Aren't wedge and sleeve anchors compressive. Often times bolt spec. Strength in Concrete ratings and substrate. Seems like i only repair cored rails. Cannot recall a failed bolt in a rail in concrete.
The reason is that thin flanges do not put much pressure on the anchors. But if you did you would see that the anchors pull a little crater out of the cement when the cement lets go. Load an anchor with upward force and then strike the anchor or even the metal the anchor is holding with a metal hammer, and check out what happens. Either the anchor slips a little or the cement lets-loose, leaving that large funnel or cone-shaped crater.
If you do not leave the QuickRok higher than the stoop then water can get in and freeze and crack the stoop. But the QuickRoc is pretty much forever if you keep it high.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
The epoxy sets up fairly quick 10 minutes??? especially if you use it warm like they require!!!
I forget the number of the epoxy but whitecap carries it... gets expensive as you'll go through quite a few tube on an average install!!!
this is where the quickrock and other compounds will be a lot cheaper but..... I have fixed a good number of rail installs that were cored and set with some kind of quickrock... after a few years the filling starts to disintegrate and fills with water... after that it's all downhill
Here's one I did a year or so ago that was so bad there was no real patching the cement walls.. at least structurally so I did what we normally do on this kind of rail system... 'saddle' it we call em' saddles usually the steel plate will wrap around both side of the stub wall and over it for a place to weld the rail on. It is composed of 1/2inch by 6 inch plate the lengths will vary depending on obstructions but normally is 12 inches unless there is too much blowout on the walls then I go 16 inches... or 24 if it needs it. The get anchored with 5/8th anchorlocks at least 2 per side full depth again depends on the wall damage and what will work. Have probably done about 20 of these repairs per year... of course they are almost all in warehouse environments so nobody complains about the looks the good thing is when they back a truck into the railing next time it's easier to fix because the saddles do not move!!! so I just zip the railing off and glue down some more
Attachment 1720698
The saddle pieces get fully welded at the 90degree joints in fact I weld the underside with a couple fillet passes too and it doesn't interfere with the concrete wall as they have a 3/4inch chamfer on them. Attachment 1720699
After the saddles are bolted in and the railing is welded down I'll patch the concrete wall back. Attachment 1720700
Oh...on this particular rail wall the saddles were only 2 piece a top and one side as the wall did not extend above the walkway... 95 percent of them do and I'll have at least a 6 inch piece running down the inner wall to put a couple anchors into... but then again the plate is thick enough it doesn't move anyways
And whoever set the handrail on the building messed it up
I understand the welding, even with a very large V-die, it takes about 40,000 pounds to do that.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
This is what I have done for the last 4 years but I always believed drilling was a better technique than baseplates. I continue to get these handrail jobs so at some point you have to make the investment, learn new skills, and improve your business. I’m not planning to spend $1000, but for around $400 it’s doable. My latest job is more detailed than a simple rail and I’ll make more than enough to justify the investment.
Thanks to everyone for very good and needed advice. Please continue posting your recommendations and experience as it will help me and others who may be interested. I do not recall any other threads on this topic.
Why not spend a little more money and buy a mag drill? They can be bought for the prices you mentioned. They’ll run annular cutters just as well as the drills mentioned, perhaps easier since it secures itself to the workpiece, and you could probably find a hundred other uses for them in your fab work as well.
I’m assuming you meant annular cutters, when I first read your thread title I thought you were talking about the old school core drills, the ones that large machine shops use to drill very large holes. They drill faster that a regular bit and the cores they produce can often be used for other jobs versus ending up as chips. I’m talking about sizes like 6”, and you end up with a 5” core of useable material instead of a mountain of chips. Takes a very large lathe to run them.
Adding: Nevermind, I’m a dummy, I see what you’re asking for now, should have read the thread more before answering. I thought you were looking for “core drills” for metal, what a lot of people call annular cutters, didn’t realize you were talking about core drills for concrete. I thought you were punching pass though holes on the railing itself or holes on the base plates, not actual core drills for punching a hole in the concrete for the railing to drop into, sorry.
Last edited by Mike_L; 12-16-2020 at 02:38 PM.
Reason: I’m a dummy that should have read more before answering
Off to the powder coater. Will pickup next week I hope. Then we will see about the core drilling installation.
