# Thread: Impact formula

1. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

In Willies scenario, the monkey is falling. It doesn't matter tho, the bullet falls. A 45 caliber falls at the same speed as a 22 caliber. The 22 travels farther because it's faster. They will still hit the ground at the same time with everything else being equal.

It's hard to grasp but aim above the monkey if he's sitting still.

2. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

Aim the barrel or the sights?? heh heh

Actually the bigger bullet falls slower due to wind resistance but yes all things being equal in physics will fall equal.

3. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

Originally Posted by Insaneride
Ok Sandy, say a sniper shoots a sitting bad monkey at 500 feet away using a 2000 fps round. It will take 1/4 second to reach the monkey, in that time, the bullet falls two feet, the sniper aims or adjusts for two feet above the monkey. Any questions?

Oh and the monkey is uphill at 20 30 or even fifty degrees above sniper, doesn't matter, bullet is drawn to earth by gravity at a rate of 32/second squared. I hope that helps because my work is done here.
Whatever caliber it is that is traveling 2000 fps will take about 1/4 of a second to get there but more than likely drop 10 to 12 inches. You would have to describe the exact cartridge to verify that.

Oh, BTW we do have calculations for gravity distance vs ground distance that we will continue to use in spite of your misinformation. It's often referred to as the true Ballistic Distance. Some sporting range finders even have that function built in.

Nothing falls at 32 feet per second untill the point of that 1st second has been reached and so-on. Everything in a free fall test starts a zero and builds up to the 32 ft per second per second. Remember it's called rate of acceleration. Like zero TO 60 in X seconds not 60mph for X seconds. Big diff. And yes you've done enough here.

4. WeldingWeb Craftsman
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## Re: Impact formula

Wow .... muzzle velocity is as fast as a bullet travels. There is no "second" before deceleration starts. As soon as the charge behind the bullet reaches the muzzle it decompresses and from that point on the bullet is slowing and falling. Those are two separate actions. Slowing is affected by the resistance that the bullet encounters due to frontal area as it travels (think flat front vs pointed front). Falling is affected by gravity. Also separate are notions of barrel alignment vs sight alignment. In a properly sighted rifle the sights (peep or scope) are not parallel to the barrel, they're actually sighted down (possibly even below the barrel path depending on distance) to compensate for .... yup .... gravity, and depending on the distance, possibly gravity PLUS some earth curvature (think naval guns). The physics is well tested. Believe it.

5. ## Re: Impact formula

The monkeys are eventually gonna start shooting back, , , , ,

6. ## Re: Impact formula

All those calculations fall short of answers for aluminum cutting through steel. Or lead cutting through steel or stainless steel. The answer is in the electrical effects, high-velocity objects create, the objects plasma through the materials they normally cannot cut through. That is an electrical effect.

It is like the bullet fired from a gun that can go through steel and cinder blocks, so they rate the kinetic energy high, but when you see a man standing on one foot wearing a vest, and he is shot with that same round, he is not moved at all. It makes me doubt the accuracy of the formula.

Also after firing the same lead rounds at a safe, and watching the difference in effects of different velocity rounds, I am sure that electricity plays a role in it. It goes from not scratching the paint, to denting the safe to then suddenly creating a perfectly plasma cut hole in the safe without denting the safe.

7. ## Re: Impact formula

Originally Posted by Insaneride
In Willies scenario, the monkey is falling. It doesn't matter tho, the bullet falls. A 45 caliber falls at the same speed as a 22 caliber. The 22 travels farther because it's faster. They will still hit the ground at the same time with everything else being equal.

It's hard to grasp but aim above the monkey if he's sitting still.
If a round is spinning it also has gyro forces that will resist movement from a straigh path. So the faster the round is spinning and moving the longer it will be in the air.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

8. WeldingWeb Craftsman
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## Re: Impact formula

Originally Posted by William McCormick
If a round is spinning it also has gyro forces that will resist movement from a straigh path. So the faster the round is spinning and moving the longer it will be in the air.

