Battle of the TIG Welders: Invertig 221 vs. PowerTIG 255EXT

[CrookedRoads]

I understand that companies like Miller and Lincoln are facing some stiff competition from all these cheaper imports but when you call a machine a 280 when it only has a 25% duty cycle your going down the same road as the guys that started shrinking the size of food containers so that people wouldn't notice they were getting less product. I have owned plenty of fine Miller and Lincoln machines over the years but I just don't feel that you're getting what you think you are for your money these days on many of their machines. On some of these machines when you step up to the next model all your really getting for the additional cost is a bigger number on the side of the unit and some smoke and mirrors on the spec sheet.

[G-ManBart]

From all my reading I haven't found anyone complaining about Everlast's duty cycle (not to say there isn't any), maybe other things but not DC, on paper, their advertised DC is pretty impressive, better than Miller's. Any experience with Everlast's equivalent R-tech in the UK?

HTP does rate DC in 40 degrees as well as 25.

My 210EXT is rated: @240V: 210A/18.4V @ 60% Duty Cycle/ 40° C

I've been making blacksmithing tools lately and running the amperage pretty high....175-200 regularly. I'm often welding a pice of 1" solid steel to 3/4" round, or 1.5" round, or 3/8 x 3" sections so I have to multi-pass. I only have air-cooled torches for it, and the torch is really the limitation at this point, not the duty cycle. Even with a water-cooled torch it would take a lot to get to the duty cycle from what I'm seeing. I haven't set a timer, and I'm welding in a climate-controlled shop that's nowhere near 40*C, but I'm pretty sure I've gone well over 60% at the amperages above, so I don't doubt the stated duty cycle at all.

[Oscar]

and quite surprised that HTP don't rate at 30 or 40 degC like everyone else in the industry.

They do rate DC @ 40°C. They also provide their own Duty Cycle at a different temperature (25°C) because it's a good part of what you mentioned yourself: real-world duty cycle. It's just another piece of information to have that might be useful to someone who is in a not-so-harsh shop environment.

This is from the HTP website on the Pro Pulse 300:




Homework is very important.

[lugweld]

Another issue on DC ratings is that many mfgrs specify them at different arc voltages. A 20% duty cycle at 40V is double a 20% duty cycle at 20V for a given amperage.

Unfortunately there seems to be no standardization that I can see on this.

Actually there is and it is pretty standard. It is specified at the operating range/curve. This is largely controlled and tested by ETL, UL, CSA or some other independent, equivalent agency that tests it for conformity. The thing that isn't standard is where companies decide to state a duty cycle. It doesn't have to be at full bore. It can be well less than the maximum amperage/output. If a unit is capable of putting out 40V, then it should be stated at the full output, but then the amperage output is going to be higher as well. So, you don't have a 140 amp machine putting out 40 arc volts.

[lugweld]

2 cents to add:

Real world duty cycle is often very different to stated DC. Some high end european manufacturers deliberately understate their DC, whatever the rating. This is where brand reputation comes into play a bit more - ie. I'd accept a 20%DC machine from EWM/Lorch much more readily than I would from a chinese manufacturer, because I already know it will run full power for as long as I'll ever need it to.

having said that - if people can independently verify that the Everlast duty cycle is as good or better than stated, then fair play! It takes a lot of guts for a welder to work well in 40degC heat, and presumably like all responsible manufacturers, they do test these things before stating them... and quite surprised that HTP don't rate at 30 or 40 degC like everyone else in the industry.

Of course, over here we rarely run into DC problems anyway, since most of our machines are 240v and ambient temps are rarely above 30degC, ever. usually around 20deg in the summer.

People have over and over, even posting videos side by side. The issue is that most people don't understand that independent companies like UL, CSA and ETL that do product testing and verification test this and verify any claims made by the manufacturer. If you are in Europe, you don't have that same kind of independent rigorous testing that I know of. There are some standards, but not strictly or independently verified as much.

[Kelvin]

...The thing that isn't standard is where companies decide to state a duty cycle. It doesn't have to be at full bore. It can be well less than the maximum amperage/output.

But...if you know the DC for a particular amperage, and you know the maximum amperage, can't you then calculate the DC at the max amperage?

I've seen and used the formula for this...

[CRCFX]

I agree with you on all points. Somehow I have a hunch that CRCFX isn't going to be putting his machine in a shop in the south. So while your points are valid in general, I would say they might not necessarily be applicable to his specific case. Let's find out; let's ask the OP. CRCFX: what is the average temperature your welder would be exposed to in this endeavor during the vast majority of its use?

Average temp is apparently a high of 67º and a low of 50º. I'm a fan of winter weather, so more of this type of work is in the winter months. Hope that helps, Oscar.

[CRCFX]

I will say this for HTP: excellent customer relationship skills. Everlast...not so much.

How does one get a fair comparison on duty cycles with these machines, given what is going on above? I could certainly ignore the advanced features and look at duty cycles as one way of moving towards a decision. Customer relationship skills maters, too.

[Oscar]

Average temp is apparently a high of 67º and a low of 50º. I'm a fan of winter weather, so more of this type of work is in the winter months. Hope that helps, Oscar.

It helps a lot. Given your actual real-word temperature figures, I'd say you have plenty of duty cycle available if you had the 221. I don't have a way of getting my garage down to anything other than ambient temperature, if not I would test it out for you. The low's around here are in the high 70's in the middle of the night like around 3am, lol.

