Razorweld plasma cutter

[soutthpaw]

It's kind of like putting racing slicks on a Yugo. Yes it may have a little better traction than the stock tires, but it's not going to perform like those same tires on a sports car. Same idea I eluded to previously. The real HT consumables will probably last longer and cut better due to the specific materials and tolorances used in making them as opposed to the cheap metal and poor tolerances used in most China consumables. I bet if HT made consumables for the import torches they would still last longer than the stock chinese ones.

[jimcolt]

I think you are correct. Hypertherm specifies copper blends that are used for electrodes that transfer heat more efficiently from the hafnium insert, but these alloys are much harder to machine and cost more. Since aftermarket consumables producers are in it only for the money.....it is unlikely that this type of copper is used. There also are proprietary copper to hafnium manufacturing techniques that boost heat transfer, again difficult, and in some electrodes the manufacturing process is patent protected. Tolerances held on nozzles in regards to TIR concentricity are very tight...and can only be done on certain types of automatic machines. There also are inspection procedures (depending on part complexity) that check consumables for CTF (critical to function) dimensions to ensure repeatability. Hypertherm shop floor manufacturing is state of the art.....and it is all designed for quality and productivity. I just posted a short video of the 100,000th Powermax45 being built in our 71 Heater Road plant (where all Powermax's and Powermax consumables are built)....you can see some of what I'm talking about. The video is on the Hypertherm manufacturers forum. Jim Colt

Link to 100,000 PMX45 video http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php...45-being-built!

It's kind of like putting racing slicks on a Yugo. Yes it may have a little better traction than the stock tires, but it's not going to perform like those same tires on a sports car. Same idea I eluded to previously. The real HT consumables will probably last longer and cut better due to the specific materials and tolorances used in making them as opposed to the cheap metal and poor tolerances used in most China consumables. I bet if HT made consumables for the import torches they would still last longer than the stock chinese ones.

[mechanic416]

I think the Trafimet consumables will work well with this system, and if they made a good quaity unit then you can add the Trafimet s45 cnc torch and use it on your cnc table.

Check out some of the new itema Trafimet has come out with

http://asp-it.secure-zone.net/v2/ind...10/1239&lng=en

[Oldendum]

Mechanic 416,

I need to get me a Trafimet ERCOCUT Griff, mit HF und Sicherheitsverriegelung!

[Jeffronismo]

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the discussion. My goal was to get information/feedback regarding a new product that I hadn't seen much information on and also ask about the other torch option. (Hypertherm copy).

Hands down, if I had the $1800 for a powermax 45 right now- I'd own one. I have always been impressed by hypertherm and I know they have a lot of time and money invested in R&d and patents for a reason. Thank you Jim for your feedback... Not many guys from big companies take the time out of their day to answer questions for the "little guys" like myself. I have watched a lot of the videos from Lanse (chucke2009) and appreciate you getting together with him and making plasma cutting videos together because I do believe a lot of his followers are guys like me. That's cool.

The reason I was asking about the hypertherm style torch on the razorweld unit was because I can buy hypertherm consumables at any local shop and don't have to worry about having to order anything or parts becoming unavailable. I fully understand that the machine and torch will likely not perform to the abilities of a genuine hypertherm unit with a hypertherm torch using hypertherm consumables. For $1000+ less, I wouldn't really expect it to.

I talked to a friend of mine yesterday after realizing his shop just bought a razorweld plasma and they absolutely love it! I would definitely like to hear some feedback from mechanic and the others that have them ordered once they come in. My LWS quoted me just under $850 yesterday with the hypertherm torch copy. I know the torch listed for over $250 so I guess that's about right if Amazon is selling the unit for $600 ish.

[mechanic416]

The only way you will ever know is to buy it and try it for youself, thats what I would do.

[mechanic416]

wrong

[mechanic416]

Mechanic 416,

I need to get me a Trafimet ERCOCUT Griff, mit HF und Sicherheitsverriegelung!

Yea, me to.