Very nice. Most people would crap their pants if they had to make that. I did wrought iron years ago and when a new guy would start he was like "is this real?" After a couple of weeks, he was bending iron on a jig all day wanting more. Are those hollow rings on your rail? We always used the rings with the dents put into them, they were hollow. They had both types.
One night I went to 7-11 after bending up a lot of steel for an outside rail on an estate, for whatever reason the boss bought steel instead of wrought iron. It was crazy strong but it required a lot more work to bend, we had to reinforce our jigs. This young drunk guy comes up to my face at 7-11 and starts calling me out, he was scaring people away from 7-11. I just looked at him, he sobered up, shut up, and walked away. Confidence is an amazing thing. I could not even imagine what I was going to do to him. I used to make the six-foot-high sections of 5/8" square bar fencing, weld them, and carry them around the shop all day. I could have picked him up and thrown him up on the roof of 7-11, haha. I think somehow he surmised that and did the right thing.
A new guy that started working just before this steel job wanted to quit while bending up the steel. After about two weeks he was getting lean and mean. One morning I said something to him like "is that all you did." He knew I was joking but really quickly he turned around walked right up to me and yelled: "What do you think you just had the balls to say to me!" That became one of my favorite sayings, I knew he was going to be ok in life after that.
On this rail, I used the petroleum-based cement die and the QuickRok for a country club rail. It makes it look like it grew out of the ground.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Maybe I cheated, I just bought 3 1/2” solid 1/2” steel rings from King Metal. Cost delivered was less than $3 each I think. I would have to pass if I had to bend all those - too old for that! I’m about too old anyway. I had to impose on my neighbor and friends to help me move them. Pickets are solid 1/2” square.
My customer is not concerned about price but I try to be reasonable. I think I will be $100/ft powder coated and installed. Any thoughts on market price?
If all goes well I should have them installed this week. I’ll add finished pictures then.
Your handrail looks great! Maybe one day I will know how to do work like that.
Last edited by wb4rt; 01-03-2021 at 12:05 PM.
Burt
_____________________
Miller Syncrowave 250
Millermatic 211
Miller 375 Plasma Cutter
Hobart Handler 140
BTW, i re-read my post. I mean that I think I will charge $100/ ft. My labor is included and I would be happy with that price.
I’m interested in what others charge for similar work. There was a thread a few months ago on handrail pricing and I seemed to be on the low end for simple rails.
Burt
_____________________
Miller Syncrowave 250
Millermatic 211
Miller 375 Plasma Cutter
Hobart Handler 140
Maybe I cheated, I just bought 3 1/2” solid 1/2” steel rings from King Metal. Cost delivered was less than $3 each I think. I would have to pass if I had to bend all those - too old for that! I’m about too old anyway. I had to impose on my neighbor and friends to help me move them. Pickets are solid 1/2” square.
My customer is not concerned about price but I try to be reasonable. I think I will be $100/ft powder coated and installed. Any thoughts on market price?
If all goes well I should have them installed this week. I’ll add finished pictures then.
Your handrail looks great! Maybe one day I will know how to do work like that.
There is no cheating it looks great. You can roll them around a 2" pipe that you can put in a lathe, just tack the square bar to the pipe and turn it, like making a spring. I never did it on a Rigid 300 but I believe you can do it. We used to use the Rigid 300 to twist 3/8" and half 1/2" bar. Then you just run a whiz wheel down the spring and slice them, straighten them and weld them. We bought the rings usually, the hollow ones.
For fancy wrought iron with powder coating, we used to get $100 a foot, almost twenty years ago. Large fence companies that we made rails for used to get much more from the customer. But for little one step stoops with just one step and a three-foot landing, rails on both sides, we used to get $270 - $320 installed. But we used the rotary hammer, many of them were solid cement steps, and we used to make and install three sets a day two guys. I am embarrassed by some of the fasteners we used, to tie them into the house, haha. It was whatever we had in the truck. Those rails only had one, 1"x 1" verticle on the bottom step, the others were just 1/2"square bar one at the front of the stoop and the other second to the last spot by the house that went through the "U" channel and into the cement. So we could drill those in seconds. But you needed the house mount, to strengthen it. For pipe rail, it depended on how many horizontal pipes there were.
