Battle of the TIG Welders: Invertig 221 vs. PowerTIG 255EXT

[Kelvin]

I appreciate your comments, Kelvin.

The challenge with stating that "A hobbyist doesn't need..." is that it's a monolithic/absolute definition, and there is no such thing in this context. As a hobbyist, myself, I can no more define what hobbyists need, than the next person. There are too many variables, and people don't always buy what is most prudent or rational. You know this. That said, I get where you are coming from.

My point was that a hobbyist (at least the way I define "hobbyist") is probably going to use a tig welder a few hours a week if not a few hours a year. That's barely enough time to even try all the various permutations and combinations of eleventy bajillion different variables, let alone understand what they do, and how best to use them. If you're a tig beginner (as your original post suggests), chances are, you're going to find a couple of "sweet spots" that work for what you're trying to do, and will likely return to them again and again without changing a million variables with steadily worsening results. On the other hand, the parameters that give you a "sweet spot" are probably exceedingly easy to find on a welder with fewer knobs, menus, submenus, parameters, programs, routines, daughterboards, and wiring spaghetti on the inside. In other words, for a beginner, a machine with "too many" variables may lead to more frustration than a simpler machine that makes up for its "lack" of knobs, menus, submenus, parameters, programs, routines, daughterboards, and wiring spaghetti on the inside – with bulletproof reliability and simplicity.

Lots of pro welders somehow "get by" with far, far simpler machines and get superb results. You've already said that you understand that all the gadgets and adjustments won't turn a mediocre weldor into an expert weldor. And we've already established that plenty of expert weldors produce outstanding work with stone age machines ... so, what are you trying to achieve?

Maybe it would be wise to try a few different tig machines first, to see what all the fuss is about with all the knobs, etc., before spending the money. You might be surprised.

[Jawslandshark]

Those are all very helpful comments, Jaws. Which ESAB machine is your go-to?

I am not at all surprised about the similarity of results.

HELIARC 281i, nice build qaulity inside, lots of fans to keep it cool. Very soft smooth arc that I love for aluminum, it has the transformer feel. I think STEL did a great job on this unit based on the ESAB specs, even if they were pricey.

[Oscar]

Just get the 221. Simple as that.

[CRCFX]

I appreciate your views and suggestions, Kelvin. Thank you.

[CRCFX]

Just get the 221. Simple as that.

I'm surprised, Oscar.

Is it light on the duty cycle specs? Seems that way....

[Oscar]

That, or it's under-rated, or everything else is over-rated. You pick. at 77°F, duty cycle should be at least 30% @ 220A, but I betcha it will still out-perform that. I've never needed it to perform that high for that long, but I have faith it can out do it own spec. A Pro Pulse 200 was tested at full-bore 200A by a YouTube'er (42 Fab), and it took about 8min (inside a shop) to get it to over-temp. That's on a machine with a duty cycle rated for 25% @ 200A. Granted the average is likely just slightly lower due to small variations in CTWD that the machine won't take into account, but still none the less it's impressive.

Fast-forward to 7min40sec. Not saying this the case with every HTP machine, but I have a hunch you'd get your money's worth and then some.

[tracymobilecnc]

That, or it's under-rated, or everything else is over-rated. You pick. at 77°F, duty cycle should be at least 30% @ 220A, but I betcha it will still out-perform that. I've never needed it to perform that high for that long, but I have faith it can out do it own spec. A Pro Pulse 200 was tested at full-bore 200A by a YouTube'er (42 Fab), and it took about 8min (inside a shop) to get it to over-temp. That's on a machine with a duty cycle rated for 25% @ 200A. Granted the average is likely just slightly lower due to small variations in CTWD that the machine won't take into account, but still none the less it's impressive.

Fast-forward to 7min40sec. Not saying this the case with every HTP machine, but I have a hunch you'd get your money's worth and then some.

i have a pp200 and it may take 8 min to reach duty cycle from dead cold, but i would say it rating is right on when being used all day.

[G-ManBart]

I haven't used an ESAB to compare, but I started out my TIG experience with an Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT and I still really like it after three years. I found it very easy to set up and start welding with zero prior experience other than watching YouTube videos and talking to a couple of friends. I upgraded to the SSC pedal and think it's worth every penny. I like how easy it is to quickly scroll through the functions with nothing more than the push of a button and then use the dial to change the setting. I appreciate having more than enough memory spots for different setting combinations, and I also like that it holds your last settings so if you want to take a break and shut down for a while you don't have to do anything other than flip the power switch to be back where you were last running.

I don't see how anybody would remotely struggle to set up and run any of the similar Everlast EXT models even though they have a lot of bells and whistles...most you can just ignore if you want to.

