pivot gate design help pls

[madduck]

first and foremost, i'm sorry my other thread posted. that was an accident and i couldn't figure out how to delete the thing. sorry to those who clicked on it. thanks for giving me a second chance.

long time lurker, haven't posted much cuz i dont have much to offer as far as knowledge. playing with metal is my therapy. it's cheaper than laying on a couch and i dont have to report it to my work.

the first pic is what i'm hoping my end product will look like. there will be something that completes the gate and makes it so you cant get through, i'm still messing with the design. the upper half of the wall portion will be welded wire or mesh prob with some sort of design also. still working on that.

my goal: build a wall with a pivot gate to keep folks from making it to my front door.
my questions: what should i use for the pivot on the bottom of the gate? the green arrows in the second pic are where the pivot points of the gate will be. can i build the door and frame separate, securing it with some sort of bolt in assembly?
my thoughts: for the bottom pivot something like a trailer axle. my plan of attack is build a frame, i.e. the blue part inthe second pic. the posts that are sticking down from the bottom of the frame would be about 18"-ish long and sunk in concrete. i'd like the build the frame and set it. i'd then weld the rest of the fencing on site. it's my front yard so if i can get 220 out front some how it shouldn't be a prob.

the really tough issue i'm having is how to build a frame/gate combo that can be built separate but completed by setting the gate in the frame and securing it with bolts. i think this would make the frame/gate assembly more manageable as far as weight is concerned. using lock washers and torx or hex bolts would work to make it just enough of a hassle that someone wouldn't try to unbolt it to get in. not that this house has anything worth the effort it would take to disassemble things to get through the gate. being a jeep guy i've got a full set of torx bits so i'd prob use those for the bolts just cuz. and is there a way to calculate the long side of the gate so i can try to balance it on the short side? i can always fill the short side with concrete if i need a dense counter balance.

so, if you made it this far, thank you. i'm looking forward to all y'all's suggestion.
cheers,

Screenshot 2018-11-23 20.33.31 by madduck00, on Flickr


p-door and frame by madduck00, on Flickr

[85burbanator]

You can buy what you want relatively cheap. You can also use commercial entry door hinges, just weld or screw them on where you need them.

[85burbanator]

Just realized this was outside, my bad.

[madduck]

after that rambling piece that was my orig post i dont think i mentioned where the pivot points are. they are where the green arrows are. they are points of rotation hence the trailer axle idea. wheel bearings would be a good bearing to use due to the loads that they are built to withstand. i'm just not sure if that's the best option.

below is a pic of a pivot door, where my idea originated.

[madduck]

Just realized this was outside, my bad.

no prob. thanks for chiming in.

[SlowBlues]

You can use regular hinges attached to a small piece of tube welded perpendicular to the center of the top and bottom of outer frame, then weld to door. The door wil pivot around the center pieces differently depending on orientation, plan accordingly. be sure to leave a gap on each side to clear the corner as it rotates out. Since the door will always be in the center of the entrance (in the damned way) be sure you make it big enough to bring things in and out (couches, fridges, etc.). You could also use thrust bearings/washers and make a simple axle setup, if in freezing conditions make the bottom axle stationary/anchored to floor and place the bearing assembly in the door above it. RED: welded tubes BLUE: hinges rotate 90 degrees in your mind's eye, lol.

[madduck]

thx SB, i think i get what you're saying about using regular hinges. trying to keep this as clean as i can i'd prefer, i think, to have the bearings in the bottom and top of the vertical tube. i was thinking of a sealed bearing with the hopes of keeping the swinging force minimal. i live in the desert so freezing isn't an issue, but dirt and sand are.

i didn't realize the pic i posted had the pivot in the dead center of the door until you mentioned that it'd be in the way. i agree, i dont like the pivot in the center, in my renditions i've got the pivot about 4/5ths to one side. that is why i was hoping to estimate the weight of the material on the 'long' side of the door, to try and add weight on the short side to balance the forces. the pic in this post is closer to what i'm going for.

i'll play with your idea though and see what i can come up with.
thanks for your suggestions

[Boostinjdm]

Do you live in a third world country?

