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Thread: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

  1. #26
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    Intrigued. I wonder how well it cuts
    I remember reading on this board somewhere that many large industrial scrappers use propane.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    I remember reading on this board somewhere that many large industrial scrappers use propane.
    The scrap yard near me uses propane for sure. They have a couple of carts set up with 100lb tanks and I've seen them cutting some pretty big stuff with that setup. What I've read is that a key difference is that the hottest part of the flame isn't at the tip of the blue cone like with acetylene (think it's farther out), so it throws people off if they don't know the difference. I think that leads to people thinking it doesn't have enough heat for cutting big stuff.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Setting the flame is different too.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Setting the flame is different too.
    Yeah, way different. I bought all the stuff needed to get set up for cutting (special hoses, special cutting tips, etc.) but I didn't like it. It always felt like the flame was just on the edge of blowing itself out all the time, and it also seemed to gobble up oxygen far faster than common sense (and my understanding of chemistry) suggested was possible...I mean, you could watch the pressure go down on a 250cf oxygen bottle. I ended up ditching it and going back to O/A for cutting.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quoted from Matheson Gas supply -


    WELDING WELDING, CUTTING, HEATING PROPYLENE, PROPANE, AND ACETYLENE - FUEL GAS CHOICES

    Alternative fuel gases are suitable substitutes for Acetylene. In many cases, preferred substitutes.

    Propylene can be faster than Acetylene in many applications - it can also be more cost effective. Generally speaking, Propylene can be expected to perform as well as, and even better than, Acetylene.


    Propane does not have the same BTU values as Propylene, but in the right applications, Propane has its own advantages over Acetylene.


    Propylene and Propane do not require chemical stabilization. Each cylinder contains more pounds of usable fuel gas.


    Making the move from Acetylene to Propylene or Propane (there are other choices too) will require some small adjustments, but not a measurable change in the way you work.

    To get the most out of Propylene and Propane, we recommend that you use a torch designed for higher pressure operation.

    Along the same lines, your gas pressure regulators need to be designed for the gas and the pressure you are using.

    For optimum results and safety, MATHESON recommends the use of tips specifically designed for alternative fuels.

    Acetylene hoses are not suitable for use with alternative fuels - Grade T hoses are required.

    Choosing and using the right hardware is not just a matter of productivity ... it's also a matter of operator safety. We can work with you on equipment recommendations and PPE choices as well.


    There are lots of choices, but sticking with O/A equipment is the most readily availabe, and adaptable. You can go from a 00 size tip to do jewelry sized object, to 1-1/2" steel cutting, to brazing big cast pieces. There is definitely advantages to using propane , and propylene, but probably not worth it unless doing it on a commercial level. I'm sure the OP will be happy with an OxyAcetylene setup.
    Last edited by albrightree; 01-20-2021 at 04:37 PM.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing


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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    I would sure prefer TIG brazing over any combustion process. I used gas & oxygen for a very long time before I had TIG equipment. TIG is hands down best!

    It might be argued that SOME cast iron, the extensive heating might relieve some stress. Preheating will be more effective, then TIG.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    I've used a few different fuel gases and regardless which one I'm using, I hit the cutting lever to check the flame. I want to adjust it so the inner flames stay the same when the cutting jet is introduced and can check the cutting jet is nice and straight (the tip is clean). The video above is a little off where the guy says neutral flame. A propane flame is oxidizing. Also don't think he needed the tip adjusted for maximum flow and shouldn't need 40 PSI to cut what looks like 3/8" or less. I prefer acetylene but will often use a smaller size tip and go a little slower when I want the most precision cut or narrower kerf.

