Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35

Thread: Generator Exercise

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,781
    Post Thanks / Like

    Generator Exercise

    I know there are a lot of generator guys here so I have a question about exercise. Onan recommends 2 hours every month at 50% load for my QD 3200 diesel RV generator. I can see the importance of this in certain climates, but how important is it in a desert climate for a unit stored indoors away from moisture and temperature extremes?
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Cave Creek AZ
    Posts
    3,256
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    If you want it to start when you really need it, then you need to exercise it. Otherwise you will end up with a plugged injector, gummed up pump, dead battery, etc. just let it transfer and run the house, might consider adding a load to give it something to work it, a handle of water heater elements, or even flood lights that come on when it exercises would do the job.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    4,320
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    I think it is a lubrication thing more than anything. Engines need to be run regularly or they breakdown more rapidly. Things like bearings, bushings and seals will dry out if you don't run the engine once in a while to circulate oil throughout the engine. For gas engines, you need to exercise the electronics as well to make sure there is no moisture ingress. Finally there are things like mice, spiders, etc that get in there and cause damage as well if you don't regularly run an engine
    Miller Multimatic 255

  4. Likes ronsii, 12V71 liked this post
  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    northeast USA
    Posts
    11,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    I know there are a lot of generator guys here so I have a question about exercise. Onan recommends 2 hours every month at 50% load for my QD 3200 diesel RV generator. I can see the importance of this in certain climates, but how important is it in a desert climate for a unit stored indoors away from moisture and temperature extremes?
    would you let a car sit idle for 6 months and expect it to start and run well??? generator is the same thing...

  6. Likes ronsii, mcspeed liked this post
  7. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    7,750
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    The biggest concern I’d think would and could be an immediate problem with today’s ethanol gases is clogging the carburetors or injectors. I like to drain fuel tanks and run the fuel system dry till it peters out. Never had a problem starting any engine regardless of how many years it sat using this method. You mentioned it being diesel. Diesel does not break down like gas or not as fast anyway. Don’t run it out of fuel to store it.

    Seals on cranks and cams etc will go bad over time anyway. They may go bad a little sooner if you don’t keep up on the maintenance “especially oil changes”. Prime the engine oil with out fuel by cranking it over for a little while before adding gas to a gas tank or installing the fuel fuses/relay for fuel pump etc when starting the engine after a period of rest. The engine should be good to go after you prime it.

    Oil degrades just sitting in an engine regardless of hours running or not so if you let something sit for longer than a year then change the oil before normal operations again. Not familiar with that engine so not sure how to prime the engine with oil with out starting the engine. On some 100% mechanical diesels there is no electronics to cut off the fuel delivery. In those cases it might be best to run the engine every few months to cycle the oil.

    If you are going to let it sit for a long time and you are close to the oil change interval because of time since last oil change or hours on the clock it might be a good idea to change the oil and run the engine for a minute or so then run it out of fuel. This will lubricate all the seals and bearings with fresh oil. Once again don’t run the diesel out of fuel

    Last thing I’d consider is battery life. If you are not running it every month or two keeping the battery charged then you want to keep an automatic trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off and ready to go next time you need to use it. Make sure the fluids in the battery are maintained as well so the battery charger does not burn up the battery.

    That was a lot of rambling lol. Do what the manual says for best results
    Last edited by N2 Welding; 02-17-2021 at 12:22 PM.
    Lincoln, ESAB, Thermal Dynamics, Victor, Miller, Dewalt, Makita, Kalamzoo. Hand tools, power tools, welding and cutting tools.

  8. Likes ronsii liked this post
  9. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,781
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    A few clarifications:
    1. It is diesel so no worries about ethanol or varnish.
    2. I wasn't planning on letting it sit for 6 months, just asking how important the monthly recommendation is considering it is stored in a dry, rodent free and somewhat temperature controlled environment. That has to matter, it certainly does with a vehicle.
    3. The battery is the coach battery which is maintained all of the time.
    So considering the storage environment I was wondering if skipping a month here and there would hurt anything. It does start and run great now, and it is 10 years old with 182 hours on it so doing the math it is apparent it has not been exercised 2 hours per month which would be 240 hours just for the exercise alone. I understand the lubrication aspect of the engine, what I don't understand it exactly how the generating section works and what benefit, if any, it gets from regular exercise.
    Again, hoping to hear from some of our resident generator experts.