[Brand X]

The S-45 torch is the one I would buy anyway.. I happen to like how it works with the many different tip styles and amps.. Looks like you can use three different amps one, .06/.08/.09 MM and S/M/L three different styles..Easy to get original on the net.. Even the China guys sell original Italian consumables.. The one little Italian INE 33 I had worked very nice with that torch..
.

[QCTechInsp]

I found some light about the "evil" and misterious torch. Not from razorweld but doing a simple cross check. The part number 03621CX is a torch manufactured by Tecmo Italy. They actually make consumables and torches not only for Hypertherm but for most other companies. There is another italian company called MB ,which also manufactures the same torch. So it seems they must have valid contracts with the companies for which they are selling their products and consumables. They have been in business since 1987,according to their company profile. I find that most things made in Italy are high quality. Im going to leave a few links so you can see the torch. The model is the TH-70. Maybe because of some country internet block, is not allowing me to see their website, but I saw the cached page and got some info from it. It all seems good. Hope this helps to the OP and others who already have ordered the machine.

http://www.plazma-***.com/katalog2013.pdf

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

MB dont have the TH model but the ST-70 model. Both seem to be good from 20-70 amps.

http://www.mbsrl.com/plasmacut/MB%20...-STM-TH-TM.pdf

So now at least we now it is an italian built torch for sure. It does not look so " evil " anymore. LOL..... it seems to call " join the dark side Luke..."


Edit: in the first link you have to replace the 3* with the letters a-----z------z. Due to the filters it is blocking it. That is the name of the website where I found the catalog so excuse me for any inconvenience.

[jimcolt]

The TECmo torches have been around for a few years...they are a copy of the Hypertherm Duramax....however need to use genuine Hypertherm consumables because of patent protection. Funny...there are a couple of Chinese companies that have copied the TECmo copy of the Duramax as well. There also are Chinese copies of patented Hypertherm consumables available if you look hard enough. While Hypertherm is flattered that everyone thinks our products are good ones to copy....our IP department will leave no stone unturned in protecting the products that we spent money designing.

As I said before....if you notice the specs on Hypertherm plasma cutters....you will see that the power supplies are designed to operate at higher load voltages. Earlier in this thread I posted that the Jasic 45 power supply is designed to run at 45 amps, 96 load volts at up to 30% duty cycle. The Powermax45 is designed for 45 amps, 132 load volts at 50% duty cycle. Put a Hypertherm shielded torch on a power supply that is not designed for the higher load voltage (required by the torch) and you will get lesser performance....and , you will reduce the already low duty cycle if you exceed that 96 volt rating on the Jasic. If you look at the 45 amp cut charts in the Hypertherm operators manual you will see that it takes much higher voltage to run shielded consumables than non shielded.

I would tend to agree that the Jasic (Razorweld) 45 amp system is likely better suited with its original Chinese copy of a Trafimet style torch in regards to its ability to produce cutting power. Hypertherm has always engineered its torch designs in conjunction with it's power supply designs....and this is one of the reasons. The wrong torch match will cut metal, however it will be compromised in terms of consumable life, cut capacity and can easily overload the design capacity of the power supply.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

[lugweld]

Funny thing Jim, Tec mo/Innotec (Innotec, chinese partner with tec mo)PT torches have been around longer than the duramax torch. They are not a duramax design and will not internchange. But the tecmo design is patented itself, and Lincoln's designed torch is the same except how the tip screws on. Lot's of companies use them including HTP. They are stable and work well. And for the price the cut quality and life span of consumables, it would take a long time to overcome the increase of price over the HT, beyond the warranty period anyway for most users.

[jimcolt]

TECmo has been in business for a number of years (mid to late 80's). To clarify, I am only talking about their copy of the Duramax torch.....the Duramax is only 5-1/2 years old. It uses Hypertherm Duramax consumables that have a number of strong patents.

Consumable life is what everyone claims....until you cut the same part under the same conditions with two different torches....that is the only way to claim accurate comparisons. Tecmo makes good torches.....so does Trafimet.