On a cold day, the rotary hammer bits would shatter like glass if you did not warm them up with the torch.
We had a square punch in the iron-worker for the "U" channel but we also often bought punch-channel that was pre-punched, which made those little rails quick and painless.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Finally installed these today. Took a LOT longer than I thought, but I learned a lot. My friend who is in the handrail business helped me. My customer was very happy all around.
Perhaps, easier and faster with plates. When up install enough rails, then you discover consistency is valuable. How would you have installed on those surfaces with plates? Seems like prime example of when to core. Prefer to attach to walls on straight runs.
And like tapwelder says... that is where cores should definitely be used! Also... I'm guessing those are just CMU's under stucco to make up the steps and landing??? or maybe you mentioned that earlier in the thread... can't remember that whole area needs to be sealed up from water intrusion or it's just gonna keep going downhill
Perhaps, easier and faster with plates. When up install enough rails, then you discover consistency is valuable. How would you have installed on those surfaces with plates? Seems like prime example of when to core. Prefer to attach to walls on straight runs.
I agree, on this surface plates would have been sketchy at best. That is why I went with core drill. Still ran into hollow in a couple of holes, thus taking a lot longer.
I would have attached to the wall but windows were in the line. I had suggested a short outward turn at the ends to stiffen them but customer did not want a turn. I feel good they will be fine until some big guy swings on them and the concrete blocks gives way.
He plans to have the stucco repaired now. Will help with water and improve the looks.
Burt
_____________________
Miller Syncrowave 250
Millermatic 211
Miller 375 Plasma Cutter
Hobart Handler 140
I agree, on this surface plates would have been sketchy at best. That is why I went with core drill. Still ran into hollow in a couple of holes, thus taking a lot longer.
I would have attached to the wall but windows were in the line. I had suggested a short outward turn at the ends to stiffen them but customer did not want a turn. I feel good they will be fine until some big guy swings on them and the concrete blocks gives way.
He plans to have the stucco repaired now. Will help with water and improve the looks.
Yeah, I know how you feel when a customer want it a certain way and you know it should have more support!!! A support plate just below the sill would have helped tremendously too... but I can just hear the owner "It won't look right!!!!" Paint it white and they'll never even notice it again
Well my customer called me Monday and wants another set of handrails just like these I posted. There is another smaller set of steps going out to his pool. Of course steel prices have gone up but I have some in-stock.
Back to my original question about core drills - anyone using a SDS plus drill to core? I know I would have to have water spraying on the bit. I think I’m going to try using my drill instead of renting a Hilti for 6 holes. I can buy the bit for the price they charged me just to rent the bit.
Burt
_____________________
Miller Syncrowave 250
Millermatic 211
Miller 375 Plasma Cutter
Hobart Handler 140
Well my customer called me Monday and wants another set of handrails just like these I posted. There is another smaller set of steps going out to his pool. Of course steel prices have gone up but I have some in-stock.
Back to my original question about core drills - anyone using a SDS plus drill to core? I know I would have to have water spraying on the bit. I think I’m going to try using my drill instead of renting a Hilti for 6 holes. I can buy the bit for the price they charged me just to rent the bit.
I haven't personally used one.. yet... keep thinking about getting some bits to use that way for small jobs but almost everything we do I think would be better with regular core bits.... and as for water on them... I don't know I think they need the air to clear the material.... not sure how that would work wit water.. and gravity fighting it...
Tools direct usa. Sell various adaptor shanks. I presume you are gonna connect a wet core saw to your sds drill ??? I had one that adapted a core saw to a 1/2 drill chuck. The massive saw bent the adapter in short order.
I have used percussion hole saws on small sds and large rotary hammer. It was never pleasant for me.
I agree, on this surface plates would have been sketchy at best. That is why I went with core drill. Still ran into hollow in a couple of holes, thus taking a lot longer.
I would have attached to the wall but windows were in the line. I had suggested a short outward turn at the ends to stiffen them but customer did not want a turn. I feel good they will be fine until some big guy swings on them and the concrete blocks gives way.
He plans to have the stucco repaired now. Will help with water and improve the looks.
You just have to stuff it with something and pour just enough Quick Rock to seal it. Then cut an inch off the leg and set it and pour it.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Well my customer called me Monday and wants another set of handrails just like these I posted. There is another smaller set of steps going out to his pool. Of course steel prices have gone up but I have some in-stock.