    As a side note, I also have a Honda eu2000i that I put away for the winter. I first ran it to warm it up, then changed the oil, then ran it completely out of fuel and put it in a temperature controlled storage area. Is this a bad idea?
    Last edited by bigb; 02-17-2021 at 01:21 PM.
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  10. Likes ronsii liked this post
  11. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Soda springs,Id
    Posts
    5,379
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Best thing I've found for small gas engines is non ethanol gas if you can buy it nearby. The ethanol absorbs moisture from the atmosphere and that's when fuel system problems arise. Since I've started buying it I don't have to run the fuel system dry.
    Ol' Stonebreaker
    "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"
    Hobart G-213 portable
    Miller 175 mig
    Miller thunderbolt ac/dc stick
    Victor O/A setup
    Makita chop saw

  12. Likes ronsii, 12V71 liked this post
  13. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,781
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by mla2ofus View Post
    Best thing I've found for small gas engines is non ethanol gas if you can buy it nearby. The ethanol absorbs moisture from the atmosphere and that's when fuel system problems arise. Since I've started buying it I don't have to run the fuel system dry.
    It's impossible to find here especially in the winter. I did drain the fuel bowl as well and removed the spark plug and put a squirt of Sea foam in there, then I pulled the rope till both valves were closed (after a few spins to distribute the Seafoam).
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  14. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    319
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    It may be a urban legend but i have heard of generators not charging if they had sit for a long time, loss of magnatisim or something.

  15. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Soda springs,Id
    Posts
    5,379
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by Ky farmer View Post
    It may be a urban legend but i have heard of generators not charging if they had sit for a long time, loss of magnatisim or something.
    With one I worked on it's a fact. I'd heard of applying 12vDC to the fields and it worked. I think some have capacitors to store voltage for field excitation instead of magnets and the capacitors must drain down over time with non use. Another trick I've heard of but haven't had occasion to try is to plug an electric drill in while the gennie is running and by hand turn the drill so the drill motor's magnets can excite the fields.
    Ol' Stonebreaker
    "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"
    Hobart G-213 portable
    Miller 175 mig
    Miller thunderbolt ac/dc stick
    Victor O/A setup
    Makita chop saw

  16. Likes ronsii, N2 Welding liked this post
  17. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Western Washington
    Posts
    10,551
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by mla2ofus View Post
    With one I worked on it's a fact. I'd heard of applying 12vDC to the fields and it worked. I think some have capacitors to store voltage for field excitation instead of magnets and the capacitors must drain down over time with non use. Another trick I've heard of but haven't had occasion to try is to plug an electric drill in while the gennie is running and by hand turn the drill so the drill motor's magnets can excite the fields.
    This would probably only work with an older brushed drill motor and then it would have to be a drill that would run on DC power too.

  18. Likes N2 Welding liked this post
  19. #12
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Central Wa. state
    Posts
    4,815
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by ronsii View Post
    This would probably only work with an older brushed drill motor and then it would have to be a drill that would run on DC power too.
    Somewhere in my "stuff", I have an old 1/4" single speed Souix drill that is AC/DC rated, bet that would work. Drive it with a cordless drill. Used to use it with the SA- 200's.