Jim Colt

Funny thing Jim, Tec mo/Innotec (Innotec, chinese partner with tec mo)PT torches have been around longer than the duramax torch. They are not a duramax design and will not internchange. But the tecmo design is patented itself, and Lincoln's designed torch is the same except how the tip screws on. Lot's of companies use them including HTP. They are stable and work well. And for the price the cut quality and life span of consumables, it would take a long time to overcome the increase of price over the HT, beyond the warranty period anyway for most users.

[QCTechInsp]

Thank you for the info Jim. As I said, I was addressing the op and also the ones that seem to already had ordered this machine. I think that if the ones that already ordered or have the machine, have the capacity of adding an italian built torch that works better with a higher amperage(up to 70 as per tecmo), this will give them longer consumable life, as the torch is designed to hold more heat without degrading.I would also agree that if the Tecmo are copies of the duramax and use hyp consumables they are in a higher standard than a chinese copy of an italian design.And if as you said before, your consumables are of special alloys that last longer and this tecmo torch can use them, it will also add some longevity to the consumables. Trafimet are by themselves very good torches. Havent heard any negatives about them. And they dont seem to cost an arm and a leg, even new. Anyway, I think that the options for this machine are good for a entry level machine and for all of us that cant justify a hypertherm at the moment. I dont see any of the other chinese copies having this options. Plus they have 3 year warranty here in ol' USA.Now,.. if only hypertherm could do a similar machine for even 850, then I would buy it on the spot. For 609 , this machine is a good value, specially if it have that capacity of adding italian made torches that use hypertherm consumables. At the end of the day, the metal will get cut and the consumable will last , and that is what is important. Carry on.

[jimcolt]

For the OP as well.....I agree that if price is the biggest purchase decision....the Razorweld45 (with their Trafimet style torch) is a good value as compared to most of the other low cost imports, I have mentioned this a few times in my responses.

In order to build a power supply and torch that would compete price wise......we (Hypertherm) would need to build a lower wattage (same amperage, lower load voltage = lower wattage) power supply (that would cost less to build) and design a different torch (maybe similar to our Powermax30XP torch, but with unshielded consumables.....to work with the lower wattage. Further, we likely would have to remove some features (boost conditioner circuit, pilot arc control circuit) and reduce duty cycle (smaller heat sinks, smaller output rectifiers cost less). However.....there are a lot of systems already available with these "removed" features at low prices. Then there is the issue of labor costs....our units are made in USA by employees that own the company and receive fair wages and benefits. It is unlikely that we will take a few engineering steps in reverse in order to compete with a pretty full market of low cost plasma cutters! More likely....we will keep improving the plasma cutting process through advanced engineering, faster speeds, better cut quality, higher reliability, etc. By investing our profits back into technology (as opposed to most companies paying stock holder dividends!) we tend to stay a few years ahead of our competitors that don't spend the money and resources on advanced engineering.

On consumables....it is not about special alloys...though that helps. Patents like: Spring Electrode and Conical Flow, manufacturing processes and techniques, as well as a few dozen others affect the cut speed, cut quality and consumable life. Anybody can use "special alloys".....though it adds difficulty with machinability and cost....so most do not.
Jim Colt

Thank you for the info Jim. As I said, I was addressing the op and also the ones that seem to already had ordered this machine. I think that if the ones that already ordered or have the machine, have the capacity of adding an italian built torch that works better with a higher amperage(up to 70 as per tecmo), this will give them longer consumable life, as the torch is designed to hold more heat without degrading.I would also agree that if the Tecmo are copies of the duramax and use hyp consumables they are in a higher standard than a chinese copy of an italian design.And if as you said before, your consumables are of special alloys that last longer and this tecmo torch can use them, it will also add some longevity to the consumables. Trafimet are by themselves very good torches. Havent heard any negatives about them. And they dont seem to cost an arm and a leg, even new. Anyway, I think that the options for this machine are good for a entry level machine and for all of us that cant justify a hypertherm at the moment. I dont see any of the other chinese copies having this options. Plus they have 3 year warranty here in ol' USA.Now,.. if only hypertherm could do a similar machine for even 850, then I would buy it on the spot. For 609 , this machine is a good value, specially if it have that capacity of adding italian made torches that use hypertherm consumables. At the end of the day, the metal will get cut and the consumable will last , and that is what is important. Carry on.

