Help - Core drill choices

[William McCormick]

For handrailing? A few times a year? I'd rather just weld base plates on, use a normal SDS drill and anchor bolts. I certainly wouldn't want a specific core drilling machine... maybe a combined SDS drill with a clutch or anti-kickback for a core drill bit.

We had a few crazy people ask for base plates because they spent so much on the stoop and they did not understand that only the rotary hammer drills break the stoop which we would have to use to put an anchor in for a plate anyway. The rails are always wobbly with base plates unless their design and shape give them strength by not relying on the base plate for left and right, support.

Kids swinging on a railing will destroy a base plate railing in minutes. Coring is best and I have done it every which way there is to do it. I would be the first to admit that you have to know or understand what it is you are doing to core drill though, that is why I listed the greatest ways to fail and how to avoid them. Once you have a core drill, you find ways to use it that are pretty cool. Coring through cinder block or cement walls for an electrical, plumbing, or gas connection is now a quick fun job. If you want to remove a railing vertical that corroded off it is also a great device to have.

I just thought of something else. When you are done with the core drill, you should blow out the waterline with compressed air, I also squirt some DWD-40 in and then blow it out too. If you do not, you can cause rust on the shaft and the rust can cut up the seal. Because I did HVAC as well, I used to use my Gallo gun when I was done to clean it out. Or else I would forget to clean it.



Sincerely,

William McCormick

[tapwelder]

I cannot see why coring would automatically be stronger. I core primarily for consistency of install, I have not found it faster on install than plates. I am also not fond of bolting a 3 ft leave atop a brick wall .

My logic...an appropriately sized plate with appropriate bolts would be stronger and last longer than cored post since, A proper weld is stronger than the base metal. In addition to a larger mounting area. Even bolt tensile strength is greater than the base. All considering a solid mounting surface.

Coring allows me to attack multiple surfaces without concern for the surface failure.

Under percussion drilling , Brick and pavers are notorious for moving or cracking. Movement allows water infiltration and future brick pop. Ultimately , I do not want to turn a 45 minute job into an all day job.

Rail layout make a huge difference too in stability. Don't do 49 straight linear feet atop a red brick wall with blue tapcons and call it good.

[William McCormick]

I cannot see why coring would automatically be stronger. I core primarily for consistency of install, I have not found it faster on install than plates. I am also not fond of bolting a 3 ft leave atop a brick wall .

My logic...an appropriately sized plate with appropriate bolts would be stronger and last longer than cored post since, A proper weld is stronger than the base metal. In addition to a larger mounting area. Even bolt tensile strength is greater than the base. All considering a solid mounting surface.

Coring allows me to attack multiple surfaces without concern for the surface failure.

Under percussion drilling , Brick and pavers are notorious for moving or cracking. Movement allows water infiltration and future brick pop. Ultimately , I do not want to turn a 45 minute job into an all day job.

Rail layout make a huge difference too in stability. Don't do 49 straight linear feet atop a red brick wall with blue tapcons and call it good.

You can use flanges but the size of the flange you would need to support a 34 1/2" vertical 1 5/8" in diameter would be around 5 or 6 inches in diameter. I have the engineering slide rule for determining it. And then the anchors would offer substantial support and if they are 3/8" thick or 1/2" thick they can offer support but still not like the support you get from coring. Try to use flanges for gas meter cement-filled barricade pipes you would be laughed at. You could do it and submit an engineering paper with the work but the plate would have to be 2" thick and about two feet round to offer anywhere near the same support of a pipe set in cement.

But you can use flanges if the railing is strong enough to take you back to the next support. Or the railing is in such a geometric configuration that it supports the end of the rail. We used to add a small solid half-inch square bar to the solid one-inch square bar vertical as a gusset to support the end of a busy railing. That was when we used to rotary hammer drill six inches in from the edge to prevent cracking and there was room to drill for the half-inch square bar gusset. Today everything is four inches in from the edge or less. Now it is, five inches on-center. Which leaves you less than four.