  20. Likes ronsii, N2 Welding liked this post
  21. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    minnesota
    Posts
    2,058
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Diesel can be prone to fuel problems as well. Especially if it has any amount of biodiesel in it. We have 2 large standby generators. 1 is a 150kw that is 26 years old that doesn’t get exercised very often. We also have a 800 kw that we have had for 10 years. The bigger one has gotten exercised the last year on a regular basis but previously did not. We change fuel out seasonally. The biggest problems we have had are batteries when the trickle charger goes to pot
    Millermatic 252
    millermatic 175
    miller 300 Thunderbolt
    lincoln ranger 250
    smith torches
    lots of bfh's
    If it dont fit get a bigger hammer

  22. Likes N2 Welding liked this post
  23. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    58
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    For the small honda generator you will want to drain the bowl as you stated. Preferable to add fuel stabilizer to any stored fuel or better yet drain it for long term. Even if methanol free fuel it will varnish and plug the jets which will require some work to fix.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. Likes N2 Welding liked this post
  25. #15
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Central Wa. state
    Posts
    4,815
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by mcspeed View Post
    For the small honda generator you will want to drain the bowl as you stated. Preferable to add fuel stabilizer to any stored fuel or better yet drain it for long term. Even if methanol free fuel it will varnish and plug the jets which will require some work to fix.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Don't waste your money on "fuel stabilizers" with ethanol fuel. They don't work. And ethanol fuel doesn't "varnish" carburetor passages, it corrodes the zinc base alloys they use now a days and plugs them with zinc oxide flakes that aren't going to be dissolved by anything that wont dissolve the carburetor body. Draining the fuel system is the only solution for preventing that problem. I've had to replace 3 carbs on small engines already that were beyond repair from ethanol gas. Now it's all non ethanol gas in all the small engines. First pull starts are a good thing after they have been sitting for a few months.

  26. Likes ronsii, N2 Welding liked this post
  27. #16
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    182
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Don't waste your money on "fuel stabilizers" with ethanol fuel. They don't work. And ethanol fuel doesn't "varnish" carburetor passages, it corrodes the zinc base alloys they use now a days and plugs them with zinc oxide flakes that aren't going to be dissolved by anything that wont dissolve the carburetor body. Draining the fuel system is the only solution for preventing that problem. I've had to replace 3 carbs on small engines already that were beyond repair from ethanol gas. Now it's all non ethanol gas in all the small engines. First pull starts are a good thing after they have been sitting for a few months.
    I disagree (to an extent) with the comment about fuel stabilizers not working. They definitely do work (again, to an extent), but it isn't a cure all. It just slows down the process. And, it's been my experience that even draining the carb doesn't guarantee that you wont get corrosion, mainly in the needle valve/seat. IMHO, the only real way to make sure you won't have trouble is to pull the carb and thoroughly clean it and put it away dry.

    I have mixed success with difference methods in our seasonal equipment. The snowblower is hit or miss. Sometimes it is just a matter of putting fresh gas and give it a couple tugs. This year, I had to pull the carb and clean everything. Our riding mower, doesn't seem to matter if I put stabilizer in, fresh or old gas, it will still fire on the first crank every spring, even after a 6 month nap.

    Had a Yamaha 4 wheeler that you couldn't let sit for more than 2 weeks without running it...stabilizer or not. The needle valve and seat were 2 different types of metal and you could almost watch it corrode.

  28. Likes N2 Welding liked this post
  29. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    northeast USA
    Posts
    11,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    A few clarifications:
    1. It is diesel so no worries about ethanol or varnish.
    2. I wasn't planning on letting it sit for 6 months, just asking how important the monthly recommendation is considering it is stored in a dry, rodent free and somewhat temperature controlled environment. That has to matter, it certainly does with a vehicle.
    3. The battery is the coach battery which is maintained all of the time.
    So considering the storage environment I was wondering if skipping a month here and there would hurt anything. It does start and run great now, and it is 10 years old with 182 hours on it so doing the math it is apparent it has not been exercised 2 hours per month which would be 240 hours just for the exercise alone. I understand the lubrication aspect of the engine, what I don't understand it exactly how the generating section works and what benefit, if any, it gets from regular exercise.
    Again, hoping to hear from some of our resident generator experts.

    As a side note, I also have a Honda eu2000i that I put away for the winter. I first ran it to warm it up, then changed the oil, then ran it completely out of fuel and put it in a temperature controlled storage area. Is this a bad idea?
    I try and run anything I have with an engine on it( small equip, generators) every few months just to keep oils and fuel running through them, so skipping a month here or there should be fine.....I put marine stabilizer in the 5 gallon gas can before fueling anything and leave everything with fuel in them, I think draining and running dry causes more issues( seals drying out , aluminum carb parts get that white coating on them) than not if the fuel is treated..

