Workplace safety, I need some help from the older guy's here

[smithdoor]

FYI if tell the boss no on something unsafe
You still will going out the door and make-up a store on your firing
But quit do safety it look better for you
Do not tell your new employer it was over safety

Dave

So despite the experience I do have, the reality is that I'm still young, only 26, and have been in the welding/constructions/maintenance/manufacturing field since I was 15, so the last 11 years, and the job I have at the moment is throwing up some major red flags for me in terms of the safety of things.

for context, the current job is replacing the economiser in a 100 megawatt boiler, which is a job I've done before but not on this particular site and normally I'm cursing the safety people for making life hard for no reason but to justify they're job, it's a big job, the boiler is 180 feet tall and the economiser takes up half of that, this job was originally meant to take 3 weeks (which I think was unrealistic from the start) but due to weather restricting crane activity, it's blown out to 5 weeks already and probably more, putting alot of pressure on the supervisor's, and as you know **** go's downhill.

A few of the things that have happened so far that I have concerns about.

Supervisor asked myself and 3 others a enter a confined space without a permit, gas test, JSA or rescue plan (keep in mind that this is a site that has MANY dangerous materials, including H2S gas, chlorine, hydrogen gas and a list of about 20 others on site), we obviously refused and were told by said supervisor that we "might as well pack out bags and go home"

Multiple instances of being directed to work with other work group's working above or below us, and we're not talking small jobs, we're talking lifting 5-30 ton pieces of scrap with a crane, tonight it was scaffolders building a deck above us.

being directed to work at heights without fall protection.

There is a flare stack on top of the boiler that burns H2S gas, this flare has been impacting the crane works, so the solution put forward has been to vent the H2S unburned instead, for anyone that doesnt know H2S is one of the nastiest and most toxic gasses you could come across in industry, 0.1% concentration causes instant death in a single breath, 0.015% causes permanent damage to vision, there have been zero controls put in place for the release of the H2S, and to top it off H2S is heavier than air so it could pool in the area's below it, where we are working.

Being directed to do demolition work with the thermal lance without any breathing protection, and with only coveralls, a cotton hood and oxy shield instead of a thermal protection suite.

now the problem is, this is a very well paying job, around the $5000 a week take home range, but it is a smaller, local company performing the work and I don't want to burn bridges, but I also dont want to end up dead or permanently disabled, what is the best way to go about ensuring the safety of myself and my workmates without destroying my reputation?

[JGPenfield]

You do know why the pay is$5000 per week, don’t you. It is not for your superior welding skills. It is because it is a dangerous job. Even though a new supervisor fixed the egregious safety concerns, it is still a very dangerous job. You only want that pay, but you certainly don’t need it. Once you get used to that pay you won’t be able to give it up and you will taking these high risk jobs for the rest of your short life.


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[ttoks]

You do know why the pay is$5000 per week, don’t you. It is not for your superior welding skills. It is because it is a dangerous job. Even though a new supervisor fixed the egregious safety concerns, it is still a very dangerous job. You only want that pay, but you certainly don’t need it. Once you get used to that pay you won’t be able to give it up and you will taking these high risk jobs for the rest of your short life.


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Mate you have absolutely no idea what my financial situation or the economic situation in my country/state is, and you've got no idea why I was hired or if I need the money or not, so I think you know where you can put your uninformed opinion.

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[OPUS FERRO]

ttoks

Congrads - I hope your result - is the apogee of your craft/safety issues . . .


But - reciprocally . . . we must respect Country Metals's perspective . . .

As a business owner who would have bid on jobs like that, if you did everything to
the letter OSHA said to, I would go broke, but at the same time, if you let me do
what I want, someone would end up dead. Now that is an example, but it's how to
make the business makes the most money for a company.

I am glad you decided to have a sit down because dead people can't bring their kids
to school. Sometimes it takes more guts to do the right thing, then to do the wrong
thing.

Translation - if, there are no contractors - there is no work for craftsman . . .

Country Metals's - Real issue - issues . . .

Is: a nation-wide shortage of craftsman - that can do dangerous work - without
being dangerous . . . [even, with all PPE ] . . .

America's work force is soft - Perspectives welcome . . .


Opus

[thegary]

Mate you have absolutely no idea what my financial situation or the economic situation in my country/state is, and you've got no idea why I was hired or if I need the money or not, so I think you know where you can put your uninformed opinion.

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Good response. The job is not unsafe if done properly . The money is there because the job is hard and takes skills that take time to learn . Its also long hrs, here in the states it is usually 7-12's. Here in the USA you would be in the boiler makers union doing that job. Here it is a very safe inviornment mainly because the customers make sure their contractors follow the safety rules. In fact the contractors have to provide saftey work history when biding on project like the one you are on. If their safety history is not to certain standards they are not allowed to turn in their bid.