I have never run into the duty cycle, but have started to do some larger work where I'm running the amps near the top end so I sometimes wish I had gone with one of the larger EXT models, but that's not a complaint...just sort of the way things have developed.

Not long ago I got a deal on a minty Lincoln SquareWave TIG 175 and while it was a great machine, I didn't like it nearly as much as the Everlast, so I sold it. It wasn't anything major, but I found it annoying not having adjustable pre and post-flow, and the HF start wasn't as reliable/robust (yes, I checked the point gap and blew them out with compressed air). It also didn't seem to weld as hot for the same given amps (probably transformer versus inverter difference). In short, it really made me appreciate the Everlast and how well it works for me.

With all of that said, I just got a smoking deal ($775!) on a Miller Syncrowave 250DX TigRunner that I'll pick up in a few days...so we'll see if that changes my mind on the Everlast at all.

[CRCFX]

I haven't used an ESAB to compare, but I started out my TIG experience with an Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT and I still really like it after three years. I found it very easy to set up and start welding with zero prior experience other than watching YouTube videos and talking to a couple of friends. I upgraded to the SSC pedal and think it's worth every penny. I like how easy it is to quickly scroll through the functions with nothing more than the push of a button and then use the dial to change the setting. I appreciate having more than enough memory spots for different setting combinations, and I also like that it holds your last settings so if you want to take a break and shut down for a while you don't have to do anything other than flip the power switch to be back where you were last running.

I don't see how anybody would remotely struggle to set up and run any of the similar Everlast EXT models even though they have a lot of bells and whistles...most you can just ignore if you want to.

I have never run into the duty cycle, but have started to do some larger work where I'm running the amps near the top end so I sometimes wish I had gone with one of the larger EXT models, but that's not a complaint...just sort of the way things have developed.

Not long ago I got a deal on a minty Lincoln SquareWave TIG 175 and while it was a great machine, I didn't like it nearly as much as the Everlast, so I sold it. It wasn't anything major, but I found it annoying not having adjustable pre and post-flow, and the HF start wasn't as reliable/robust (yes, I checked the point gap and blew them out with compressed air). It also didn't seem to weld as hot for the same given amps (probably transformer versus inverter difference). In short, it really made me appreciate the Everlast and how well it works for me.

With all of that said, I just got a smoking deal ($775!) on a Miller Syncrowave 250DX TigRunner that I'll pick up in a few days...so we'll see if that changes my mind on the Everlast at all.

Thank you for your comments, G-ManBart. Good feedback on the Everlast machines. Your comment about ignoring some settings, seems like that is how it should work. Good to know.

That sounds like a steal on the Syncrowave. Good luck! Post pics.

[precivilization]

With all of that said, I just got a smoking deal ($775!) on a Miller Syncrowave 250DX TigRunner that I'll pick up in a few days...so we'll see if that changes my mind on the Everlast at all.

But that's another transformer-mind you a highly advanced one-so if you didn't like the 175, chances are..



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[G-ManBart]

But that's another transformer-mind you a highly advanced one-so if you didn't like the 175, chances are..

I figured at that price it was worth a shot! It seems to have all of the features I was missing on the Lincoln and enough amps that I can crank it up enough to offset any transformer/inverter differences. I really didn't dislike the Lincoln, just didn't like it enough to keep it.

I'm keeping my eye out of demo days to try other brands like ESAB as well....if nothing else it's fun!

[Munkul]

The Lincoln Squarewave machines are very, very cheaply made. I'm not surprised the Everlast was nicer to use.

The Syncrowave sits a long, long way above the SW in the pecking order.

[shovelon]

I haven't used an ESAB to compare, but I started out my TIG experience with an Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT and I still really like it after three years. I found it very easy to set up and start welding with zero prior experience other than watching YouTube videos and talking to a couple of friends. I upgraded to the SSC pedal and think it's worth every penny. I like how easy it is to quickly scroll through the functions with nothing more than the push of a button and then use the dial to change the setting. I appreciate having more than enough memory spots for different setting combinations, and I also like that it holds your last settings so if you want to take a break and shut down for a while you don't have to do anything other than flip the power switch to be back where you were last running.

I don't see how anybody would remotely struggle to set up and run any of the similar Everlast EXT models even though they have a lot of bells and whistles...most you can just ignore if you want to.

I have never run into the duty cycle, but have started to do some larger work where I'm running the amps near the top end so I sometimes wish I had gone with one of the larger EXT models, but that's not a complaint...just sort of the way things have developed.

Not long ago I got a deal on a minty Lincoln SquareWave TIG 175 and while it was a great machine, I didn't like it nearly as much as the Everlast, so I sold it. It wasn't anything major, but I found it annoying not having adjustable pre and post-flow, and the HF start wasn't as reliable/robust (yes, I checked the point gap and blew them out with compressed air). It also didn't seem to weld as hot for the same given amps (probably transformer versus inverter difference). In short, it really made me appreciate the Everlast and how well it works for me.