  30. Likes N2 Welding liked this post
  31. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mount Tabor VT
    Posts
    7,624
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by Ky farmer View Post
    It may be a urban legend but i have heard of generators not charging if they had sit for a long time, loss of magnatisim or something.
    That'd be a true generator, typically found in old tractors & cars. Production of electricity begins in permanent magnets moving, then as power is begun, it shunts to power electromagnetic field coils. "FLASHING THE FIELD" re magnetizes the permanent magnets.

    Modern auto charging equipment & an RV generator are actually alternators, they make AC power. No permanent magnets to worry about.


    As to not exercising a generator: I am a big believer that exercise is needed. It might be true it is less a concern in Arizona. I think a big thing is changes in temperature & humidity.

    Nonetheless, Louie is right, bearings, seals, rings, valve stems, rocker arms, camshaft, lifters, will dry out if left too long.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  32. Likes N2 Welding liked this post
  33. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    58
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Some things are hard to understand. I have a chain saw I bought new 35 years ago. Never drained the tank or added stabilizer. Has been stored without exercise for over a year and she fired after a few pulls. Iím thinking the two stroke oil in the gas helps tremendously. Maybe add two stroke oil to 4 stroke fuel before storing? Will likely help on the needle/seat issues as well as varnishing. Also on the corrosion from methanol.

    I have a jet ski that sat for 6 mos in the summer and it ran rough from bad fuel. Changed it and ran good. Now using stabilizer so will see what happens.


    Just sharing my experiences. No one size fits all but my experiences donít align with what some folks claim to be true :-).


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  34. Likes N2 Welding liked this post
  35. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,781
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by mcspeed View Post
    Some things are hard to understand. I have a chain saw I bought new 35 years ago. Never drained the tank or added stabilizer. Has been stored without exercise for over a year and she fired after a few pulls. I’m thinking the two stroke oil in the gas helps tremendously. Maybe add two stroke oil to 4 stroke fuel before storing? Will likely help on the needle/seat issues as well as varnishing. Also on the corrosion from methanol.

    I have a jet ski that sat for 6 mos in the summer and it ran rough from bad fuel. Changed it and ran good. Now using stabilizer so will see what happens.


    Just sharing my experiences. No one size fits all but my experiences don’t align with what some folks claim to be true :-).


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I've heard a lot about the lubrication advantages of 2 stroke oil and a lot of people swear by it as a diesel fuel additive in pre-SCR engines. I believe there is probably some truth to it.
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  36. Likes mcspeed liked this post
  37. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    northeast USA
    Posts
    11,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by mcspeed View Post
    Some things are hard to understand. I have a chain saw I bought new 35 years ago. Never drained the tank or added stabilizer. Has been stored without exercise for over a year and she fired after a few pulls. I’m thinking the two stroke oil in the gas helps tremendously. Maybe add two stroke oil to 4 stroke fuel before storing? Will likely help on the needle/seat issues as well as varnishing. Also on the corrosion from methanol.

    I have a jet ski that sat for 6 mos in the summer and it ran rough from bad fuel. Changed it and ran good. Now using stabilizer so will see what happens.


    Just sharing my experiences. No one size fits all but my experiences don’t align with what some folks claim to be true :-).


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    the oil mixed in the fuel is acting like stabilizer....the ethanol fuel is even worse, it draws in water...I know alot of people that spend more for non ethanol gas for equipment and snow mobiles...I like the marine grade stabilizer( greenish color), it works better than the red stuff in ethanol gas..