What exactly are you hoping to gain with that style door over the typical design with hinges all the way to one side?

[mla2ofus]

Have you given thought to someday having to remove the door someday for any number of reasons?
Mike

[walker]

I build a lot of pivot doors. You can use a simple bottom pivot as shown. They are inexpensive, just use a plasma cutter or cut off wheel to make the slot in the bottom of the gate.

For the top you use a walking beam top pivot. I cut a hole for the pivot and plug weld a backer to catch the screw holes that way it it flush.

For the gate frame, just build it as one unit with the header full length across the top. Weld the side panel/door jamb to the header. Weld the side panel bottoms in. Then weld in the threshold, I generally use a piece of 1/2" hot rolled flat bar the same width as the jamb.

Then bolt your bottom pivot on, set the gate frame over it and tilt up, screw the walking beam so the pivot drops into the hole.

Easy peezy!

[BD1]

That could be a issue for medical personnel entering or moving stuff in and out. I suggest maybe a sliding one. Those are popular now.

[walker]

Forgot to attach the pics

The bottom pivot I use is similar to the upper left one in the bottom picture.

[madduck]

Do you live in a third world country?

What exactly are you hoping to gain with that style door over the typical design with hinges all the way to one side?

google pivot doors, check out the price of these things. the opening that you actually pass through can be the same size as a traditional door, this is just a different way of getting the door out of the way.

Have you given thought to someday having to remove the door someday for any number of reasons?
Mike

yes, that's part of the reason i'd like to build the door separate from the frame.

That could be a issue for medical personnel entering or moving stuff in and out. I suggest maybe a sliding one. Those are popular now.

yep, thought about that also. like i told boostin', the actual pass through size can be any size you want, it's just the hinge is in a different place and there is material on the other side of the hinge. this isn't something we're used to seeing.

when we were looking at doing a major remodel on our house we were going pretty hard industrial. it was searching industrial designs that i came across this style door and loved it. they are expensive! not in our budget but guess what is, a pivot door/gate that i'll try to cobble together. i've never seen a pivot design on a gate...yet. the first one i'll see hopefully will be in my front yard.

here are a couple more expanses of big, pivot doors. again, these things aint cheap.
thanks for joining in

[madduck]

I build a lot of pivot doors. You can use a simple bottom pivot as shown. They are inexpensive, just use a plasma cutter or cut off wheel to make the slot in the bottom of the gate.

For the top you use a walking beam top pivot. I cut a hole for the pivot and plug weld a backer to catch the screw holes that way it it flush.

For the gate frame, just build it as one unit with the header full length across the top. Weld the side panel/door jamb to the header. Weld the side panel bottoms in. Then weld in the threshold, I generally use a piece of 1/2" hot rolled flat bar the same width as the jamb.

Then bolt your bottom pivot on, set the gate frame over it and tilt up, screw the walking beam so the pivot drops into the hole.

Easy peezy!

ahhh...youre just up the road from me, i'm in south phx on the north side of south mountain.
thank you for the pics of the hinges, i never thought about using the type of hinges the doors use due to where the gate will be located. and i thought the weight of the gate would need something beefier than the hinge used for a door. but with the size of some of the doors i've seen, those things aint light.

do you build doors and gates?
i dont understand the "cut a hole for the pivot and plug weld a backer to catch the screw holes that way it is flush."
do you calculate, or guesstimate, the weight on the long side of the hinge and try to counter balance it on the short side?

thank you for your help

[frieed]

How about using 3/4" black pipe inserted from the top that runs the full length of the door and rests in a socket in the ground. Turn the entire door into one large hinge.

[SlowBlues]

I don't think balancing it weight wise will be a need or an issue, as even very heavy gates and doors are hung from the edge using lighter duty hinges every day with no problem. Whatever you decide to do I wouldn't want a bearing below the floor. Below grade will definitely get full of crud and probably full of water. I would also want to leave some kind of access/way to remove door/service pivot components. A small squeak can drive you crazy on a nice build, and a big squeak is just a big "don't be lazy and lube me already" slap in the face every time you hear you it i know, that's what she said. Also, bearings have a nice habit of failing when they're impossible to get to without destroying something

[tapwelder]

I think the way you have designed it, it is simply a traditional gate with a tail, since you have a post at the pivot. As suggested balance should not be an issue with the correct bearings and support...small trailer axle. I think an important part to consider point might be the top beam. Since much of its strength depends on the wall and side panels. Keep the pivot above ground and add a dust cap. Will you need a threshold for a gare?

