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Thread: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

  1. #26
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    Re: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

    I have an Airco 250 Heliwelder that does the same thing whenever I'm on a temporary connection less than the full service the machine requires. So if I bring my welder into the factory floor and use a 50A to 70A 230VAC connection with an adapter, sometimes the breaker trips on start up. When properly wired to its 100A 230VAC service disconnect, or its new 480VAC twist lock it doesn't ever seem to do that. I got by with a 70A 230VAC breaker and service outlet for a couple of years before I ran a dedicated service. Welded fine and rarely blew the breaker, and when it did, it was either right as I threw the switch or after a few minutes welding on 1/2" aluminum. I don't think having it in a low amperage setting would make any difference, even when local and remote were set low, it still happened. I don't think I will ever bring this Heliwelder home for the garage, my whole house only has a 100 amp 240VAC service, and the transformer on the pole looks about a hundred years old. Some day I would like to get an Inverter AC/DC tig for the garage, like a Lincoln SW200 or something similar.
    I think that until you have full amperage service(100 A ) for the machine you will probably continue to have "nuisance trips". Hopefully the panel isn't too far away.

    Good Luck
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  2. #27
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    Re: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

    Exactly. Running 250 amp transformer machines and trying to get away with something that should not be feeding it in the first place you should expect it to trip on startup and at upper amperage settings. When they call for a 100 amp feed then you give it only 50-60 amp which is only half what it should have the question is really why wouldn't it trip. Then bumping the breaker just to get it to start is not so good because then you could weld a little to far up on the amps too long and you can overload the wiring if it doesn't match the breaker. The wire size must still be there for what it can draw or in that vicinity. The code allowing a larger breaker does not mean the wire can fall way short of what it needs to feed it properly. You can create a issue for sure. If the wire size is half of what the machine requires it doesn't mean you can still double the amperage of the breaker.

  3. #28
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    Re: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by danielplace View Post
    Save yourself the cost and aggravation and just increase the breaker size. Of course the 50 is tripping so put a 80 and see if that doesn't solve the issue. Even a new 60 may make it start doing all you need it to do I mean especially if your saying the 50 on it at the old place was enough for you. What is the actual wire size ? A new run you would need from the new service anyway. You could upgrade the run to what is there now and fix it if it is just a wire/breaker size issue also.

    Before wasting a lot of money be sure of what they can actually supply to your service as they have a lot of rules they follow so you don't over load their equipment especially in a residential setting.

    Have a real service planner out to go over the new feed it it it's entirely in writing before buying equipment is all I am saying because I have seen this same exact scenario play out a few times before.

    Make sure the existing transformer can handle what your looking for. Are you sharing the same transformer with any other residential customers now ?

    Make absolutely sure that they can deliver before spending.

    You may not find a standard matter base that can deliver more than 320 amps continuous. Doubt they are going to set you up with a real 400 amp service. It would need to be done current transformer style most likely to make that happen.

    Then they may come in and feed it all with 1/0 aluminum or something grossly undersized for the amperage of the service. Short run will still deliver pretty good amperage without too much voltage loss but not 400 amps. The wire size is their damper and fuse between your service and the transformer so it doesn't feel the hit as much when you throw a big load at it.

    Probably looking at something like this for meter. Unless they supply the meters cans which hasn't been that way for 30 years here in Florida as prior to this they supplied most single phase residential meter cans.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milbank-...4MlA&gclsrc=ds

    -or-

    https://www.gordonelectricsupply.com...06546e0a848889

    Yes I hear what your saying Daniel, however my panel is currently maxed out. We own a decent size home with multiple A/C units, swimming pool and spa, electric ovens, etc. The current 200A service is Square D Homeline panel. It is painfully overloaded with tandem breakers galore. Its already got one subpanel going to the pool equipment, and it's overloaded. The problem is the largest 220V tandem breaker Square D offers in the Homeline series is a 50A 220V with two additional 20A circuits. I'd like to give myself room to grow as I see at least one possibly two electric cars/trucks in my future and solar.....
    My electrical service is through Edison, I had the planner come out last week. He opened up the panel which revealed 1/0 aluminum, he said it will be no problem to switch it out for 4/0 I'm underground with 3" PVC. He is supposed to do my calc's this week but thinks it's a no brainer as many of the homes in my area are going this route. Hell I was inquiring about a 600A panel, but it's out of my reach right now as I've been out of work since March 13th with no real guarantees of work until this COVID bs gets under control. You are right about the panel as its essentially two separate 200 amp breakers, I wanted to use the same Homeline Square D type panel but it seems they don't have one that's EUSERC 302A compliant as well as solar approved in 400A. More phone calls tomorrow. I need more power!!!
    Last edited by camfab; 07-12-2020 at 10:11 PM.