[lugweld]

But...if you know the DC for a particular amperage, and you know the maximum amperage, can't you then calculate the DC at the max amperage?

I've seen and used the formula for this...

Duty cycles are not always predictable. Duty cycles are complex and not always linear.

[Oscar]

Duty cycles are not always predictable. Duty cycles are complex and not always linear.

Correct, the current-dependet duty cycle equations posted above are not linear. They are in fact quadratic as evidenced by the ² symbol.

[lugweld]

I understand, but there are points in real testing that duty cycle does not behave as predicted by a formula. The best guess is simply what it is until it is tested.

[shovelon]

How many Everlasts have you personally owned to qualify you to make that statement? How much time have you spent on one to be knowledgeable about it?

Only killed one at a Weld-O-Rama. You know, the one you sent to Jonathan. Ended up finishing the demonstration with my Miller Dynasty. Same input voltage, same circuit.

[Munkul]

They do rate DC @ 40°C. They also provide their own Duty Cycle at a different temperature (25°C) because it's a good part of what you mentioned yourself: real-world duty cycle. It's just another piece of information to have that might be useful to someone who is in a not-so-harsh shop environment.
Homework is very important.

Fair enough... but what about the Invertig 221? The website doesn't state the temperature for the DC.... having done my homework

The issue is that most people don't understand that independent companies like UL, CSA and ETL that do product testing and verification test this and verify any claims made by the manufacturer. If you are in Europe, you don't have that same kind of independent rigorous testing that I know of. There are some standards, but not strictly or independently verified as much.

erm... heard of ISO, EN standards and IEC? There's a reason that European welders have a very good reputation... Although it's not strictly down to "standards" either, it's down to individual companies pride in engineering.

[Oscar]

Fair enough... but what about the Invertig 221? The website doesn't state the temperature for the DC.... having done my homework

.

Quite correct, it doesn't actually state 40°C. Given the fact that they do rate their other machines at 40°C, I would have to say I'm confident the rated 20% DC @ 220A is also under those conditions. In fact, I would bet money that it could go longer even after the initial heat build-up in the machine. Any wagers?

[Munkul]

yeah, to be fair I'd agree with you, given their rep for a very decent machine, I'd guess it'll be 40deg rather than 25 as well It was the comment on the other page that made me think possibly all their DCs were rated at 25 deg.

[lugweld]

Only killed one at a Weld-O-Rama. You know, the one you sent to Jonathan. Ended up finishing the demonstration with my Miller Dynasty. Same input voltage, same circuit.

What was that a decade ago? Nothing is even close to the same anymore.

[shovelon]

What was that a decade ago?

Seven years ago.

Nothing is even close to the same anymore.

Got it. You are still there I see.

[CRCFX]

Need some help pushing this along...

All of the above input is appreciated. In my view, we have price, reliability/service/parts, advanced features, accessories, duty cycles, and other specs. The price part is easy to figure out. The reliability/service/parts piece is a never-ending argument, but I think I've read enough to have an understanding of where they each stand. Lots has been said about advanced features, so no need to debate that, and the spec sheets can answer those questions. Accessories seems pretty straighforward. There doesn't seem to be a clear answer (at least from what I have read, here) on duty cycles. As for the rest of the specs, things like output range, I can't see as a strong case has been made either way for one machine over the other.

Other thoughts?

[Oscar]

Other thoughts?

Find even just one single negative commentary about the Invertig 221 or HTP customer service anywhere on the internet. Now do the same for Everlast.

[CRCFX]

Thanks, Oscar. I have seen previous posts of yours, so I am aware.

[lugweld]

Go here and ask about our duty cycles. https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ever...target&fref=nf
Get real info from real people who use them day in and day out against other machines. You'll get a lot of nay sayers on here with no experience with the product. Ask people who use them...not heard this or that, or had a one time experience with some body else's machine.

But I hate to bring this guy back up, but he did a side by side, but not so scientific test of our units along with a razor weld on duty cycles at max output for 10 minutes. I did not like this guy, even though he did some videos for us, but watch the content not the man.

[Munkul]

Find even just one single negative commentary about the Invertig 221 or HTP customer service anywhere on the internet.

Well, I've seen a couple of comments about the Stel versions being clunky, very noisy and outdated

In fairness this was comparing to top-of-the-line EWM and Lorch machines.

Every machine has it's positives and negatives, though. For a given machine brand or model, you can always find SOMEONE who doesn't like it for some reason or another.

CRCFX, stop sitting on the fence, and just buy a machine

[CRCFX]

Go here and ask about our duty cycles. https://www.facebook.com/groups/Ever...target&fref=nf
Get real info from real people who use them day in and day out against other machines. You'll get a lot of nay sayers on here with no experience with the product. Ask people who use them...not heard this or that, or had a one time experience with some body else's machine.

But I hate to bring this guy back up, but he did a side by side, but not so scientific test of our units along with a razor weld on duty cycles at max output for 10 minutes. I did not like this guy, even though he did some videos for us, but watch the content not the man.

Thank you, lugweld.

[CRCFX]

Well, I've seen a couple of comments about the Stel versions being clunky, very noisy and outdated

In fairness this was comparing to top-of-the-line EWM and Lorch machines.

Every machine has it's positives and negatives, though. For a given machine brand or model, you can always find SOMEONE who doesn't like it for some reason or another.

CRCFX, stop sitting on the fence, and just buy a machine

I agree with your point about positives and negatives. Very true. Right...sitting on the fence for sure...