    That said the best hand cutting I ever saw was at trade show where a guy from Smith's was hand cutting peoples names in 1/4" plate with acetylene. He rested his steady hand on a fire brick and his cuts looked like they were done with an electric eye pattern tracer. This was before CNC torches were out. It was one of those Ah Ha moments where I realized how good of a manual cut is possible. I consider myself pretty good with a cutting torch if I'm been doing a bunch recently but I've never seen anybody cut better than the Smith's guy at that trade show.
    Last edited by Welder Dave; 01-20-2021 at 07:21 PM.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    Intrigued. I wonder how well it cuts, mainly pierce. It takes a lot of heat to achieve exothermic action of the heated surface.
    No hotter than welding temp. Propane definitely produces enough heat to weld. Though it is like mig welding without shielding. Acetylene produces an environment that keep metal from oxidizing for welding.

    Cutting is just rapid oxidation... Relatively little is necessary after the reaction begins.

    The benzomatic setup claimed it would cut. By heating the metal the shutting off the fuel then allowing Oxygen doing the cutting. I imagine it worked, but not really functional.



    My local vendor does not use acetylene on their burn table. I think they use chemolene. They have tandem torch setup with plasma and o/f. Use o/f on heavy stuff ...2 plus inches

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    There has to be quite a bit of heat in the plate to continue a cut with just oxygen. That's why when cutting bevels or heavy plate a 2nd preheat torch is often used. Most burning tables don't use acetylene. It's too expensive and because it's an automated torch can be adjusted to give a good smooth cut. Also a multi-torch set up would require an acetylene manifold.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I would sure prefer TIG brazing over any combustion process. I used gas & oxygen for a very long time before I had TIG equipment. TIG is hands down best!
    Huh. Interesting. I've done it both ways (TIG and O/A brazing) and found O/A to be far easier and more controllable. One nice thing about O/A vs TIG is that you can play around with the flame -- moving it all around, pointing it completely away from the workpiece momentarily without having to restart the arc, "pulling" the puddle of bronze or silver solder with the heat, etc. -- in much more subtle, controlled ways with O/A than with TIG.

    To me, TIG brazing -- because it commonly puddled the steel when you didn't want to puddle the steel, and always seemed either too hot or too cold for brazing -- always felt kind of like "using a sledgehammer to do a job that a flyswatter would accomplish just fine without destroying the furniture."

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Huh. Interesting. I've done it both ways (TIG and O/A brazing) and found O/A to be far easier and more controllable. One nice thing about O/A vs TIG is that you can play around with the flame -- moving it all around, pointing it completely away from the workpiece momentarily without having to restart the arc, "pulling" the puddle of bronze or silver solder with the heat, etc. -- in much more subtle, controlled ways with O/A than with TIG.

    To me, TIG brazing -- because it commonly puddled the steel when you didn't want to puddle the steel, and always seemed either too hot or too cold for brazing -- always felt kind of like "using a sledgehammer to do a job that a flyswatter would accomplish just fine without destroying the furniture."
    Maybe we are talking about a different variety of TIG. I use a foot pedal to control heat & certainly play the arc around to heat surrounding metal.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I would sure prefer TIG brazing over any combustion process. I used gas & oxygen for a very long time before I had TIG equipment. TIG is hands down best!

    It might be argued that SOME cast iron, the extensive heating might relieve some stress. Preheating will be more effective, then TIG.
    How do you pre-heat ? My anvil won't fit in my Barbecue grill, and the ladies in the house wouldn't appreciate seeing it in the oven (it won't fit anyway).


    "Rosebud"..... Name:  Rosebud.jpg
Views: 113
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    No not that one. The OxyAcetylene one

    Name:  rosebudOA.jpg
Views: 120
Size:  90.1 KB

    I've often wondered about induction heating though .
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    They make propane rosebuds ya know, and at least with propane on a large rosebud you don't have to manifold multiple tanks together. ;-)

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Propane tank will freeze at high withdrawal rate.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by tapwelder View Post
    Propane tank will freeze at high withdrawal rate.
    What I've done is submerge the tank in a plastic garbage can partially filled with water. ( Barbecue size tank obviously.)


