 vertical boards over the top of those giant panasonic caps. They are not unsupported.

    I would also expect Millers duty cycle ratings to be more conservative. Anyone can publish a duty cycle number. They duty cycle cut-out point for one machine may put it close to failing. The duty cycle number for another may have it barely getting warm.

    I'd be more interested in seeing device (and therefore junction temperatures) at the rated duty cycle. My money would be on the active devices being further into the safe zone on the Miller.

    I don't think you can really call Miller out for the repair ability when you are using soldered current carriers and rats-next wiring schemes.

    And the thing is, most repair shops don't really do board level repair much any more. Labour costs start to sky rocket, and let's face it, if you have enough skill to do that, you can probably be off earning more money doing design. Ideal scenario for a repair shop is to pull the cover off, notice a burned out board, order/pull from stock a replacement, install in a few mins, test, put the cover on and return to the customer. Show invoice with minimal labour plus a board from miller (which they probably also mark up a little). Customer is happy.

    And while we're at it, the machine I returned to you guys under warranty, you couldn't work out how to repair. So much for the Everlast repairability.
    Well hold on there. I did have a Dynasty go down. A pre-Blue Lightning 350DX. It was out of warranty and due to the Fukushima nuclear plant, boards were in very short supply and none were available. Miller sent me a demo Dynasty700DX or a few weeks and eventually offered it to me at discount. I bought it.

    Boy Miller really dropped the ball on that one.
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