Sincerely,

William McCormick
Correct. No argument about the science or the results. The reason .... is because the gyroscopic effect of a spinning bullet is to resist forces that cause the bullet to change how it is positioned in the airstream (stability - reduced wobble) . It stays pointed ahead and being pointed ahead (pointy end forward) has less air resistance, resulting in slower speed decay due to friction, so it travels farther. The effect of gravity remains constant, so while the bullet travels forward it descends. The distance may be longer, but the time will be the same before it hits the ground. The difference between a round travelling fast and one travelling slow is that when the slow round (think muzzle loader round ball) hits the ground it isn't going to ricochet very far compared to say ... 22-250 which will ricochet and travel another huge distance before falling to ground again.
Last edited by John Bartley; 06-09-2019 at 11:15 AM.

9. WeldingWeb Craftsman
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## Re: Impact formula

BTW ... this is a fascinating discussion, and so far really civil which is super! William has introduced plasma to the discussion, and that's so appropriate because it is about as relevant to this forum as could possibly be and then combine that with the discussion about inertia and gravity and external forces. Don't stop now !! It's about to get really interesting.

Yes .... I am a geek ....

10. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

Originally Posted by Sandy
Whatever caliber it is that is traveling 2000 fps will take about 1/4 of a second to get there but more than likely drop 10 to 12 inches. You would have to describe the exact cartridge to verify that.

Oh, BTW we do have calculations for gravity distance vs ground distance that we will continue to use in spite of your misinformation. It's often referred to as the true Ballistic Distance. Some sporting range finders even have that function built in.

Nothing falls at 32 feet per second untill the point of that 1st second has been reached and so-on. Everything in a free fall test starts a zero and builds up to the 32 ft per second per second. Remember it's called rate of acceleration. Like zero TO 60 in X seconds not 60mph for X seconds. Big diff. And yes you've done enough here.

Yes, a round traveling at 2000fps with target at 500 ft will take 1/4 second. The gravity calculation that you disbelieve comes to 8.6". The cartridge type doesn't matter but for sake of argument, say a .22.

Everything falls at 32ft per second squared. Take a quarter second squared and you get 0.0625. 32feet multiplied times 0.062 equals 8.6". Where you get 10-12inches? Never mind, sounds like you pulled outta yer watchamacallit.

Some military rifle scopes use stadia or graduation marks to judge distance, they are usually graduated for a 6 foot Spetznaz soldier and some Bradley fighting vehicles have stadia for Soviet helicopters but I'm sure you will disbelieve

Your last paragraph sounds like you think you know something and almost got it rite. In one second an object or bullet will fall 32 feet. In 1/2 second, an object will only fall 8 feet. In a 1/4 second it falls 8.6". It has to do with velocity squared

Sandy, you can believe anything you like even if you are wrong because your going to anyway.

11. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

Originally Posted by William McCormick
If a round is spinning it also has gyro forces that will resist movement from a straigh path. So the faster the round is spinning and moving the longer it will be in the air.

Sincerely,

William McCormick
William McCormick, the gyro effect does have an effect on the bullet but gravity remains the same. You care to further explain

12. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

Originally Posted by John Bartley
Correct. No argument about the science or the results. The reason .... is because the gyroscopic effect of a spinning bullet is to resist forces that cause the bullet to change how it is positioned in the airstream (stability - reduced wobble) . It stays pointed ahead and being pointed ahead (pointy end forward) has less air resistance, resulting in slower speed decay due to friction, so it travels farther. The effect of gravity remains constant, so while the bullet travels forward it descends. The distance may be longer, but the time will be the same before it hits the ground. The difference between a round travelling fast and one travelling slow is that when the slow round (think muzzle loader round ball) hits the ground it isn't going to ricochet very far compared to say ... 22-250 which will ricochet and travel another huge distance before falling to ground again.

Well said Sir.

