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Thread: Bird Nest

  1. #1
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    Bird Nest

    Millermatic 252 is now 10 years old. It has always been useless with .023 wire. I have four guns; A short one dedicated to .023, the stock one (M25) for .030 & .035, the big Bernard gun can run .035, but it usually runs Dual Shield .045, and a spool gun.

    Lately, it has taken to bird nesting with .035, and .045 also. I tried new tips & new liner, no improvement.

    There is a retired, formerly Miller authorized service man in the city. I took it to him. After an hour of fine tuning, it fouls less often. His theory is an invisible layer of rust on the wire.

    Anybody got suggections?
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  2. #2
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    Re: Bird Nest

    I've never heard of steel rust (iron oxide) to be invisible. To me, it's not clear with which wire it's birdnesting: the solid wires or the dual shield wires? Are you sure you're using the correct drive rollers? What is "fine tuning"? What new liner did you use? Does the gun that is experiencing the birdnesting have a removable contact tip holder/diffuser type of deal? If so, have you removed it to inspect that end of the mig gun?
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  3. #3
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Millermatic 252 is now 10 years old. It has always been useless with .023 wire. I have four guns; A short one dedicated to .023, the stock one (M25) for .030 & .035, the big Bernard gun can run .035, but it usually runs Dual Shield .045, and a spool gun.

    Lately, it has taken to bird nesting with .035, and .045 also. I tried new tips & new liner, no improvement.

    There is a retired, formerly Miller authorized service man in the city. I took it to him. After an hour of fine tuning, it fouls less often. His theory is an invisible layer of rust on the wire.

    Anybody got suggections?
    Do on use wire lube? I did that for a while and all it did was make the liner gummy.

    And go with a bigger contact tip. Sometimes debris packs up behind it.

    That's all I got. Good luck.
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Did you replace the wire?. Check inlet guide, new drive rolls come with one. Check drive roll alignment, one roll has an adjustment screw, I believe it's the bottom one. Spool tension could be an issue. How are your drive rolls? I'm on probably my 3 or 4 set of .035 rolls on mine but I have ran about 40-50 44 lb spools thru mine. I use a bernard q-300 gun, mainly for duty cycle, but that shouldn't matter.

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    Re: Bird Nest

    In addition, did you use a miller liner or aftermarket? Ive heard the aftermarket liners, tips, and other consumables can be problematic.

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    Re: Bird Nest


    Willie B


    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Anybody got suggections?
    Did the problem start with a fresh roll of wire?


    Opus



    .

  10. #7
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    Re: Bird Nest

    All the previous comments are spot on....check the tension on the spool, on the wire feed rollers and alignment. The rollers could be worn, but I've also seen folks accidentally have one or both reversed (for those with two sizes) that led to wire slippage.

    I've got a decent pile of new rollers, alignment guides, etc if you want to try replacing any of those inexpensively....I bought a big box of stuff at an auction to get a couple of things I really wanted.
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    I've never heard of steel rust (iron oxide) to be invisible. To me, it's not clear with which wire it's birdnesting: the solid wires or the dual shield wires? Are you sure you're using the correct drive rollers? What is "fine tuning"? What new liner did you use? Does the gun that is experiencing the birdnesting have a removable contact tip holder/diffuser type of deal? If so, have you removed it to inspect that end of the mig gun?
    YES, yes, yes & yes. The wire at the moment is hard 70 series Maine Oxy branded. It bird nests with all wires, all guns. Logic told me it had to be an alignment issue. The service guy fussed with that several minute changes.

    I have many rollers & recheck the Miller directives of roller variety. I, and several others have confirmed rollers are correct.
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    Do on use wire lube? I did that for a while and all it did was make the liner gummy.

    And go with a bigger contact tip. Sometimes debris packs up behind it.

    That's all I got. Good luck.
    The bigger contact tip I'll need some guidance. .045 when .035 sticks? If slightly larger tips are available, I don't know of them.

    I have considered lube. I'm not aware of a lube that won't make matters worse. Haven't tried any lube.

    It occurs that I can run any wire through any gun without bird nest. Only when an arc is involved does the problem manifest.

    I think stickout length, I try longer: no change.

    I could fill a trash can with the new liners I have installed: NO CHANGE!
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Check the wire you pull from the gun when you have these issues. I had an Esab 250 that had a bad connection to the gun connection block on the front of the machine and sent most of the weld current through the wire rather than the gun cable, It made small burns on the wire that were very hard to see and those burns would stick it tight in the contact tip.

