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Thread: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

  1. #1
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    Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    First welder: Lincoln 110v wire feed. Used it for years and learned a lot. Haven't used it for years now though.

    Current welder: Invertec 350 advanced process.

    New accessory: LN25 wire feed. (Finally have an indoor area to give gas a try)

    What wire and what gas? Thinking of digging out the old 110v machine and setting it up for sheet metal. Want to setup the LN25 as either GMAW or .045 Dual Shield.

    How would you setup so you could weld steel from thin to thick?

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Define thin and thick? 1/4" and over Dual-Shield would probably be the best choice but more smoke and have to clean slag. Slag usually comes off easy though. Probably go through contact tips and nozzles faster with Dual-Shield.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Define thin and thick?
    55 gallon drums and heavy equipment.

    I have been currently stick welding and want to go to wire inside. Most welding is farm and ranch stuff. Cattleguards, fencing, pole barns, trailer and tractor repair, etc.

    I'd like a setup that would cover most weldments. Maybe a 300 amp mig gun with .045 dual shield and .035 solid. Could I use the same gas? The invertec has pulse modes. Do I go with 2 tanks: 1 co2; and 1 c10 or c8? Maybe .023 in the 110v machine.

    Maybe better off staying with .023 in 110v, .035 solid in LN25, and 7018 for the big stuff?

    I have no experience welding with gas and that's why I ask. Always used flux core in the 110v box 20 years ago.

    I'm in need of a mig gun, gas tanks, and wire. So what would y'all buy?

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    If you use Argon-CO2 with less than 20% CO2, you run a VERY high risk of worm tracks/chicken scratches with dual shield. Don't do it. So long as your dual-shield FCAW-G wire is E71T-1M/1C, you can simply use C25 for it, and regular solid-wire GMAW. If you want to use pulsed-spray or spray, then you must have a 2nd tank of C10 or C8.
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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    If you use Argon-CO2 with less than 20% CO2, you run a VERY high risk of worm tracks/chicken scratches with dual shield. Don't do it. So long as your dual-shield FCAW-G wire is E71T-1M/1C, you can simply use C25 for it, and regular solid-wire GMAW. If you want to use pulsed-spray or spray, then you must have a 2nd tank of C10 or C8.
    Sounds like C25 is the best choice of gas to get started. I can use it for Dual shield and GMAW on the big and little machine. If I add a tank latter with more argon I can start spraying.

    What wire? What gun?

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    For the gun, One that fits the machine and can handle the amps you wanna run. Lots of choices for wire. Are you buying local?
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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Trying to buy local. Local means 30 minute drive to nearest town. Went there today to ask around. They don't have straight co2 and any mix other than c25 has to be ordered. Didn't have a 300 amp gun either. Or drive rollers for LN25. Or any .045 dual shield.

    Small town problems.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Is 300 amp gun adequate for .045 dual shield? Reading around here, it sounds like a hot wire.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbarasing View Post
    Is 300 amp gun adequate for .045 dual shield? Reading around here, it sounds like a hot wire.
    Yea, the sweet spot for 045 FCAW-G is about 200-280A, give or take. Do you have an Argon tank for TIG already? If so, you can mix Argon with C25 to create an argon-rich mixture for pulsed-spray or regular axial spray-transfer. So with only two tanks (Ar and C25) you can TIG and MIG solid wire, FCAW-G, and pulse/spray solid wire. I can even make you a Frankenmixer for you.
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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    I do mobile welding. On everything "from thin to thick". I generally carry three suitcases with me. Two Ln 25 feeders and a Miller 32sp. I have .045 dualshield in one of the Ln25 feeders, and a self- shielded fluxcore in the other, in either .045 or .068. The Miller feeder either has .035 solid 70S-6 in it or a .035 stainless wire.
    One advantage of these feeders is that if I need to, I can also use them in the shop. I can run them off of a couple of Miller power sources I have. These feeders are very versatile.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    And, I use C25 for both the dualshield and the 70S-6 solid wire. I carry two oxygen cylinders, one C25, one propylene, and if I need it I have a spot for an argon cylinder. All are the full size,(whatever that means!!)

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    C-25 would work for Mig or Dual-Shield but the Dual-Shield would have to specify C-25 shielding gas. Some Dual-Shield wires call for straight CO2. If it specifies C-25 or CO2 would also work for you.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Yea, the sweet spot for 045 FCAW-G is about 200-280A, give or take.
    My LWS can order me a 300 amp profax gun. Should I go with .045 liner or up it some?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Do you have an Argon tank for TIG already? If so, you can mix Argon with C25 to create an argon-rich mixture for pulsed-spray or regular axial spray-transfer. So with only two tanks (Ar and C25) you can TIG and MIG solid wire, FCAW-G, and pulse/spray solid wire. I can even make you a Frankenmixer for you.
    I have no tanks or tig. Tig interests me but I'm not sure how much I would use it--looks slow and tedious. I don't weld on much small stuff or non-ferrous metals. I searched around here for mixing my own gases and didn't turn up much positive feedback. I see smith mixers for sale for around $1k. While learning mig I'm probably better off eliminating problematic variables and sticking with premixed gas tanks. Tanks alone are $400 plus. How does the frankenmixer work? What's one cost?