Sincerely,

William McCormick

[ronsii]

I think I mentioned it in the other thread but not here... I use one of the 1 or 2 gallon pump sprayers from home depot as a water source when there isn't water available, depending on how many holes their size and depth a 1 gallon is fine for just a few small holes as it doesn't take much water anyways just enough to keep the tip cool and flush out chips

[William McCormick]

I cannot see why coring would automatically be stronger. I core primarily for consistency of install, I have not found it faster on install than plates. I am also not fond of bolting a 3 ft leave atop a brick wall .

My logic...an appropriately sized plate with appropriate bolts would be stronger and last longer than cored post since, A proper weld is stronger than the base metal. In addition to a larger mounting area. Even bolt tensile strength is greater than the base. All considering a solid mounting surface.

Coring allows me to attack multiple surfaces without concern for the surface failure.

Under percussion drilling , Brick and pavers are notorious for moving or cracking. Movement allows water infiltration and future brick pop. Ultimately , I do not want to turn a 45 minute job into an all day job.

Rail layout make a huge difference too in stability. Don't do 49 straight linear feet atop a red brick wall with blue tapcons and call it good.

The main reason you do not want to use anchors in a flange is that it requires the aggregate, the cement, the stone, or the brick to hold the anchor using cohesion. Unless the load is side to side it is not an engineering type mount. Aggregate like cement, stone, or brick is only rated for compression strength.

The funniest thing I ever saw was when a friend asked me to run out late at night and help him get his roll-up gate closed, one slat had shifted and jammed in the track. I took a look and told him I cannot do anything about it. He asked me to saws-all it but I warned him that the vibration might cause the gate to come off the wall because I did not see any threaded rods with plates through the cinder block. He laughed and said just do it. I positioned my ladder off to the side of the gate and reached around to cut. My friend stood on the sidewalk about eight feet back. He started talking to someone just as I touched the Sawzall to the rollup gate. As soon as I touched the gate the blade jammed and the whole thing let go. I looked back and he is looking away and talking. I yelled so loud that it shook him, he turned and then ran into the street to avoid behind hit. The point is that anchors are really BS push comes to shove. Most electricians know not to Sawzall on a rack of pipes on Kindorf suspended by anchors from cement ceilings.

When you core drill into cement, you are using the cement as close to its intended use as possible, for its compression value only.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[William McCormick]

I think I mentioned it in the other thread but not here... I use one of the 1 or 2 gallon pump sprayers from home depot as a water source when there isn't water available, depending on how many holes their size and depth a 1 gallon is fine for just a few small holes as it doesn't take much water anyways just enough to keep the tip cool and flush out chips

For sure, I also carry a four-way hose bib key with me, so when I am at commercial sites, libraries, schools, industrial or city buildings I can use their water.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[tapwelder]

Aren't wedge and sleeve anchors compressive. Often times bolt spec. Strength in Concrete ratings and substrate. Seems like i only repair cored rails. Cannot recall a failed bolt in a rail in concrete.

[ronsii]

For sure, I also carry a four-way hose bib key with me, so when I am at commercial sites, libraries, schools, industrial or city buildings I can use their water.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

Most the sites we work at don't have easily accessible water... or power for that matter so I am pretty much setup for anything I have the standard 4-way square keys in the truck... somewhere plus 5 or six other keys for some of the oddball spigots... and I always have a small crescent, needle nose and linemans on me

Unless you're going to be drilling more than a dozen holes it'll take longer to rig hoses and whatnot compared to running a sprayer anyways... same with power... I like to get on site and go to work!!! and get outta there I see so many guys from different trades show up and they will be screwing around trying to get power for 20 - 30 minutes even for little jobs where they could have brought cordless tools to accomplish their task if they didn't want to bring a genset...