[Willie B]

Facilities need to run to earn dollars. Cowboys are concentrated during shut downs. Human life has no value to a vice president faced with zero income/big expense. they can't think past it.

A few times I've had similar conversations:

Bob: "How long will it take you?"

Me: "Three weeks if you stay out of the way."

Bob: "I can give you all the help you need."

Me: "Yes, that would slow down the process."

Next Day:

"Is this too big a job for you?"

Me: "If you throw too many people into the mix, it will be."

Next day:

"So you are absolutely sure you can do it in two weeks?

Me: "No, I'm thinking four."

Next day:

"You've got 9 days. The engineer will be here mid week to start up, and confirm everything is perfect."

Me: "Five weeks."

First day of shut down: 15 men arrive on scene with 9000 LBS of tools each. The reasonably close parking spaces are filled with Corvettes. The white collar types are 400 feet away from their cars sitting around a conference table bragging how a five week project will be done in 9 days.

Ultimately, the project I'm thinking of was ready to test in six weeks. The out of state engineer had to be physically restrained for 6-1/2 weeks. Upon test, product burst into flame. Engineer was later fired. Three months later, it was completed, and working very well.


Bob ain't an engineer, but he can design a manufacturing facility!

[CAVEMANN]

Willie, that kinda reminds me of an old Machinist I worked with, we were in a shutdown and they brought a huge actuator for part of the smelter process equipment in for repair from from some yo yo hyper extending it, the job was assigned to Roy, he was a great guy, just don't get in his way, so he got everything set on stands and gathered tools, usually for Roy, a 5 gallon bucket. He got to work and everything was going well and then contractor foremen and smelter foremen started showing up and pretty soon Roy couldn't move because he was walled in, he grabbed his bucket and hunkered under the actuator and went back to work , low and behold within minutes they were hunkered next to the actuator and had their hands and fingers in the way, so Ole Roy being the kraut he was pick up the bucket and in one swift circular spin slung the wrenches out at all the congregates and cleared the house. They didn't come back until the job was done. Roy was one of those people that they just needed, PERIOD. Oh the good times had with the old fart.

[Willie B]

On the project I mentioned the Erector crew were all good guys, and worked as a team very effectively. Their boss, (one of the Corvettes), would get bored with the conference table, and come out to "help". He was the least qualified to operate, and had no value for human life. At one point he hoisted a 2000 LB piece of equipment with a rough terrain man lift. The strap he used was about 20 feet longer than it should have been. It was spinning, and swinging like a pendulum. He knocked the stepladder out from under my son.

At one point he was pushing my new welder leads across the rough concrete floor under the forks of a forklift. I exploded! Then I went to the office, informed the owner I was leaving if he didn't take that A hole to the office, and keep him there.

[CAVEMANN]

Why is it that management type people seem to think that more people is better, I mean you can only put so any people in an area and still be able to move and work.

[pgk]

Glad it worked out for the best for you Ttoks

[ttoks]

Glad it worked out for the best for you Ttoks

Best is subjective, I'm under another supervisor now, but the old one is still running the rigging crew.

At pre start today one of the rigger'a asked "when we lift the wall in will you make sure the scaffolders working below in the hopper will be told to move out of the way?"

supervisor: "yeah for sure, it'll be all good"

30 ton panel float's into the boiler house, supervisor is on the job standing next to the hopper the scaffolders were building in, we look down into the hopper, scaffolder's are still building, they never get told to move out of the way.

He's still running the crane that is floating in loads up to 50 ton above our heads, and he aint stopping work below the load.

[Virgil5]

Why is it that management type people seem to think that more people is better, I mean you can only put so any people in an area and still be able to move and work.

Generally you find that type of management either has a wall full of Diplomas and can't figure out which end of the hammer to hold, or is related to either upper management or ownership.
Usually they get on the job deck and explain how they want the howdayacallit fastened to the thingamagig properly this time so it don't fall off again, weld it good, use extra rods if you need to.

[pgk]

Best is subjective, I'm under another supervisor now, but the old one is still running the rigging crew.

At pre start today one of the rigger'a asked "when we lift the wall in will you make sure the scaffolders working below in the hopper will be told to move out of the way?"

supervisor: "yeah for sure, it'll be all good"

30 ton panel float's into the boiler house, supervisor is on the job standing next to the hopper the scaffolders were building in, we look down into the hopper, scaffolder's are still building, they never get told to move out of the way.