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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    I have a 40 lb. I do similar. When forging and around half tank it will not stay liquid. A good way to track volume... When it pops uo and tip over it is empty

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    My wife bought a weed dragon torch at the feed store, and man that thing can use some propane fast. I might have to borrow that for the 80lb anvil project.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Yup, SOP for preheat. Yes I have found it necessary to switch tanks. I wish I had a picture, I once had a 20 lb tank form a 1/2" layer of ice.

    My neighbor who died of heart disease 25 years ago would play the flame on the tank long enough to melt the frost off the tank.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Yup, SOP for preheat. Yes I have found it necessary to switch tanks. I wish I had a picture, I once had a 20 lb tank form a 1/2" layer of ice.

    My neighbor who died of heart disease 25 years ago would play the flame on the tank long enough to melt the frost off the tank.
    A few of the orchards around here have 20,000 gallon tanks to run the heaters during budding season to protect against frost. They have actual burners under the tanks to keep the pressure up. That's spooky to see in operation.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    A few of the orchards around here have 20,000 gallon tanks to run the heaters during budding season to protect against frost. They have actual burners under the tanks to keep the pressure up. That's spooky to see in operation.
    Holy crap. No kidding.


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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    I'm puzzled why you seem to think mapp gas (or propane) is somehow not as "dangerous" as acetylene. What exactly is your sticking point with O/A?
    If your acetylene tank drains into the room and ignites it will probably cause a rich pop taking out the windows. Then heat the room as it continues to burn for some time covering everything in lampblack, upon running out of oxygen it will break any unbroken windows as air is drawn into the room and then detonate like the best bomb you could imagine on earth.



    Mapp gas can also when mixed with air to the right fuel-air mixture, create quite the bang for the buck. It is the size of the cylinders that make Mapp gas a seemingly safer fuel.

    Propane when allowed to reach optimum fuel-air mixture can certainly surprise the heck out of a town as the streets roll like ocean waves from the overpressure.

    But acetylene has my vote.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Sure, but the only cylinder failures I'm aware of were in a burning building or a delivery truck that wrecked. Like any flammable, if you treat it with some common sense and respect, it's going to work for you. I've seen a static spark at the end of a fuel nozzle when I was going to fill my car's gas tank, and I'll tell you that scared me more than any acetylene tank ever did.
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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    Sure, but the only cylinder failures I'm aware of were in a burning building or a delivery truck that wrecked. Like any flammable, if you treat it with some common sense and respect, it's going to work for you. I've seen a static spark at the end of a fuel nozzle when I was going to fill my car's gas tank, and I'll tell you that scared me more than any acetylene tank ever did.
    Many years ago my brother was pumping out water contaminated diesel fuel from a boat some thirty feet away from the secured oxygen and acetylene tanks, apparently, when the bearings on the pump go and turn cherry red it can ignite the diesel fuel and create a lot of smoke and flame. However, when the bearings are so hot above six hundred degrees it separates the oxygen from the water and creates a very hot flame thrower that shoots thirty feet, that heats and blows off the tanks, and ignites the acetylene bottles, creating a very angry flame thirty-five feet into the air until they are empty.

    But I agree totally that acetylene is the safest all-around gas for what we do. I have been in a very powerful oxygen and acetylene explosion and although I do not recommend doing it, it is was rather amazing that it can bend nearby metal and yet not hurt a human being whatsoever. A little temporary "what did you say?" was the worst of it, along with some noticeable internal chest discomfort that was welcomed compared to the alternative.

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    Re: Non OxyAcetelyne Heat Sources for Brazing

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    A few of the orchards around here have 20,000 gallon tanks to run the heaters during budding season to protect against frost. They have actual burners under the tanks to keep the pressure up. That's spooky to see in operation.
    The bottom of the tank is not so bad if exactly controlled, but if you do that to the top of the tank with a torch you might not be so lucky. It depends on whether or not the tank is insulated, and how much how quickly the pressure changes above the very cold liquid. If it changes too quickly it can condensate onto the cold liquid below and boil off a lot of propane rather instantly and blow the tank.

    Sincerely,

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