  38. Likes mcspeed, 12V71, ronsii, arcflash liked this post
  39. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    AJO, ARIZONA
    Posts
    3,924
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Non ethanol gas is available in Arizona, by the quart in hardware stores and places that sell small engine equipped power tools. I found an article or write-up somewhere several years ago about gas, the author said you can remove the ethanol using water, and it does make sense, water and alcohol are soluble, add water to the gas and shake it up good and set it where you can siphon the gas off the top of the alcohol/water mix. I haven't personally tried it but it sounds logical. There are also additives that claim to remove or neutralize the ethanol. The links below talk about an "ethanator", I had no luck finding one online, but it's not needed.

    https://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Ethanol-from-Gas

    https://sciencing.com/remove-ethanol...e-7830109.html
    Last edited by CAVEMANN; 02-18-2021 at 06:36 PM.
    IMPEACH BIDEN!
    NRA LIFE MEMBER

    UNITWELD 175 AMP 3 IN1 DC
    MIDSTATES 300 AMP AC MACHINE
    GOD HELP AMERICA!
    ďFreedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
    We didnít pass it to our children in the bloodstream".
    RONALD REAGAN

  40. Likes mcspeed liked this post
  41. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mount Tabor VT
    Posts
    7,624
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    I've heard a lot about the lubrication advantages of 2 stroke oil and a lot of people swear by it as a diesel fuel additive in pre-SCR engines. I believe there is probably some truth to it.
    I do have a snowmobile that had been in the shed three years. I needed to move it. I thought about all I'd have to go through to get a loader in there to move it. My friend was there. He asked: "Have you even tried to start it?" I knew better, but gave it ten yanks on the starter cord. It started! It ran fine, and I ran it around a bit before parking it back in the shed, who'd a thunk?

    I once had a VERY old couple as customers. They owned a fourth home nearby, they used a few weeks a year. They were wealthy. The 80 year old wife wanted a car of her own.
    They bought a 1989 Cutlass Supreme as a second car. It got very few miles, but sat in a garage with a leaky roof. When it was 10 years old, had a couple rust holes near the trunk lid, and at base of the windshield, the wife had died. The husband offered to sell it to me. I explained I didn't need the car, and the only reason I'd buy it was to resell it. What did he want for it? He answered that he paid $9000. he hadn't hurt the car, he wanted $9000.

    It sat several more years, until the husband died. Their daughter wanted to knock down the garage, and told me to take the car. "Get what you can for it, I don't care."

    I was astounded, I put a battery in it, it started & ran. I drove it home.

    I did spend maybe $2500 on brakes, tires, and countless other things. I sold it to my son's father in law at a loss. He gave it to his other daughter, a 29 year old college student. She wrecked it 3 months later.

    Long story, it can be hard to explain, but I've rarely been this lucky storing anything. A betting man would exercise a generator.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  42. Likes mcspeed liked this post
  43. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,781
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by CAVEMANN View Post
    Non ethanol gas is available in Arizona, by the quart in hardware stores and places that sell small engine equipped power tools. I found an article or write-up somewhere several years ago about gas, the author said you can remove the ethanol using water, and it does make sense, water and alcohol are soluble, add water to the gas and shake it up good and set it where you can siphon the gas off the top of the alcohol/water mix. I haven't personally tried it but it sounds logical. There are also additives that claim to remove or neutralize the ethanol. The links below talk about an "ethanator", I had no luck finding one online, but it's not needed.

    https://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Ethanol-from-Gas

    https://sciencing.com/remove-ethanol...e-7830109.html
    Interesting. We used to have ethanol free gas in the summer but I guess by now they figure most of the old cars that were prone to vapor lock are gone now and we now get it year round with ethanol. I did buy a quart of the stuff you described at Ace once for a gas blower but it was so expensive it would be cheaper to replace or rebuild the carb.
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  44. Likes CAVEMANN liked this post
  45. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    minnesota
    Posts
    2,058
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Generator Exercise

    Here in Minnesota non oxygenated gas is available as premium octane for off road and collector vehicles. If I was buying a small standby generator it would be a lp or natural gas to avoid fuel problems
    Millermatic 252
    millermatic 175
    miller 300 Thunderbolt
    lincoln ranger 250
    smith torches
    lots of bfh's
    If it dont fit get a bigger hammer

  46. Likes 12V71, Hobbytime liked this post

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Page generated in 1,627,918,492.15872 seconds with 14 queries