Making a non-existent classic car part.....

[yorkiepap]

Hey guys,
Haven't posted any interesting projects lately. Here's a dandy.

Most of you know I do classic/show car resto's & sometimes a really challenging project makes for interesting techniques. Here's one I'll share in case one of you may run into an issue like this.

Short story: My good customer, Steve, owns a car lot called International Motorcars a couple miles away. I've posted some repairs on Rolls Royce manifolds I've done for him. He has some fabulous & quite expensive rides on his lot from Lamborghini to Rolls Royce. Anyway, he has a superb collection of the older American iron that includes the pics I will post.

His latest dilemma is a resto on a showroom 1954 Buick Skylark convertible with all power......Hydraulic power, that is. The windows, top, & seat are all hyd. powered & there is where my talent comes into play. He needed a seat bracket that was integrated with the hydraulic actuator to operate the front seat. A worldwide search resulted in NADA......NOTHING available. He was in Boston & ran into a fellow from Texas who happened to also be restoring a 54 Buick Roadmaster & it has the same seat setup. Low & behold, the fellow sent Steve on loan, his part to be duplicated & in return, Steve provided the fellow with a much needed exhaust manifold for his Buick. Steve brought it to me after several shops declined or never made the part.

Here's how I tackled fabbing it & may give some of you some mental fodder if an issue arises for you to have to make something rare or non-existent. Remember, you need to have an original to insure precise measurements & physical parameters. After looking at the configuration with the angled sides, slots, tabs, & hole locations, I had only one choice......I had to FLATTEN IT to layout a template. The original was quite rusted, although sound, & I decided to just do it & if I had to, make the fellow a new one as I'm doing for Steve, just in case it cracked or broke.

Here's the pics:
1,2,3,4).......The Buick Skylark
5) The part needing fabbed.

Ok....gonna need (3) posts to get all the pics on.....(15) pics...... so PLEASE WAIT till I get all (3) posts on..... Thanks.

Denny

[yorkiepap]

Here's the 2nd group.....

These show how I flattened the bracket, scribed the outline on a sheet of 1/8" steel plate, cut the main section & initiated the cutting of all the mounting holes & side slots. I was gonna mill the slots, then thought about plasma cutting, & thinking about keeping costs down, I decided to cut the main inside with my 4.5" grinder with Sait .045 cutoff wheel & finish with a carbide cutter on my angle grinder. Worked nicely & quite fast.

Ok... on to the next set...

Denny

[TozziWelding]

Good job, keep em' alive, I cant tell you the number of parts I made for Dads 63' Rambler, and my old 65' Ford Pick Up before the repro companies came out.

[yorkiepap]

Last group...

Not being able to make the bends in my press, I simply slotted the bend lines as I do with many projects & bent them by hand & welded the outside corners. They came out nicely & the finished duplicate was exact. As you can see, making a template will allow you to reproduce as many as needed with exact parameters. The initial costs, timewise, are paid by the customer, of course, although any more will not bear the same price as you now know the time it takes to fab one. I had (3) hrs total @ $65/hr for fab/welding time. I told Steve any more will take 1.5hrs each & he can put his markup on it at whatever he chooses. He has a website for old car parts that he sells to those needing something rare or not available.

Anyway, I hope this may help some of you understand templates.... don't hesitate to ask any ?????.

Denny

[Rick V]

That was informative - thanks. Always interesting to see how someone else would go about it - based upon the tools available. Perhaps it would be possible to take digital photo's from several angles and have a computer program 'flatten' it and produce a CNC template.

[Big65mopar]

Yorkiepap you would be in heaven down in Cuba, most of the cars there are from the 40's and 50's and a few early 60's so the mechanics down there have to fabricate new parts all the time. There are some interesting photo articles around including one from National Geographic.

[yorkiepap]

Hey guys,
Thanks...... glad to see it may help someone. BTW, my buddy at the tin shop has a huge CNC plasma setup & I'm gonna take the template to him & see if he can get the configurations into his computer. Somewhere someone referred to being able to scan an item & have it inputted into a cad/cam program....... I'm not that computer saavy so I'll have to listen to what he tells me. I'm sure there is a way.

To Tozzi: Yeah, I still do a lot of repro's on a lot of the old farm equipment around here each year as most of the old American mfg's are long gone. It is nice $$$$$....

To Mick120: Yeah, I hear ya. I'm gonna do some checking for someone who can do some CNC data inputting regarding these kinds of jobs. If I can get the templates made economically, I can get quite competitive pricewise & may put some of the really hard-to-find car items/parts on the net.