  4. #29
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    Re: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by camfab View Post
    Yes I hear what your saying Daniel, however my panel is currently maxed out. We own a decent size home with multiple A/C units, swimming pool and spa, electric ovens, etc. The current 200A service is Square D Homeline panel. It is painfully overloaded with tandem breakers galore. Its already got one subpanel going to the pool equipment, and it's overloaded. The problem is the largest 220V tandem breaker Square D offers in the Homeline series is a 50A 220V with two additional 20A circuits. I'd like to give myself room to grow as I see at least one possibly two electric cars/trucks in my future and solar.....
    My electrical service is through Edison, I had the planner come out last week. He opened up the panel which revealed 1/0 aluminum, he said it will be no problem to switch it out for 4/0 I'm underground with 3" PVC. He is supposed to do my calc's this week but thinks it's a no brainer as many of the homes in my area are going this route. Hell I was inquiring about a 600A panel, but it's out of my reach right now as I've been out of work since March 13th with no real guarantees of work until this COVID bs gets under control. You are right about the panel as its essentially two separate 200 amp breakers, I wanted to use the same Homeline Square D type panel but it seems they don't have one that's EUSERC 302A compliant as well as solar approved in 400A. More phone calls tomorrow. I need more power!!!
    No doubt you seem like you have quite the load going on. Be nice to actually have had a load logging device on the service for a week and see what your loads really are.

    Are you regularly tripping the main ? Have you been burning up anything ?

    You may just mostly need more breaker space.

    Lucky to have the 3" underground. 4/0 aluminum if it were after the meter is only rated for like 160 amp. Huge step up from where you are for sure.

    After the meter the electrician will be running 4/0 COPPER to each individual 200 amp panel well actually they may use 2/0 since it is allowed as the minimum on residential 200 amp service.

    But yes going with meter/main with provisions to accept 2- separate 200 amp mains is the way you want to go and maybe either leave existing or do a change out on it then you add another complete 200 amp service for second panel and you'll have more amps and panel space than you will ever need.

    https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-MM040...01839431&psc=1

    Maybe two 30-60 space 225 amp panels, w/separate 200 amp feeds one existing and 1 new unless redoing original feed to panel then two new complete
    feeds.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Indoor-Squa....c100005.m1851
    Last edited by danielplace; 07-12-2020 at 11:01 PM.

  5. #30
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    Re: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
    ..., and you can double the amps on a dedicated circuit for a welder, so it would be within code.
    Respectfully, I believe this information is incorrect.
    I do not think a blanket statement like that can be made?

    I am not an electrician, so I could be incorrect of course.
    But my understanding of the situation is from below.

    The table that I have for this:
    Name:  welder current protection table 630.11(a) duty cycle multiplication factors.png
Views: 106
Size:  77.2 KB

    The explanation for it:
    Name:  size welder conductors.JPG
Views: 111
Size:  55.8 KB
    Dave J.

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  6. #31
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    Re: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

    And I'll remind that a 90 degree wire connected to 75 degree terminals is rated at 75 degree limits, not 90.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  7. #32
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    Re: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    Respectfully, I believe this information is incorrect.
    I do not think a blanket statement like that can be made?

    I am not an electrician, so I could be incorrect of course.
    But my understanding of the situation is from below.

    The table that I have for this:
    Name:  welder current protection table 630.11(a) duty cycle multiplication factors.png
Views: 106
Size:  77.2 KB

    The explanation for it:
    Name:  size welder conductors.JPG
Views: 111
Size:  55.8 KB
    I'm not an electrician either, and probably over simplified that statement...the 200% pertains to breaker size, not conductor size.

    I'm not trying to be right, so if a correction needs to be made, I'm not going to argue :-)

    In my layman's understanding, the chart you reference only determines the conductor size required. For my Sync 250DX, it shows a 40% duty cycle at the rated 250A, which is listed as drawing 96A and the multiplier for that would be .63 which works out to 60A. That's a bit over the 55A rating for my 8ga THHN.

    I ran that for a prior welder that was much smaller....if I was running it today I'd bump up to 6ga. I'm actually planning to add another welder outlet and turn the current outlet into one for my compressor (FLA around 23 as I recall) and I'm going to go up in wire size on the new one just to be safe.

    In the other part of 630 it says the breaker can be 200% of the welder rating, or the conductor rating, whichever is lower. My conductors are 55A rated, so in theory a 110A breaker would be allowed, but you can even roll up one size if you have a problem with frequent trips. 110A over 8ga wire sounds pretty extreme to me!
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  8. #33
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    Re: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

    Each new issue of code uses language about "if necessary"
    I'm not a fan of starting with a big breaker. I take a cautious approach & begin with a 60 on #6. Usually if that won't hold bumping to 80 is plenty.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  9. #34
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    Re: TIG Welders Tripping Breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Each new issue of code uses language about "if necessary"
    I'm not a fan of starting with a big breaker. I take a cautious approach & begin with a 60 on #6. Usually if that won't hold bumping to 80 is plenty.
    That certainly seems like the smart approach.
    Check out my bench vise website:
    http://mivise.com


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