[William McCormick]

Most the sites we work at don't have easily accessible water... or power for that matter so I am pretty much setup for anything I have the standard 4-way square keys in the truck... somewhere plus 5 or six other keys for some of the oddball spigots... and I always have a small crescent, needle nose and linemans on me

Unless you're going to be drilling more than a dozen holes it'll take longer to rig hoses and whatnot compared to running a sprayer anyways... same with power... I like to get on site and go to work!!! and get outta there I see so many guys from different trades show up and they will be screwing around trying to get power for 20 - 30 minutes even for little jobs where they could have brought cordless tools to accomplish their task if they didn't want to bring a genset...

I was checking out the Milwaukee fuel cordless diamond core drill at a Milwaukee show, it is pretty wild and not heavy at all considering the battery. But the price is a bit much. If they could get it down to $1,500 I would own one tomorrow. I might get one anyway if I get a nice coring job.

I am hoping they make a cordless cement chain saw for cutting in duct through cinderblock. And of course for cutting in doorways and windows.

My life is pretty crazy, one day I am doing something Fire Alarm the next I am putting in a makeup air system in a restaurant or installing a bunch of package units in an apartment or laundromat, or piping gas to large building boilers. I guess with the Corona BS a lot of people are not coming in and collecting unemployment.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[wb4rt]

A friend in the handrail business went with me to look at the jobsite. Some concern about the brick pavers, but thinks it will be ok if we take our time. I’m anticipating having to replace a paver or two. I’m going to hire one of his guys to help me drill and install these rails. They do commercial jobs every day. That will give me a chance to learn more about it. It will probably be January when I install.

BTW, he just ordered that Milwaukee cordless core drill. I think he said almost $3000 - yikes!!

[walker]

Once you have installed a rail using cored holes, then you understand. It is vastly more ridgid than base plates. Most pre made base plates I see are usually made out of 10 gauge. Base plates dont even pretend to be ridgid until after quarter inch. If I had to install a rail with base plates I would say 3/8” plates would be a minimum thickness.

If you have never cored for rails, or are on the fence about it, just hire out the coring, it is not hugely expensive to build into the cost of the rail. Watch the guys who do the coring and you will see how quick and easy it is. Then you install the rail with the quick set and it is ridgid in minutes. Once that is done you won’t want to go back to base plates for rails ever again.

[ronsii]

I'm kinda surprised milwaukee doesn't already have a cordless chainsaw for block... they have just about everything else but I'm sure it would have to be on their MX stuff there's just too much power used for the chains I see the pro's running... well I guess you could punch through a CMU wall with 4 1 foot cuts on the 12amp fuel batt but even that would be close

[tapwelder]

Perhaps if you go out with your friend , you could ask him to take you to
or send you to a few previous jobs. You could inspect how rails wear, and make plans to improve or personalize your installs.

[tapwelder]

I have never used a sprayed, good idea. I use a 5 gallon bucket and dip the saw in in to the water. I am usually around water.

How do y'all pour up the holes?
How do you clean up ?
Do you shape the cement?
Pour flush or below level?.
What do you do when you go through brick and there is a nothing underneath/space.
Anybody use foam anchoring compound?

[ronsii]

I have never used a sprayed, good idea. I use a 5 gallon bucket and dip the saw in in to the water. I am usually around water.

Sprayed... I'm guessing you mean to my mention of using a homedepot sprayer??? I hook the spraker to the tubing that feeds the water swivel on the core drill... however I do spray the diamond blade of a stihl cutoff saw when cutting concrete/asphalt if I don't have regular pressure water to hook to or the hand saw doesn't have the water kit on it most of ours do but a couple don't.