To Big65mopar: I asked Steve if he tried Cuba since there are so many 'ol jalopies from the 40's-60's. He said his worldwide search turned up nothing.....probably cause they don't have computers down there. After all, Castro wouldn't want his slaves to "see" the outside world.

Anyway, I'll update if I find someone who can set me up with cad/cam/CNC plasma.

Denny

[Tensaiteki]

[off topic]
Y'know we should start a WeldingWeb drinking game where everyone takes a drink when someone posts a picture that shows a grinder with no guard...
[/off topic]

[Antibling]

Great work, on the Cuba thing, if you can find it, or you can find it on netflix, "Yank Tanks" it shows some of the top mechanics and fabricators in Cuba. From the guy that makes asbestos brake pads himself with his (literally) bare hands, to a guy that makes trim and grilles and such with bare minimum of tools.

[Nitesky]

Necessity is the mother of invention. Thanks for the interesting thread.

[yorkiepap]

Hey guys,
As member Tensaiteki has indicated, my grinder has no guard on it. To the youngsters/newbies, I agree that the guard be left on. Since the quality/integrity of many cutoff wheels/grinding wheels/discs may be suspect to failure, the possibility of injury is a primary concern. Many don't realize the physical damage a disintegrating disc/wheel can impose to your body, especially your eyes. I strongly recommend you keep your guards on, even if I choose not to. I use high quality Sait discs/wheels & never had an issue, although not to say that it will not happen. When cutting/grinding, I wear my safety glasses, full face shield, gloves, & my welding jacket. Personally, I need to have the guard off for the many types/configurations I have to do, so I take a chance.....MY CHOICE. Remember, you have to live with the results of your choices, so THINK before making a decision.

Thanks Tensaiteki for pointing out the hazard to those who have little/no experience with grinders.

Denny

[Quick]

Good work doing it by hand. I cut with CNC plasma. It is easy to scan and convert into a cutting file. At that point its eazy to make any needed adjustments to the drawing and cut. Half the things I cut start as a scan. Some times a photo.

[app-ironworksllc]

Nice work, Pappy.

Every once in a while I get something like that, it's always a fun challenge. Last classic part I made was a battery tray for a '56 Mercury Montclair Pheaton.

So what else you have to show us?

[Hardware]

Very informative, great looking result and gorgeous car!

I have one stupid question...

Why flatten the original part (and risk breaking it) instead of tracing it out with cardboard or construction paper?

[zapster]

Denny that's cheating..


The originals do exist..
The pics don't lie..

Nice job on the reproductions!
That's exactly what you should show the young ones..what we need more of..

Saving the way it WAS not the way it is...

...zap!

[jimson]

Did it fit?

[Oldiron2]

Hey guys,
As member Tensaiteki has indicated, my grinder has no guard on it. To the youngsters/newbies, I agree that the guard be left on. Since the quality/integrity of many cutoff wheels/grinding wheels/discs may be suspect to failure, the possibility of injury is a primary concern. Many don't realize the physical damage a disintegrating disc/wheel can impose to your body, especially your eyes. I strongly recommend you keep your guards on, even if I choose not to. I use high quality Sait discs/wheels & never had an issue, although not to say that it will not happen. When cutting/grinding, I wear my safety glasses, full face shield, gloves, & my welding jacket. Personally, I need to have the guard off for the many types/configurations I have to do, so I take a chance.....MY CHOICE. Remember, you have to live with the results of your choices, so THINK before making a decision.

Thanks Tensaiteki for pointing out the hazard to those who have little/no experience with grinders.

Denny

Thought I'd add a bit of information to this point.

For a 4 1/2" grinding wheel spinning at 10,000 rpm: (IIRC, that's about the normal speed)

Circumference is 4.5" x 3.1416 = 14.137" = 1.178 feet

At 10,000 rpm, the surface speed of the wheel's edge is thus 11,780 fpm. or about 200 fps which is plenty fast enough to cause some damage.

"Remember, you have to live with [or die from] the results of your choices, so THINK before making a decision."


.

[yorkiepap]

Hey guys,
I'm pleased to see interest in learning how do do it the "'ol fashioned " way.....BY HAND. I know CNC plasma makes quick work of these kinds of projects, although I feel that the majority of youngsters(under 50 is a youngster to me) will benefit by learning to do things by hand & getting the "feel" of the metal & how to work it into usefulness. We 'ol timers had some great mentors that showed us many of the lost old world techniques that created unbelievable & quite unique crafts. I like to pass on some to those who really want to learn the world of metal manipulation that often cannot be done with a CNC plasma setup.