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    Re: Bird Nest

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    The bigger contact tip I'll need some guidance. .045 when .035 sticks? If slightly larger tips are available, I don't know of them.

    I have considered lube. I'm not aware of a lube that won't make matters worse. Haven't tried any lube.

    It occurs that I can run any wire through any gun without bird nest. Only when an arc is involved does the problem manifest.

    I think stickout length, I try longer: no change.

    I could fill a trash can with the new liners I have installed: NO CHANGE!
    A few possible ideas.

    Have you recently started welding hotter? I find I can weld in short circuit for a week on the one tip, as soon as I get into spray with C20 gas with .035 wire i'll go through 2-3 tips a day, I'm guessing something to do with the wire heating up and expanding slightly, and the copper coating getting soft and dragging on the tip, clogging up the tip and making it tight on the wire, when this happens you can feel the resistance on the wire when unscrewing the old tip, sometimes filing out the tip with a set of tip cleaners helps, but it always seems to come back.

    I've had it before where the axle the drive roller runs on is bent slightly bent causing birds nest's.

    a bigger tip does help, when running in spray I almost always run a size up on the tip, so .045 tip with .035 wire, and depending on the wire I may go even more then that, running .045 B3 chro-moly wire I'll run a .080 (2mm) tip.

    It could also just be a case of the feeder is old and worn and parts need replacing, over time things shift, and if the wire guides don't line up perfectly with both the drive rolls and the gun it will birds nest no matter what you do, I find the design of the feeder plays a big part, LN25's (both the standard and pro models) have excellent wire guides that are a duckbill shape and get right into the drive rolls so there's a very short amount of unsupported wire, LN25's don't tend to birds nest unless running .035 or smaller wire with the tension cranked right down and a huge kink in the whip or a welded together tip.

  16. #12
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    The bigger contact tip I'll need some guidance. .045 when .035 sticks? If slightly larger tips are available, I don't know of them.

    I have considered lube. I'm not aware of a lube that won't make matters worse. Haven't tried any lube.

    It occurs that I can run any wire through any gun without bird nest. Only when an arc is involved does the problem manifest.

    I think stickout length, I try longer: no change.

    I could fill a trash can with the new liners I have installed: NO CHANGE!
    Yeah, lube sucks. Blowing them out is useless too.

    So a .035 wire try a .045 contact tip. Can't hurt to try. Helped me out when I had the gummy liner issue.

    Also does the liner make it all the way up to the contact tip retainer beyond the neck? Another thing is make sure the liner does not touch a drive wheel shorting out to the arc to the wheel. 1/16th" gap should be all you need IMO.
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Quote Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO View Post

    Willie B




    Did the problem start with a fresh roll of wire?


    Opus



    .
    Opus;

    The problem started 10 years ago, first roll of .023. Then, progressively, .030, .045 Dual Shield, and now, half way through a 32 LB roll of .035 hard wire. The roll is a copper colored 70 series. I presume with a thin coating of copper. I can see a tint of oxidation, but nothing I can feel sliding it through my fingers.

    The welder repair guy snipped off multiple pieces, left them beside the test piece. He tested MIG without gas. He picked up the pieces, pointed out spatter on them. I am not convinced.
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Is your break working properly? Is the hole on the reel lining up with the button on the shaft? Birdnesting shouldn't occur unless the reel keeps moving when the feed stops. Is there any arcing/loose connectors inside the machine? Is your tension adjusted properly, so it slips, not stop.

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    Re: Bird Nest

    In the end, you're going to have to check everything, since you have the machine and we don't have any pics/videos. Remember, it's always something you don't think of, that is the actual culprit. If I were you, I'd start by lowering the pressure on the drive roller/follower, and place my cellphone in spot where it can record the drive system to see what's going on.
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Is there any small, and I mean almost microscopic shavings below the drive wheels? If the spool drag is correct, which needs to be verified, the inlet guide and rolls would be next suspect along with roll tension. A mm252 is one of the best feeding mig machines I have ever used so something should stand out. The only issues I have had were when feeding SS hard wire. That usually just involved a different tension setting on the drive rolls.