Back to my original question about core drills - anyone using a SDS plus drill to core? I know I would have to have water spraying on the bit. I think I’m going to try using my drill instead of renting a Hilti for 6 holes. I can buy the bit for the price they charged me just to rent the bit.
They make dry diamond core bits that you can put in a large right-angle grinder. But they wear pretty fast you get 18 holes for a hundred bucks. And you have to watch jamming or you will toast your right angle grinder. I have used them up on an extension ladder coring for flower boxes on a brick wall. The dust is insane unless you put a vacuum hose right at the top of the hole.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
In theory, these can be used wet or dry so you could just have someone with a sprayer shooting it into the hole. But I had trouble with dry bits in damp brick so I don't know.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
They are used DRY, and if you need to drill deeper than the bit depth, you need to chip out the first cored segment.
They do NOT work if you hit rebar.
They are NOT my 'go-to' for making holes (they create a bunch of dust), as I also have more than 7 each HILTI diamond wet-core machines for holes up to 14" dia holes!
If you are going to use dry diamond core bits, and you are going to use a vacuum to suck the dust, I suggest keeping a five-gallon pail near the vacuum. Suck just a little water with the vacuum and then suck some dust, suck a little water then suck a little dust. It is messy but does save the filter.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Yeah, I know how you feel when a customer want it a certain way and you know it should have more support!!! A support plate just below the sill would have helped tremendously too... but I can just hear the owner "It won't look right!!!!" Paint it white and they'll never even notice it again
You can also just weld a 3/16 inch strap to the top rail and go left or right to avoid a window, just bend it to the house, and put one fastener in, it does help a lot. A lot of times though we would go to screw them to the house and hit rotted wood or perhaps hit the tongue and grove of the siding wood and it just barely, held. If that happened I would drive a wooden spike into the hole and try again, that usually worked well.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.
Tools direct usa. Sell various adaptor shanks. I presume you are gonna connect a wet core saw to your sds drill ??? I had one that adapted a core saw to a 1/2 drill chuck. The massive saw bent the adapter in short order.
I have used percussion hole saws on small sds and large rotary hammer. It was never pleasant for me.
Yes, I am planning to use my SDS plus drill with adapter to wet core hole bit. I only have 6 each 2” holes and don’t think there is any rebar. If I break the adapter, I will have to rent a core drill but seems worth $50 to try it. We did not have any problems with coring for the first set of rails. I’ll let you know how good/poorly it works. I hope to install this second set within a week or so.
Thanks to everyone for the comments! I’m still learning.
Burt
_____________________
Miller Syncrowave 250
Millermatic 211
Miller 375 Plasma Cutter
Hobart Handler 140
Ok, here is my experience using SDS-plus drill with adapter to regular 2” wet core bit. We drilled 6 holes in about 2 hours. Two holes were in solid concrete and four were in brick pavers on swung concrete porch. We drilled 4” deep. The SDS-plus cut perfect cores. The only problem was the clutch frequently tripped due to binding or snagging. That caused a loud clicking sound.
Bottom line, the SDS- plus is capable but it is a slow process requiring us to take turns about every 1/2 hole.
Here are some pictures of today’s installation matching the rails I installed in January.
Burt
_____________________
Miller Syncrowave 250
Millermatic 211
Miller 375 Plasma Cutter
Hobart Handler 140
Reply
Originally Posted by ronsii
The epoxy sets up fairly quick 10 minutes??? especially if you use it warm like they require!!!but..... I have fixed a good number of rail installs that were cored and set with some kind of quickrock... after a few years the filling starts to disintegrate and fills with water... after that it's all downhill
we call em' saddles usually the steel plate will wrap around both side of the stub wall and over it for a place to weld the rail on. It is composed of 1/2inch by 6 inch plate the lengths will vary depending on obstructions but normally is 12 inches unless there is too much blowout on the walls then I go 16 inches... or 24 if it needs it. The get anchored with 5/8th anchorlocks at least 2 per side full depth again depends on the wall damage and what will work. Have probably done about 20 of these repairs per year... of course they are almost all in warehouse environments so nobody complains about the looks
I think they need the air to clear the material.... not sure how that would work wit water.. and gravity fighting it...