How do y'all pour up the holes? Most of the railing I do they want a certain earthquake rated epoxy$$$ so I use that and put a starter course in each hole as it will seep down then give it a few minutes and cap them off.
How do you clean up ? very carefully!!! I always take a shop vac with me as it prevents a lot of the mess in the first place... but there will always be some - depending on the steps/walk/wall/etc... if you have water rinse it off.. when I do this I still usually have to vac the rinse as it will be heading to asphalt but if you have lawn/landscaping downhill rinse to it... dig a hole if you have to and cover it when done
Do you shape the cement? I usually go a slight bit convex to the pipe.. don't like to leave low spot for dirt/moss/etc.. to settle.
Pour flush or below level?. ^^
What do you do when you go through brick and there is a nothing underneath/space. I'll put chunks of rock/etc... in to support the bottom of the rail/pipe if there are big gaps shove paper or whatever you got in there to seal it up so the setting compound will stay... spray foam would work f you got the time...
Anybody use foam anchoring compound? if you mean like the fence post stuff??? nope... I don't see that working very good(at all)

.....

[tapwelder]

How long to you have to work the epoxy? Surely you core a close fitting hole? What method do you use to get the most use of tip and tubes if caulk style?


I have place cups in holes. Or cakes up cement create support.

Seems like cleanup takes lots of time. I keep vinegar around, to remove powder in red bricks.

A nasty scenario to hard to avoid.... White painted red brick. Aka pink tinted brick when you finish...

[ronsii]

The epoxy sets up fairly quick 10 minutes??? especially if you use it warm like they require!!!

I forget the number of the epoxy but whitecap carries it... gets expensive as you'll go through quite a few tube on an average install!!!

this is where the quickrock and other compounds will be a lot cheaper but..... I have fixed a good number of rail installs that were cored and set with some kind of quickrock... after a few years the filling starts to disintegrate and fills with water... after that it's all downhill

Here's one I did a year or so ago that was so bad there was no real patching the cement walls.. at least structurally so I did what we normally do on this kind of rail system... 'saddle' it we call em' saddles usually the steel plate will wrap around both side of the stub wall and over it for a place to weld the rail on. It is composed of 1/2inch by 6 inch plate the lengths will vary depending on obstructions but normally is 12 inches unless there is too much blowout on the walls then I go 16 inches... or 24 if it needs it. The get anchored with 5/8th anchorlocks at least 2 per side full depth again depends on the wall damage and what will work. Have probably done about 20 of these repairs per year... of course they are almost all in warehouse environments so nobody complains about the looks the good thing is when they back a truck into the railing next time it's easier to fix because the saddles do not move!!! so I just zip the railing off and glue down some more


The saddle pieces get fully welded at the 90degree joints in fact I weld the underside with a couple fillet passes too and it doesn't interfere with the concrete wall as they have a 3/4inch chamfer on them.

After the saddles are bolted in and the railing is welded down I'll patch the concrete wall back.


Oh...on this particular rail wall the saddles were only 2 piece a top and one side as the wall did not extend above the walkway... 95 percent of them do and I'll have at least a 6 inch piece running down the inner wall to put a couple anchors into... but then again the plate is thick enough it doesn't move anyways

And whoever set the handrail on the building messed it up

[tapwelder]

I used to use a product called rockite. I worked well. However it is only plaster of Paris and portland cement. It needed to be covered or painted . it would wear due to rain. It was non corrosive.

I use Rapidset now. It has sand in it. Not sure how it holds up. No noticeable wear.

I do form a dome when I pour.

Epoxy or acrylic might be the way to go. However, I end up with a lot of waste or have much left over.

[William McCormick]

I have never used a sprayed, good idea. I use a 5 gallon bucket and dip the saw in in to the water. I am usually around water.

How do y'all pour up the holes?
How do you clean up ?
Do you shape the cement?
Pour flush or below level?.
What do you do when you go through brick and there is a nothing underneath/space.
Anybody use foam anchoring compound?

I did these about 15 years ago, but you can see if there is a pattern in the stoop you might want to create the rail to match the pattern. I also saw some tools in the picture that you should have for removing the core or smashing it apart inside the core. A cold chisel for sure and a lump hammer.