With all of that said, I just got a smoking deal ($775!) on a Miller Syncrowave 250DX TigRunner that I'll pick up in a few days...so we'll see if that changes my mind on the Everlast at all.

I would take that Sync 250 Tigrunner over the everlast any day. They are workhorses provided you have the power to feed them.

[Kelvin]

I would take that Sync 250 Tigrunner over the everlast any day. They are workhorses provided you have the power to feed them.

x10

At $775 apiece, I'd buy every one I could find.

[paul. m]

Here is a first hand account for you , i used the miller 330a/bp every day for almost 7 years never a hiccup ! 35 + years old still works like a charm ! Like kelvin said a hobbyist welder is never going to realize the difference with all the little DO DADS they put on welders these day,s anyway . The only place most of that stuff comes into play is on things you will rarely if ever use such as super thin alum , or alloys . BTW that miller has welded everything from beer cans to 3/4 alum bar stock all day long ! 465 amps baby ! ! !

[lugweld]

I would take that Sync 250 Tigrunner over the everlast any day. They are workhorses provided you have the power to feed them.

How many Everlasts have you personally owned to qualify you to make that statement? How much time have you spent on one to be knowledgeable about it?

[lugweld]

That, or it's under-rated, or everything else is over-rated. You pick. at 77°F, duty cycle should be at least 30% @ 220A, but I betcha it will still out-perform that. I've never needed it to perform that high for that long, but I have faith it can out do it own spec. A Pro Pulse 200 was tested at full-bore 200A by a YouTube'er (42 Fab), and it took about 8min (inside a shop) to get it to over-temp. That's on a machine with a duty cycle rated for 25% @ 200A. Granted the average is likely just slightly lower due to small variations in CTWD that the machine won't take into account, but still none the less it's impressive.

Fast-forward to 7min40sec. Not saying this the case with every HTP machine, but I have a hunch you'd get your money's worth and then some.

Duty cycles are rated at 104 degrees. Not 77. If they rate at 77, that's not even close to a average or even real world temperature in a shop in the south during the summer. Today, for instance it topped 94 degrees in the shade where I am. Sure it will take 8 minutes at 77 degrees for a machine to reach duty cycle. But if they are ETL tested, all machines meet the duty cycle requirements they state because they test this fully.

[Oscar]

Duty cycles are rated at 104 degrees. Not 77. If they rate at 77, that's not even close to a average or even real world temperature in a shop in the south during the summer. Today, for instance it topped 94 degrees in the shade where I am. Sure it will take 8 minutes at 77 degrees for a machine to reach duty cycle. But if they are ETL tested, all machines meet the duty cycle requirements they state because they test this fully.

I agree with you on all points. Somehow I have a hunch that CRCFX isn't going to be putting his machine in a shop in the south. So while your points are valid in general, I would say they might not necessarily be applicable to his specific case. Let's find out; let's ask the OP. CRCFX: what is the average temperature your welder would be exposed to in this endeavor during the vast majority of its use?

[CRCFX]

Here is a first hand account for you , i used the miller 330a/bp every day for almost 7 years never a hiccup ! 35 + years old still works like a charm ! Like kelvin said a hobbyist welder is never going to realize the difference with all the little DO DADS they put on welders these day,s anyway . The only place most of that stuff comes into play is on things you will rarely if ever use such as super thin alum , or alloys . BTW that miller has welded everything from beer cans to 3/4 alum bar stock all day long ! 465 amps baby ! ! !

Thank you for your comments, Paul.m.

I'm not surprised at all with the longevity you've gotten out of that machine. It is however a simple machine, built in a day when many things were often over-built or over-engineered. With respect to the "do dads," it's similar to my response to Kelvin: it may matter to some hobbyists, but not to all of them.

Plenty of hobbyists can afford to buy any machine that they want, so what is the likelihood that they will buy a bare bones machine? Given that most hobbyists like to experiment, you have another reason why some/many won't all buy bare bones, or what professionals deem to be a spec that represents all that they need.

All that said, it is appreciated by me and I'm sure by most others, to hear the 'simple is better' perspective on advanced features.

[Oscar]

Plenty of hobbyists can afford to buy any machine that they want, so what is the likelihood that they will buy a bare bones machine? Given that most hobbyists like to experiment, you have another reason why some/many won't all buy bare bones, or what professionals deem to be a spec that represents all that they need.