He's still running the crane that is floating in loads up to 50 ton above our heads, and he aint stopping work below the load.

Oh My! Keep your eyes and ears open.. And good luck

[JGPenfield]

Mate you have absolutely no idea what my financial situation or the economic situation in my country/state is, and you've got no idea why I was hired or if I need the money or not, so I think you know where you can put your uninformed opinion.

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Ttoks
You might be an excellent welder. But even if you were the best welder to be found, you would not be paid $5,000 per week just for your welding skill. It appears my earlier prediction has already come true. You “need” this pay because you have some financial obligations from all those previous high paying high risk jobs got you into. I was trying to give advice on life and career, but obviously you don’t want that. What you want is advice on how to survive this job until it is done so you can then go find another high risk high pay job. And did I not predict that this would still be a dangerous job even with a new supervisor?


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[CAVEMANN]

Time for osha!

[Willie B]

Crane operator arrived for a recent job. Where the house of his crane was located, he couldn't see the floor on the other side of the fence.

He asked "Who gives the orders here." Everybody pointed at Howard, a young guy with no specific title on that job, but his utter competence earned him a lot of confidence.

Noel, the crane operator said in a calm voice; "Howard gives me signals, nobody else." "Until the piece being set is in position, ready to be fastened, I want as few people as possible here."

In minutes, the first 10000 LB piece was in position to be fastened. Without his words, it would have been a cluster fu@& of everybody competing with each other, giving conflicting directions. It would have taken much longer, and somebody might have gotten hurt.

The greatest safety precaution is a cool head.




We rarely work with big corporate builders, but I cringe when we do on occasion.

Last round:

They asked my son how long we would need to rough in. He negotiated them up to 12 days. When I learned of this I went to the Superintendent, and corrected him to 24. We are a two man crew. It was a 20,000 square foot commercial building being converted to a group of doctors. Just before this I had learned the building, being sufficiently tall for two stories would get a steel frame, supporting a poured concrete floor system for a second floor to be rented to another customer. No extra time would be allowed. Steel work would be concurrent with the other trades doing their jobs.

When we were notified the building was ready to start electrical rough in, sheetrockers were there hanging boards. A bee hive has fewer workers. The building was cut up into a maze of hallways leading to dozens of small examining rooms. No matter where you needed to be, a crew of duct installers blocked the hallway. The first step in construction was to close off all but one doorway. It was 400' from the nearest parking space. My van is my tool box. I'd spend the day hiking, not working.

I have a bakers rack, a rolling structure 2.5' X 7' X 6' tall. I brought in to consolidate our materials, and be somewhat portable. After a few days I was told it had to go. Material storage would have to be in vehicles parked 400-500' away.

This crew finished their day at 3:30 PM. We worked until 10:00 PM. We were told that wouldn't be allowed. I responded: "You need a new electrician." They gave in.

Net result:

This job took as long to complete as I might have predicted. There were countless man hours wasted as people waited for others to move, or finish, and get out of the way. No one ever concentrated on their work, there were endless interruptions. Ultimately, most sub contractors lost money, as they hadn't factored the corporate obstacles that would be thrown in their way, or the incredible waste of time of too many people. I believe spreading out the scheduling, bringing in the finishing crew after the rough in crew, would have been more efficient. Half as many bodies at any time would have accomplished more, sooner.

[Johnmm]

I caught a whiff of strong acid once, I think HNOS3, and thought my guts were dissolving and I was dead. I remember thinking I would rather be just on fire or drowning.

[crab fisherman]

Why is it that management type people seem to think that more people is better, I mean you can only put so any people in an area and still be able to move and work.

Spot on CAVEMAN!

I might add, lots of the work can be done incorrectly in a short amount of time. So much in many circumstances that they are expensive to correct and "we" begin to lose confidence in a lot of the work already completed.

[ttoks]

Ttoks
You might be an excellent welder. But even if you were the best welder to be found, you would not be paid $5,000 per week just for your welding skill. It appears my earlier prediction has already come true. You “need” this pay because you have some financial obligations from all those previous high paying high risk jobs got you into. I was trying to give advice on life and career, but obviously you don’t want that. What you want is advice on how to survive this job until it is done so you can then go find another high risk high pay job. And did I not predict that this would still be a dangerous job even with a new supervisor?


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Well there are a few things here that are troubling, the first and foremost being the assumption that a dangerous job has to be an unsafe one, my line of work still is, and always will be dangerous, the Thegary put it perfectly, and mindset's like your's are what get people killed in this industry, the "it's dangerous already so just put up with it" is a mindset that went by the wayside 40 year's ago, my father built the hazelwood power station where the boiler's were contracted to Wilcox & Babcocks, they're quote included 40 projected fatalities during construction, they were happy when there was only 36.