  22. #17
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    Is there any small, and I mean almost microscopic shavings below the drive wheels? If the spool drag is correct, which needs to be verified, the inlet guide and rolls would be next suspect along with roll tension. A mm252 is one of the best feeding mig machines I have ever used so something should stand out. The only issues I have had were when feeding SS hard wire. That usually just involved a different tension setting on the drive rolls.
    I don't know. Build up would have been cleared in all the changes of rolls, opening the rolls, & replacing liner twice. Adjusting alignment 15 times.
    I am surprised that there appears to be no adjustment for the top roller.

    When we first addressed alignment, I felt based on eyeball line there was a bit of misalignment with the liner & the bottom roller. that has been corrected.
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  23. #18
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Bottom roll has the adjustment. It's possible that the top cradle is worn causing misalignment.

  24. #19
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    Re: Bird Nest

    I haven't yet extensively used it since the service man worked on it. He experienced several bird nests he blamed on wire. I'll update when I try it.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: Bird Nest

    Willie, our boiler shop would bring 50 or more tips at a time to the machine shop for us to drill out, I think they were using .045 wire & we would drill them to 1/16 or 5/64 if we ran out of 1/16 bits, but they ran their feeders on buggo's for hours & hours on end. I don't have anything to offer other than check alignment. You didn't mention where it was birdnesting though, when I've had that issue it's always been one of the straight forward issues. One other thing I had occur once was the liner for some reason had kicked off a little off center in the gun & I don't know why, I could see it if the liner was a little short, but I cut mine to compress just slightly.
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    Re: Bird Nest

    I'm sort of with the guys that are looking at issues with the tip.

  28. #22
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Bottom drive roll should line up perfect with the wire. the top presser roll assembly
    Floats on its axle. Center it on the wire then engage the pressure.
    After a bird nest, did you pull the wire back out of the gun and look at it.
    Is it straight and have a bunch of wavy bends?
    If you have wavy bends the wire is getting hot at the drive and the wire is going soft.
    The cause of this is an easy fix. The Aluminum drive assembly where the gun plugs in
    has a thin oxide coating. Use a brake hone or stick with sand paper and drill to clean to bright metal. The buff miggun power pin. wash with circuit cleaner and install quickly. Other feeding problems are clogged inlet guide or damage tip.
    Clogged inlet guide causes drive rolls to slip.
    When the drive housing gets "dirty" The weld current is split between the weld wire and the power pin weld circuit to the tip. On some welders current is transferred to the wire at the drive rolls before the power pin. wire softens because of the current in the wire. Then if the catches in the gun or stubs on the work.
    Most of the time it is the bends that catch at the tip.
    Next time it bird nests, pull the wire from the gun and look at it and feel it.
    Let me know if this helps.

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  30. #23
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    Re: Bird Nest


    Willie B


    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    . . . The problem started 10 years ago . . . I am not convinced.
    You: and the greater Forum - have covered everything I can suggest -
    with these exception . . .

    shovelon - beat me to all . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    . . . lube sucks . . .

    . . . .035 wire try a .045 contact tip. Can't hurt to try.
    Helped me out when I had the gummy liner issue.

    Also does the liner make it all the way up to the contact tip retainer
    beyond the neck? *

    Another thing is make sure the liner does not touch a drive wheel
    shorting out to the arc to the wheel. 1/16th" gap should
    be all you need IMO. **
    * Few, know how to install a new liner - to prevent this . . . ***

    ** 'Shorting out' is an issue - but excessive gap from the rollers to
    the 'tapered receiver snout' is an evasive issue . . .

    I modify 'receiver snouts' to less than a 1/32nd. This cured my issue;
    may not be true - for you . . .

    The downside: it's a Brain Board Issue - When you dump the trigger,
    the heat goes off - but the feed continues . . . for micro-moments . . .

    The upside: Dirty Contacts - I would clean every contact in your entire
    weld circuit - you know issues 'Bad Juice' can produce . . .

    This especially includes - Cannon Plugs and Female Spades couplings . . .

    hth


    Opus



    ps - *** is an 'Old Post' topic . . .



    .


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  32. #24
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Does it bird nest with the tip removed?

  33. #25
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    Re: Bird Nest

    Quote Originally Posted by Weldordie View Post
    Does it bird nest with the tip removed?
    No, and it does not with the tip on until you strike an arc. With bigger wires (.035) it welds a while without a problem, squeeze the trigger, nothing happens.
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