    I'm guessing my little machine can't do spray transfer--so C8 wouldn't help there. I could setup the LN25 for spray only (with C8). Mostly I weld angle, channel, oilfield pipe, I-beams, and repair trucks and tractors.

    Anyone ever gut a lincoln HD140 110 unit to work with a bigger power supply? It'd be nice to use it as a stand alone wire feeder for small stuff using the invertec as the power source. Then again changing wire is easy enough.

    If you had only one tank with my equipment, would you go C25 or setup to always spray and do without dualshield? All position welding is important to me.

    What size tanks should I get?

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by villageblacksmith View Post
    I do mobile welding. On everything "from thin to thick". I generally carry three suitcases with me. Two Ln 25 feeders and a Miller 32sp. I have .045 dualshield in one of the Ln25 feeders, and a self- shielded fluxcore in the other, in either .045 or .068. The Miller feeder either has .035 solid 70S-6 in it or a .035 stainless wire.
    When do you use .045 dualshield vs the .035 solid? Which is most versatile? If you only had one--which?

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Another question: 15' seems to be standard mig gun length but I see them offered in 20 and 25'. Are the longer lengths trouble? I have a cart for the LN25 and tank so don't need long gun but it's always nice to have more reach.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbarasing View Post
    My LWS can order me a 300 amp profax gun. Should I go with .045 liner or up it some?


    I have no tanks or tig. Tig interests me but I'm not sure how much I would use it--looks slow and tedious. I don't weld on much small stuff or non-ferrous metals. I searched around here for mixing my own gases and didn't turn up much positive feedback. I see smith mixers for sale for around $1k. While learning mig I'm probably better off eliminating problematic variables and sticking with premixed gas tanks. Tanks alone are $400 plus. How does the frankenmixer work? What's one cost?

    I'm guessing my little machine can't do spray transfer--so C8 wouldn't help there. I could setup the LN25 for spray only (with C8). Mostly I weld angle, channel, oilfield pipe, I-beams, and repair trucks and tractors.

    Anyone ever gut a lincoln HD140 110 unit to work with a bigger power supply? It'd be nice to use it as a stand alone wire feeder for small stuff using the invertec as the power source. Then again changing wire is easy enough.



    If you had only one tank with my equipment, would you go C25 or setup to always spray and do without dualshield? All position welding is important to me.

    What size tanks should I get?
    Yea I'd say 045 liner, as you can still run 030 wire if you need to. Your little machine you mean your 110V welder? No, it won't spray anything except it's guts if you tried to make it do spray transfer, LOL. Your Invertec however, should handle anything you throw at it. My Frankenmixer is a custom-made gas mixing station that is cheaper than $1k brand-name mixers, but I guess it won't matter if you're not interested in mixing for an argon-rich mix. You don't want to limit yourself to spray-transfer because that is not an all-position welding process--it is limited to flat/horizontal. Pulsed-spray has better control, but I didn't read that your machine as pulsed-spray on the Lincoln literature. But basically, if limiting yourself to one tank you should go with, it's C25.

    As for gutting your 110 welder to solely feed wire? I suppose that could work, except you'd have to carefully observe two things: are the contacts on the MIG gun receptacle rated to handle the full welding current of the Invertec? Does the motor have enough WFS to take even produce the amperage you need? Remember that all other things held constant, WFS determines your amperage output.

    For MIG gun length, longer gun lengths may pose a problem if your wire feeder is not of very high quality and of a 4-roll system. You need very consistent feeding, and a 4-roll drive system helps straighten out the wire some. The main issue is over-coming the friction that results when the wire is sliding inside the liner as it is being pushed. The longer the gun, the more resistance it will present to the drive system. To overcome friction within the liner, the friction at the surface of the wire and the drive wheels/rollers has to be greater [than the friction caused by the length of the liner], thus you need more pressure on the wire to create more friction at the drive wheel, but then too much pressure and you can actually start to deform the wire which is not good for feedability.

    • A 2-roll system with 1 drive wheel and 1 flat follower wheel has 3 total contact points
      • 2 contact points from the drive wheel that has the groove, and one from the follower
    • A 2-roll system with both driven wheels where each wheel has a groove, has 4 total contact points
      • 2 contact points per groove = 4 contact points
    • A 4-roll system with 2 drive-wheels and 2 flat followers has 6 total contact points on the wire
      • 3 contact points per wheel-pair = 2 from the individual groove + 1 on top from the follower)
    • A 4-roll system with all 4 drive wheels each with a groove has 8 total contact points on the wire
      • each wheel provides 2 contact points and there are 4 wheels with grooves = 8 points.