To Hardware: First, your question is not stupid.....quite the opposite. By flattening the piece, the exact outside dimensions can be transferred to the template plate & I leave a wee bit of xtra so I can clamp the original piece to it & then cut the outside dimensions to exactness. I tried once to do it with paper/cardboard without success for exactness. It's the shape, the radii, the angles that pose the problems with that method. Besides, once I had the exact template, I could have made a one for the owner at no expense to him. In addition, the original was .092 & the repros are .125.....see, better.

Hey Zap: Yes, Steve was certainly fortunate to run into the fellow in Boston that was generous enough to chance lending it to him. I know Steve gave him reassurances that it would be returned & not be concerned with losing or damaging it. Yes, I simply want to encourage the youngsters to learn to use their skills with a REAL "hands-on" project. Besides, it really tests you mettle if you can learn to simply make the metal do what you want it to do.

To jimson: Steve was quite pleased with the finished unit & asked me to stay for a test fitup & run. The only suggestion I offered was for him to add a wee bit of lithium grease to the slots to allow the actuator to move smoothly. He had it in in 15min, & pushed the control lever & the seat moved like ball bearings on glass. His helper really gave me kudos on the perfect repro that finished the restoration of this magnificent car. Oh, BTW, the offers on that car exceeded $200K. I got a woody sitting behind the wheel of that beauty thinking of those days I grew up with all these kinds of beautiful, & very distinctive designs that you never had a problem identifying make & model. Today, you can't tell one from another......& the most insulting is all the friggin' PLASTIC used. Chrome got lost many years ago.....what a shame.

To app-ironworksllc: I have several more interesting projects I'll be putting up with some fascinating facts that I, even at my age, learned & was quite surprised. These will also show some interesting metal manipulation techniques that most never see.

Till the next episode..... keep tellin' that metal you're gonna do what "I" want you to be.

Denny

[shaeff]

Yorkiepap-

Very cool reproduction! I've used the same basic method (flattening of the original piece) to make copies of things that have deteriorated.

RE: no guard on the grinder. Heh, yeah. I've done that a few times with a cutoff wheel because my grinder didn't fit into a tight nook on a snowplow I was repairing for my brother. (cracked frame behind the fiberglass plow face).

Long story short, I was wearing welding gloves, pushed the grinder up into the nook, and it kicked back on me. Caught the tip of my right thumb at full speed and went right in like butter. Just barely missed the bone. That was on January 2nd, and it took so much flesh out that it didn't fully heal until 3.5 months later!

Needless to say, I'll refrain from doing that again, and bought a small 90* air cutoff/rotary tool that fits up into tight places much easier. Lesson learned.

I'll refrain from posting pics of the damage to my thumb. LOL.

[jakeru]

Might you have been able to wrap a piece of paper or manilla folder material around the original piece, to trace out its perimeter without needing to flatten it?

Nice work. I like your technique to bend the thick metal without much pressure, by scoring, bending alone the score line, and welding. I'll have to remember that one.

[shaeff]

Might you have been able to wrap a piece of paper or manilla folder material around the original piece, to trace out its perimeter without needing to flatten it?

Nice work. I like your technique to bend the thick metal without much pressure, by scoring, bending alone the score line, and welding. I'll have to remember that one.

I meant to comment on this, too, but forgot. I've done a similar method, but never just like this. That's a very cool way to do it. I love learning this stuff!

[yorkiepap]

Hey guys,
Good to see those who find "old" techniques may indeed come in handy at some point in time. Yes, bending material does not really require a large, heavy-duty brake if the material is a reasonable size. I have bent 3/8" steel easily for some odd projects. There are several other posts I put on the forum that also show some of the configurations I have bent/welded with superb results.

To jakeru: Yes, I tried several different types/grades of paper/other materials to get an accurate repro for a template.....no luck with preciseness. The flattening does the trick.

Denny

[bert the welder]

Thanks for posting Pap, I really enjoy seeing this kind of project. I've run into it many times, where a job "can't" be done or would by super $$$$ because the shops being asked can't think pass the big, expensive, computer controlled, nano-millimeter measuring machines. Good old fashioned hand tools and some imagination, a vise and a "fine adjustment" tool, and you can make anything. Nice job.
One thing that did make me cringe was the flattening of the original. As the owner of that piece would have poop'd himself! Har Har. Risk of breaking or distorting would have been to great for me to chance, but power to ya. And kerf cut bends are awesome for small parts like that.
Keep showin' us punks how-to and we'll try and keep it alive!

[tig_21]

love seeing when people do this. I can find parts for my 1968 cougar (reproductions) but they are so exspensive sometimes. Plus, you can brag about how you made all these parts on the car. A lot of car guys can't say that. Nice work.
http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=59038
this thread shows the stainless overflow tank I built. pics aren't good quality. It cost me $10 compared to about $100 for one online.