You could build it with a just a bottom bearing. Or pivot from the bottom only.

Hmmm, now...I need to find a client to allow me to build one ...

[Fnord5]

Top bearing:

Bottom bearing

[walker]

ahhh...youre just up the road from me, i'm in south phx on the north side of south mountain.
thank you for the pics of the hinges, i never thought about using the type of hinges the doors use due to where the gate will be located. and i thought the weight of the gate would need something beefier than the hinge used for a door. but with the size of some of the doors i've seen, those things aint light.

do you build doors and gates?
i dont understand the "cut a hole for the pivot and plug weld a backer to catch the screw holes that way it is flush."
do you calculate, or guesstimate, the weight on the long side of the hinge and try to counter balance it on the short side?

thank you for your help

I have made some thousand pound doors. Those small pivots are good for 600 pounds or so. I buy them from CR Laurence over on Hadley and 51 ave, but you need a business licsence to buy there.

As far as mountng the top pivots, I cut a hole the same size as the pivot, so that it will fit into the hole. Then I make a plate to catch the ends and slip it nside the tube and plug weld it from the face. This creates a mortise so the pivot will sit flush with the tube. If you were to remove the latch portion of a door handle from a wood door you see the mortise that is an 1/8" deep that catches the screw ends, then the hole where the latch fits through. I am fabbing the same shape in the steel. I know I am not explaining it well, but cant think of how to say it differently.

[walker]

If you decide you want to use a bearing other than the pivot door, just pick up a front wheel bearing from a car or truck that uses unit bearings. There are usually 4 bolt holes, then the lug holes. Just make a plate to weld/bolt to the lug side and weld a tube to it. Then you just need a top pivot. This can be as simple as a hole in the top of the gate, then weld a piece of 1/2" pipethrough the tube and insert a piece of 1/2" round bar through the tube and into the gate. There is very little strain on the top pivot, so it doesnt take much.

[85burbanator]

I was trying to dig up pictures like you're too one. We see a few of those a year and the pivots arent super expensive I dont think. One is a glass doors that weights just over 200 pounds

[85burbanator]

Shoot, meant to quote Walker's post

[madduck]

thanks so much guys.

walker: i never would have thought those pivots are good for up to 600#. and at such a cheap cost those lil things are a bargain. i can order online, i'm not in a big rush to do this so mail order will work just fine. i think i understand now what your saying about how to mount the top pivot. i'm always up for a challenge so i'll give 'r a go and try to duplicate what youre describing. it prob wont be purdy, but it'll be my ugly baby.

i now understand that the forces on the pivot aren't nearly what i was anticipating. a wheel bearing is exactly what i was thinking for the bottom bearing originally. i still kind of like that idea for an industrial look. but i am leaning more towards walker's suggestion of using actual pivot bearing assemblies. on the top i never though of not needing a bearing assembly but am glad y'all pointed out that it merely needs to be a rotational point, not something requiring a complex assembly.

i was going to make a box frame out of 2x4 tubing and the rest of the fence from 2x2.
walker, i know you said you use 1/2" stock for the bottom of the frame, i like that idea better than messing with a 2x4 piece of tubing.
do yall think 2x2 for the entire build is ok? or should i stick with a 2x4 door frame?

thanks for everyone's input, i'm learning a lot. i cant wait to start this challenge.

[walker]

2x2 seems fine. I like working with .083 or thicker rather than .065. I prefer .120 wall for the sides the pivot points will be.

[SlowBlues]

Agree 2x2 14 gauge or thicker should be plenty strong for general structure, thicker .120 (1/8 or 10 gauge) for Pivot/bolt points. what material aside from the metal frame are you planning to make the door out of?