Sincerely,

William McCormick

[ronsii]

Yeah, when I first started core removal could be a pain... so I tried a few time sds'ing a 1/8 hole first... worked great but was adding to the time the job would take as I would usually drill at least 8 inches in or less if the walk was thinner then I found the shopvac worked better at core removal than most other methods so that's my SOP now

[tapwelder]

I use sds with a chisel bit. It is handy for shaping the bottom of the hole too, if core doesn't come out even.

William McCormick, What did you use to fill those holes? They are close fitting.

[William McCormick]

I did these about 15 years ago, but you can see if there is a pattern in the stoop you might want to create the rail to match the pattern. I also saw some tools in the picture that you should have for removing the core or smashing it apart inside the core. A cold chisel for sure and a lump hammer.






Sincerely,

William McCormick

Those two inexpensive screwdrivers are to pick out the pieces you smash. Usually, the cores break off in one piece so the two screwdrivers make it easy to get it out. If you have a Shop-Vac like Ronsil mentioned it is great to suck out the pieces of the core and water just remember to take out your filter and empty and wash the shop vac or else next time it will blow red brick dust all over.

Because I was working for an AC company and this was a gig the boss and myself entered into, we could not bring a lot of tools with us. So we got it down to the tools you see, a Turkey baster and or rags to get out the water. In the winter sometimes spring and fall we would also bring a space heater to warm the stoop.

We also used the pieces of the smashed core to raise and lower the railing to level it.

We had a couple of stoops where the filling in the stoop had settled a few inches below the bottom of the bricks. I stuffed rags or paper or cardboard in, mixed a thick batch of quick rock, and sealed it up before setting in the rail. I think I cut an inch off the verticle so the rail was not too high.

If you put your screwdriver between the core and the stoop and pry the core breaks right off usually right at the bottom. Just pry towards the core so it does not chip the stoop. Sometimes you have to get out the cold chisel and break up the core that breaks high.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[William McCormick]

I use sds with a chisel bit. It is handy for shaping the bottom of the hole too, if core doesn't come out even.

William McCormick, What did you use to fill those holes? They are close fitting.

This is the stuff for setting rails, check out the link below. You mix it to the consistency of thick chocolate milk. Then when you pour you put the crushed pointed end of a coffee cup or soft plastic paint mixing cup up against the rail and let it run down the rail while it fills the hole. It is pure magic. On a hot day on a hot stoop, it sets in under a minute. On a winter day at 40 degrees, it takes about 15 minutes. Anything colder I preheat the stoop. I use ice water to mix the QuickRock on very hot days.

https://www.jansensupply.com/product...spx?dataid=QRK

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[William McCormick]

Most the sites we work at don't have easily accessible water... or power for that matter so I am pretty much setup for anything I have the standard 4-way square keys in the truck... somewhere plus 5 or six other keys for some of the oddball spigots... and I always have a small crescent, needle nose and linemans on me

Unless you're going to be drilling more than a dozen holes it'll take longer to rig hoses and whatnot compared to running a sprayer anyways... same with power... I like to get on site and go to work!!! and get outta there I see so many guys from different trades show up and they will be screwing around trying to get power for 20 - 30 minutes even for little jobs where they could have brought cordless tools to accomplish their task if they didn't want to bring a genset...

A lot of my jobs were stainless steel rails on fancy buildings like public libraries, malls, and schools so I had to wash the sidewalks down well when I was done, I had to find the water and get it hooked up.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[ronsii]

A lot of my jobs were stainless steel rails on fancy buildings like public libraries, malls, and schools so I had to wash the sidewalks down well when I was done, I had to find the water and get it hooked up.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

You're lucky most of those kinds of buildings will have a water source nearby... even if it means tapping into the irrigation system warehouse areas... not so much... sometimes the nearest accessible water is several thousand feet away in emergencies when I just need a couple gallons for mixing or something I'll pull a grate off a CB and drop a bucket down there to get water... ain't real clean water but it works for concrete and stuff anymore I keep a 5 gallon container of water in the truck permanently right next the the 5 gallon diesel can