[Brand X]

I personalty would buy a cutmaster 42 over Razor weld..(in the $750 range from Zoro tools) it's much closer to output to the razorweld, then it to a Hypertherm 45. 4 year warranty, and a very proven machine.. Lots of good options like 120/240 volt..

[Brand X]

I personalty would buy a cutmaster 42 over Razor weld..(in the $750 range from Zoro tools) it's much closer to output to the razorweld, then it to a Hypertherm 45. 4 year warranty, and a very proven machine.. Lots of good options like 120/240 volt..

I like owning part of a company by having the option to buy it's stock. It's as USA as it gets.. Then when I buy their product, I am supporting myself. Guess it's what side of the fence you are on.. The truth is always not so black and white..

[jimcolt]

I was thinking the same thing...the specs are closer (CM42 and Razorweld45), better warranty, and buying from a known entity!

I personalty would buy a cutmaster 42 over Razor weld..(in the $750 range from Zoro tools) it's much closer to output to the razorweld, then it to a Hypertherm 45. 4 year warranty, and a very proven machine.. Lots of good options like 120/240 volt..

[SpEd]

I personalty would buy a cutmaster 42 over Razor weld..(in the $750 range from Zoro tools) it's much closer to output to the razorweld, then it to a Hypertherm 45. 4 year warranty, and a very proven machine.. Lots of good options like 120/240 volt..

Zoro is showing the Cutmaster 42 for $1150 here.

[Brand X]

Zoro is showing the Cutmaster 42 for $1150 here.

I bought one at $750 before. Have to wait for the 30% off.. I also got a rebate.. Anyway when the Razorweld was over $800.00 I thought it was not a very good value. (risk)

[SpEd]

good point!

[Brand X]

Best deal I have ever found was the INE 33 at Amazon. Sold it with a package deal of my Tweco 211i
It was a real Italian cutter that had used the original S-45 torch.. $472.00 and worked excellent. Power supply was super light weight, excellent user interface with quite advanced logic. Adjustable genny input settings, pilot arc..,sleep timers, and just a very advanced unit..If it saw input power it did not like, it would not even turn on.. (Detects dirty power) little things that were awesome all the way through.. I have great respect for some of the Italian stuff. I also like their motorcycles..

PS, power supply weighed about 8 pounds..

[QCTechInsp]

I bought one at $750 before. Have to wait for the 30% off.. I also got a rebate.. Anyway when the Razorweld was over $800.00 I thought it was not a very good value. (risk)

If you have a way for me to get a cutmaster for 750 I will buy it right now. I dont see it at that price anywhere in the internet. You got a 30% discount ,how??? I am trying to stick to what we can get right now according to the op question. And we are comparing to a 609 price. The cheapest present price on a cutmaster is 969. How long ago did you buy it?? If it was more than a year ago is not a fair pricing comparison.The iNE 33 is 1300 presently. How you got it for 400???

[Brand X]

The INE was posted on this board by a member. Asked if it was any good? I know their wire was, so took a flyer. If you sign up with Zoro tools, they will have a 30/25/20 Percent off a few times a year..(one day generally) Only difference between when I bought my 42 and now is the Victor $50 rebate is history.. Price is the same at Zoro tools..The razorweld will bump up to around $900 as soon as Amazon sells a few..

$915 on the cutmaster..

http://www.weldersupply.com/P/424/Th...amicsCutmaster

[KMA]

For discussions sake, how do the Klutch 375i and HF plasma cutters compare to the Razorweld since they are similarly priced?