20 year's later the Loy Yang power station was built locally as well, the job was twice the size of the Hazelwood power station, but there were ZERO fatalities during construction.

just because the job is dangerous doesn't mean it has to be unsafe.

The other thing that really grind's me is your assumption that just because I work on SOME jobs that pay well I must have been incredibly irresponsible and be in a huge mountain of debt forcing me to take dangerous well paying jobs to pay for it, the reality is that I live in a very modest 2.5 bedroom home (2 bedroom plus study) in a fairly poor and so cheap area and I drive a 9 year old car I bought secondhand that doubles as my kid mobile, the only debt I have is my mortgage, and I spend almost nothing on my hobbies or interest's either as I simply can't afford to, and even with living what I consider to be a very modest life I'm still forced to take jobs with no security, commutes up to 2 hours each way to work and sometimes interstate just to make ends meet.

What is true is that my area in particular, but the field in general in this country has taken a massive downturn since 2009, if this job last's for 4 weeks it will be 1/2 to 1/3 of my total income for the year, there isn't much work around here, and due to my kids I have to stay in the area, I can't move a state over for work like you can in the states, the nearest place to me that's experiencing a "boom" is 2000 miles away.

So yes, I kind of do have no option but to work this job unless my plan to to go bankrupt and live in a cardboard box begging on the street, this one job will pay my house repayments for almost 3 years, perhaps try not to be so goddamn judgmental and consider that everyone is in completely different circumstances

[Blackslacks]

As a business owner who would have bid on jobs like that, if you did everything to the letter OSHA said to, I would go broke, but at the same time, if you let me do what I want, someone would end up dead.

Your statement is very revealling. You think safety is too expensive. And your apparent disreguard for your employees lives/well being says a lot about you. Safety should be first and formost. You know the rules going in, so bid accordingly.

[Country Metals]

Your statement is very revealling. You think safety is too expensive. And your apparent disreguard for your employees lives/well being says a lot about you. Safety should be first and formost. You know the rules going in, so bid accordingly.

Wow, way to be a quick to judge jackass. So I guess you have been to my shop, know everything I do, and see everything at all times.... Wow, I need to be just like you.

I on the other hand, actually have a 100% safety rate in MY business. It's clear with your most likely "retired employee" status that you can comment on being an employer who deals with all this.

I, on the other hand, do a lot of difficult jobs that require some odd ways of doing things, but I always put people's safety first. But if you need to change out a light bulb that is 4 1/2 feet off the ground, do you run and get your harness and D ring? Well OSHA says you must do that. I bet you don't just like everyone else.... But it's the rule, and if you break that 1, your still not putting safety first.

I also purchase specific grinders for different uses to force people to be safe... Oops, I guess I'm being greedy spending all that extra money to keep everyone safe....

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[ljmelius]

But if you need to change out a light bulb that is 4 1/2 feet off the ground, do you run and get your harness and D ring?

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If the bulb is that low, I would need a hard hat. 4.5’ is well below my 6’ stature. Hahaha

Just kidding.

I agree with you. And working in a gravel pit. MSHA is just as bad as far as putting certain safety policies in place that are very production/cost prohibitive.
For example. The MSHA ruling on ladders and tiring off, states that any time you elevate yourself with a potential of falling, you need fall protection. They don’t put a height on the rule, so even if I’m one rung off the ground and the inspector don’t like it, he can give me a citation.

[steve45]

Wow! I'm surprised nobody has Stop Work Authority. This has become the industry standard in the oil & gas industry. ANYBODY can stop ANY job for ANY safety-related reason. PERIOD.

When people get hurt or kill, it costs companies a LOT of money. They've finally discovered that operating safely may take more time, but it costs less in the long run.

[xryan]

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

You already know what to do and are looking for someone to validate your conscience. You have thoroughly explained the seriousness of the flagrant and WILFUL complete disregard for everyone's saftey on that site. Honestly I'm quite shocked that many of my fellow tradesmen here have instructed you to to do nothing and wait until someone dies (very possibly yourself) while keeping notes for your estate to sue for damages to provide a replacement father for your daughter.

Call "Aussie OSHA" immediately. Your life has already been at risk as well as every other tradesmen on the job. Simply walking off does you no good to your reputation and when someone else walks in to replace you who is just starting and is naive to not know then is killed or maimed, how will you feel about being responsible for not speaking out. There are numerous ways you can notify the supervision on site, regulators, terrority and federal inspectors while still getting paid your wages and protected from reprisals.

Do the right thing.