As to the gyro effect: gyro effect lightens the mass. This been proven using a heavy gyro that couldn't be lifted when stopped but easily lifted with one hand while spinning. Notice how a big heavy grinder seems not as heavy when spinning?
Last edited by Insaneride; 06-09-2019 at 11:35 AM.

13. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

I really haven't noticed my 9 inch grinder get any heavier when running.... sure you can feel gyroscopic forces in play when moving it about the axis of it's inertia wheel but heavier when lifting it up... nope.

14. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

ronsii, it may not be as easy to notice and I'm setting myself up now. Give me a moment to find evidence for you.

15. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

LOL, well we've gone from shooting falling monkeys to anti-gravity grinders... next stop shooting a monkey with an organ grinder

16. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

It's called gyroscopic recession. It's a force that makes the grinder seem lighter when running. There's videos on YouTube that prove and explain how this force works. It doesn't lighten mass but the Force does make it seem lighter and allow the bullet to travel farther as mentioned. ronsii, are you trying to suck me in?

17. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

Ok Sandy, say a sniper shoots a sitting bad monkey at 500 feet away using a 2000 fps round. It will take 1/4 second to reach the monkey, in that time, the bullet falls two feet, the sniper aims or adjusts for two feet above the monkey. Any questions?
Yes, a round traveling at 2000fps with target at 500 ft will take 1/4 second. The gravity calculation that you disbelieve comes to 8.6". The cartridge type doesn't matter but for sake of argument, say a .22.

Oh BTW there can be quite a difference between a cartridge and caliber. .22 is a caliber, .223 Rem is a cartridge. Big difference between a 22 short and a 5.56 Nato trajectory.

Yeh I know, 'no huh'..

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## Re: Impact formula

19. WeldingWeb Craftsman
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## Re: Impact formula

Originally Posted by Sandy

Oh BTW there can be quite a difference between a cartridge and caliber. .22 is a caliber, .223 Rem is a cartridge. Big difference between a 22 short and a 5.56 Nato trajectory.

Yeh I know, 'no huh'..

And fired on the same trajectory at the same elevation, they will both hit the ground for the first time at the same time ..... but not at the same place.

20. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

Originally Posted by farmersammm
LOL, I think someone is playing me like a monkey...

21. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

Up on the roof today, trying to get a new roof going in the heat .. Dropped an old phillips bit and a paper towel off the edge with the same hand--------shattunk the bit hit in the trash in the trailer, the paper towel drifted off into the yard. Dern paper towel didn't read the physics book .. Taking a nap now, that experiment exhausted me.

22. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

Ok, please excuse my mistakes. Looking at ballistic statistics, and from goooogle physics:

A bullet will fall 16 feet in one second^2. All my math was twice times off. Willies monkey would only fall 4.3" in 0.150 seconds at 300 feet and 2000fps. My calc

Something about " per second per second versus per second squared", I don't know but text books show 32ft/second^2.
Reality saiz 16 feet in one second. Ballistic calcs prove this and aim above the monkey unless he's falling at the exact moment bullet is fired

23. WeldingWeb Craftsman
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## Re: Impact formula

Originally Posted by Insaneride
aim above the monkey unless he's falling at the exact moment bullet is fired
I'm not going back to see who wrote it .... but .... whoever said you have to lead the monkey is correct. All your rifle sights do is compensate for the effect of gravity on a projectile. They won't compensate for movement by the target. You gotta do that yourself by leading.

24. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

John Bartley:

Willies falling monkey added a new dynamic to an old exercise that you seem to be familiar with. It made some of us think and I thank Willie for that.

A horizontal fast moving vector you should lead or Kentucky windage. No time to dial in windage.

Don't lead a falling monkey, but lead a fast moving target. Monkeys aren't that fast and gravity isn't either at a short distance.

25. Master Welder
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## Re: Impact formula

John Bartley, Willies monkey is a trick question, please go back and read it. The bullet falls at the same speed as monkey.

Aim for monkey , bullet and monkey fall at same speed. Provided Kentucky windage is correct for elevation known.

Otherwise. Aim above monkey. Kentucky windage , no?

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