    The more contact-points, the more friction (aka grip) on the wire while having less roller tension you need to grip [and ultimately push] the wire, because each contact-point serves to create a frictional point, which serves to not deform the wire which then works in your favor to push it inside a long liner/gun length. For cored wire it's a little different because the wire will ultimately get crushed just a little bit, which is why there are knurled rollers. They provide the much needed grip because downward pressure that is used on solid wire will crush and severely deform cored wire. They can generally be pushed along greater lengths than solid wire. A 4 roll system even with on 2 drive wheels should be able to push cored wire into a 20-25 foot MIG gun. Your HD140 wont, lol.
    Last edited by Oscar; 10-10-2020 at 10:08 AM.
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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Personally all I use is 15' bernard q-300 guns. For me .035 hard wire with c-25 gas does 90 percent of what I do. Occasionally I use .045 or .068 self shield if I have larger outdoor projects, stick for most outdoor things. I use a dedicated Lincoln innershied gun for the .068 wire. For .045 self shield I use the bernard gun with an old nozzle I cut down to retain the tip. If I have a larger job involving heavier steel,( 1/4" and thicker) I use .045 dual shield with c-25 thru the same bernard gun as I use for hard wire. I also have a co2 cylinder that I use occasionally with hard wire.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    My invertec will pulse. It is the advanced process model. I'd like to hear/see more details about the frankenmixer. I am interested in the high argon mixes.

    I wouldn't use the 110v machine for big stuff, but using the invertec power source with it would keep me from hitting the duty cycle. The duty cycle is what I remember most about using that machine--waiting for it to weld again for another 5 minutes. And the invertec would allow pulse, pulse on pulse, etc. I have no experience with it but it seems that welding thin stuff benefits from pulsing, less burn thru and warping.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    Personally all I use is 15' bernard q-300 guns. For me .035 hard wire with c-25 gas does 90 percent of what I do. Occasionally I use .045 or .068 self shield if I have larger outdoor projects, stick for most outdoor things. I use a dedicated Lincoln innershied gun for the .068 wire. For .045 self shield I use the bernard gun with an old nozzle I cut down to retain the tip. If I have a larger job involving heavier steel,( 1/4" and thicker) I use .045 dual shield with c-25 thru the same bernard gun as I use for hard wire. I also have a co2 cylinder that I use occasionally with hard wire.
    what size liner is your bernard? Sounds like you put .035 - .068 thru it. Edit*** nevermind, you have a dedicated gun for the innershield

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    .052 will fit altho I never run it. Seems like liners last forever in bernard guns as I've never replaced one.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    My LN25 has 2 drive rollers that are geared together--they both turn. I'm not worried about the 140 other than for small stuff, used with it's factory gun, and perhaps powered by the invertec if that's even feasible--the thought only occurred to me this morning. The last thin thing I welded was to repair a stamped mower deck, probably 2 years ago, I used smaw.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    This world is a big place, and welding is a large field, with many different aspects. What works for one person isn't necessarily what the next man will chose. With that being said, I would suggest, for mobile repair work, that you shelve the idea of using spray transfer, at least for awhile. Get familiar with using both solid wire in short circuit and dualshield in the field. I generally will use solid wire when I have thickness of 1/8 and under. I also tend to use solid wire for the first pass if I am in a situation where there is poor fitup, or difficult to remove slag due to close quarters, etc. Situations do vary. Which one would I chose if I had only one wire? That depends more on you than it does on my preferences. I might lean a little harder towards solid wire, but if I wasn't set up for dualshield, I would get there as soon as possible. Just because adjustable wrenches are available doesn't mean that that should be the only wrench in the toolbox!

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    I did get sidetracked from the fact that you wish to get set up for work in the shop. However, general repair is general repair, whether in the shop or in the field.

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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbarasing View Post
    My invertec will pulse. It is the advanced process model. I'd like to hear/see more details about the frankenmixer. I am interested in the high argon mixes.

    I wouldn't use the 110v machine for big stuff, but using the invertec power source with it would keep me from hitting the duty cycle. The duty cycle is what I remember most about using that machine--waiting for it to weld again for another 5 minutes. And the invertec would allow pulse, pulse on pulse, etc. I have no experience with it but it seems that welding thin stuff benefits from pulsing, less burn thru and warping.
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    Re: Gonna give gas a try; want advice.

    Turns out my LN25 is the extra torque model: max 400 wire speed.

    What are the pros and cons of that?

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