Agree completely. The way I see it is like this: even if your a hobbyist, you of course might not need all the bells and whistles 99% of the time. But similar to the situation of "if you buy too small of a machine, you can't dial it up, but if you buy a machine that is overkill, you can always dial it down". Well I see advanced features the same way: if you have them, you don't have to use them and can turn them off and "dial it down", but if you didn't buy them in the first place, you can't dial in what you don't have.

[Kelvin]

Agree completely. The way I see it is like this: even if your a hobbyist, you of course might not need all the bells and whistles 99% of the time. But similar to the situation of "if you buy too small of a machine, you can't dial it up, but if you buy a machine that is overkill, you can always dial it down". Well I see advanced features the same way: if you have them, you don't have to use them and can turn them off and "dial it down", but if you didn't buy them in the first place, you can't dial in what you don't have.

Given the choice between a welder whose amperage I can turn down and a welder whose zillions of features I will never use (or use once to experiment), I'll always choose the horsepower over the cup holders. Horsepower will allow you to do things that cupholders never will. And 20% DC at 220A is gonna be a limiting factor if one plans to do much aluminum, no matter how many waveforms, frequencies, pulse parameters and surround sound profiles one has. But to each their own.

[Munkul]

2 cents to add:

Real world duty cycle is often very different to stated DC. Some high end european manufacturers deliberately understate their DC, whatever the rating. This is where brand reputation comes into play a bit more - ie. I'd accept a 20%DC machine from EWM/Lorch much more readily than I would from a chinese manufacturer, because I already know it will run full power for as long as I'll ever need it to.

having said that - if people can independently verify that the Everlast duty cycle is as good or better than stated, then fair play! It takes a lot of guts for a welder to work well in 40degC heat, and presumably like all responsible manufacturers, they do test these things before stating them... and quite surprised that HTP don't rate at 30 or 40 degC like everyone else in the industry.

Of course, over here we rarely run into DC problems anyway, since most of our machines are 240v and ambient temps are rarely above 30degC, ever. usually around 20deg in the summer.

[precivilization]

2 cents to add:

Real world duty cycle is often very different to stated DC. Some high end european manufacturers deliberately understate their DC, whatever the rating. This is where brand reputation comes into play a bit more - ie. I'd accept a 20%DC machine from EWM/Lorch much more readily than I would from a chinese manufacturer, because I already know it will run full power for as long as I'll ever need it to.

having said that - if people can independently verify that the Everlast duty cycle is as good or better than stated, then fair play! It takes a lot of guts for a welder to work well in 40degC heat, and presumably like all responsible manufacturers, they do test these things before stating them... and quite surprised that HTP don't rate at 30 or 40 degC like everyone else in the industry.

Of course, over here we rarely run into DC problems anyway, since most of our machines are 240v and ambient temps are rarely above 30degC, ever. usually around 20deg in the summer.

From all my reading I haven't found anyone complaining about Everlast's duty cycle (not to say there isn't any), maybe other things but not DC, on paper, their advertised DC is pretty impressive, better than Miller's. Any experience with Everlast's equivalent R-tech in the UK?

HTP does rate DC in 40 degrees as well as 25.

[Kelvin]

2 cents to add:

Real world duty cycle is often very different to stated DC. Some high end european manufacturers deliberately understate their DC, whatever the rating. This is where brand reputation comes into play a bit more - ie. I'd accept a 20%DC machine from EWM/Lorch much more readily than I would from a chinese manufacturer, because I already know it will run full power for as long as I'll ever need it to.

having said that - if people can independently verify that the Everlast duty cycle is as good or better than stated, then fair play! It takes a lot of guts for a welder to work well in 40degC heat, and presumably like all responsible manufacturers, they do test these things before stating them... and quite surprised that HTP don't rate at 30 or 40 degC like everyone else in the industry.

Of course, over here we rarely run into DC problems anyway, since most of our machines are 240v and ambient temps are rarely above 30degC, ever. usually around 20deg in the summer.

Another issue on DC ratings is that many mfgrs specify them at different arc voltages. A 20% duty cycle at 40V is double a 20% duty cycle at 20V for a given amperage.

Unfortunately there seems to be no standardization that I can see on this.

[precivilization]

Agree completely. The way I see it is like this: even if your a hobbyist, you of course might not need all the bells and whistles 99% of the time. But similar to the situation of "if you buy too small of a machine, you can't dial it up, but if you buy a machine that is overkill, you can always dial it down". Well I see advanced features the same way: if you have them, you don't have to use them and can turn them off and "dial it down", but if you didn't buy them in the first place, you can't dial in what you don't have.

That was pretty much my thinking when I bought my TIG welder. 3 years down the road and I haven't even used 50% of its capabilities. I would've been fine with just a DC machine around maybe 200 amps @ 20% duty cycle. Maybe in the future I will. I am sure there are other hobbiests who used/use their machine either to its full potential or close to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk