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Thread: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon!

  1. #26
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    fantastic! thanks for the info and advice. yea I am on the fence about "paying" for a repair, which is why I am hoping to diagnose it to the best of my ability in the short term future. I still have the Linde MIG welder and just to get my "jollies" I fired it up today and laid down some welds on some junk scrap steel. That was rewarding.

    As for the TIG issue, I spent about an hour this morning reading through online issues and then also looked through more electrical diagrams, doing my best to understand how it all works. I am about halfway sure about most of what I read. So when I came home after work today, I started investigating more. I was surprised to find a loose terminal on the master on/off switch, at what is labeled #3 on the back of the switch. The missing chunk of plastic by the terminal was attached, but splintered off just before I took the photo.... so the hole was not there until just earlier this afternoon, or else I would have certainly spotted the damaged switch housing earlier. As I disconnected the terminal I noticed some old (brown colored) glue where it looks like a repair was done some time ago.
    Check this out:

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    [/url]

    [/url]


    [/url]






    So, I am wondering if this issue is the source of one of the problems. It certainly needs to be repaired (by a replacement switch) but I am not sure if this is "the smoking gun" which would be causing ALL of the issues.

    I am going to try to find a replacement switch with the proper amp/volt rating online, and I will ask them tomorrow when I am at the welding supply. I'll see what I find for parts, and then continue the diagnosis.

    The technical specs on the switch are:
    Bryant brand
    40A 600V 5HP 250V






    Also, I will most likely be making a brand new thread/post so that it will get some fresh eyes, and nobody will have to read through the above discussion of buying components and whatnot.

    Last edited by IROCZman15; 06-24-2021 at 10:07 PM.

  2. #27
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    Quote Originally Posted by IROCZman15 View Post
    Had a chance after work today to call Miller Tech Support on the phone. They were very friendly, but were not able to really dig into much troubleshooting with a model/serial number this old. i was told that Miller had limited info because during this time the engineers were doing a things a variety of ways before standardizing things better. The tech had me check ohms resistance on the upper left terminals of the circuit board, which showed about 1.3 ohms resistance. We also switched those wires and had the same results. I spent a good 15 minutes poking my head and fingers all around inside the guts of the machine making sure connections seemed good, and checking terminals for tightness. I had done some research on here, and learned that occasionally people have had success in taking apart the insides of the "range/polarity switch" and cleaning the contacts. So I did this, and was super excited to see that there was gunk and junk that needed to be cleaned off.

    Dirty:


    Cleaned up:


    Sadly, once everything was cleaned and reassembled, not only was I not not able to weld aluminum, but I can't weld anything. The tungsten/torch now only produces an incredibly weak, dismal, skinny speck of a blue electricity at times, and usually it does not produce any electricity at all. It made an electric noise, not the usual sizzle noise, but more of a frequency "tone". To add insult to injury, I smelled electrical burning and looked over to see a small puff of smoke coming out of the front of the machine, right where the "electrode/gas out" torch hose is. Turned everything off, and unplugged the machine.

    smoke looked like it was coming from here and also there was a touch of soot and a smokey electrical burning smell to the soot:



    I am currently really bummed out and pretty defeated. Had a working machine for steel and all I was hoping to do was to get it to weld aluminum too. Sadly, things went backwards, and now nothing works. Now I am trying to learn electrical schematics (which is way over my head) to rectify this. Kinda hoping this is fixable; spent a LOT of money on parts for the welder, gas cylinders, an entire electrical sub panel in the garage, and now I am unsure what to even do next. I have a limited knowledge of electronics, but am pretty quick to learn ( I wire and build police cars for a job).

    What about a Miller Welding repair technician or shop? I went on the Miller website and it pulled up the local shop 4.4 miles away, but instead of "tech service" it is listed under "sales". I also can NOT afford an expensive repair bill or someone just throwing parts at the machine in hoped of getting it running. Would love to fix it as I had started to get excited for all these upcoming welding projects I could tackle in the nearby future. Very bummed out at the moment.

    misc pics:


    what is this and what does the button do. If i press the button in, it does not stay in, so what is the purpose of the button/device?


    That black thing is a contactor and the "button" is just a way to energize it without powering the coil that normally turns on the contactor. If it does not depress on its own you might not have coil voltage or the coil is not good.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  3. #28
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    excellent, thanks for the reply. Good to know

    I went over to the two local welding supply places today and brought the broken switch. I knew in advance they would not have it in stock, but I was hoping to hear advice about how to acquire one. I also went to an electrical supply store nearby, and all 3 places were unable to come up with a proper replacement that I could buy locally. Switch must be 40 amps 600 volts single-throw double-pole as seen in the photos above. I came home and called Miller to check and see that the busted switch I was holding matched their part numbers and how to order it. I was unsure if the Bryant switch in my hands was a replacement switch that might have been put in the machine, or if it came this way when new. Surprisingly, the Bryant switch I have is the original factory switch, and Miller actually still sells the switch I need, using Part # 124511 (which matches the part number in the Miller manual you guys provided to me on page #1) but they said I would have to order it through a Miller Distributor. However, I searched around online and it looks like I can get it shipped to my house if I buy it online elsewhere, and it is not a knockoff switch either.

    Links:
    1 https://www.amazon.com/124511-Miller.../dp/B004HE9XHQ
    or
    2. https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/ei...UNDEF:X:124511
    or
    3. https://www.ebay.com/itm/19387742770...MaAsfaEALw_wcB

    So that is a small success in finding the proper switch. I'll order one of those in the coming days and install it when it arrives.

    I also brought a sample of the (very embarrassing) aluminum test-welding I had tried to do, to see if the guys at the welding supply shops had any advice. Everyone agreed that something is wrong with the machine in AC mode, and it is not operator error causing the welding problems. I was told that there is a guy named Ken Wellington who is about an hour away from me in northern New Jersey who is pretty familiar with the "older welding machines" and his company is "Orion Equipment Service" (website: http://www.orionequipmentservices.com/ ) . If I get to the point where I am out of troubleshooting ideas (after replacing the on/off switch) I will probably give him a call or send an email over. In the meantime, if anyone has any suggestions, feel free to keep em coming.

    Any particular switch from that list of 3 above that I should buy; they all should be exactly the same, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask you pros before I order one.

  4. #29
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    Well, I ordered the switch and got it last week finally. Just got a chance to install it. Machine works, power comes on and off. It seems to be doing its normal power when in DCneg mode on mild steel. It got a little temperamental after a moment, and all of a sudden I smelled a "hot electrical smell" while noticing that I was not getting gas flow at the torch. The burning electrical smell was coming from the port on the machine where the gas flow and torch plug into. I worked the foot pedal a few times and noticed that the gas is escaping at the joint, and I could feel it rushing out with my hand. The port was also hot to the touch on the outside of the machine. Not happy. I am assuming an O-ring or gasket that seals the gas flow between the machine and the torch hose has been heated and destroyed or gone missing; there was no-O ring that I could seen in there when I took a look.

    Questions:
    - There should be an O-ring in there to seal the gas flow right?
    - Anyone know if it is a common size, or should I plan on calling Miller tech-help to ask them?

    - Despite the gas rushing out at this failed junction, I think its unlikely that the burning electrical smell and hot torch input plug/port are normal. Can someone explain to me how the power travels among the machine, this port, and the torch. I understand it is DC negative, but if this O-ring is missing, and the torch I bought has a poorly built connection that also may not seat onto the electrical part of the machine, that would be a problem right? When i ordered the torch, it was very very slightly too large to fit into the port, despite being made for this machine. I contacted the seller, and we agreed that I could file down the male plug-in part of the torch with a hand file to get it to fit. I did this and it fit just fine and worked great, but I am wondering now, if this is problematic when combined with the missing O-ring.






    FYI; the Linde MIG welder is working great. I have used it for a bunch of stuff and have had more than a couple friends come by to use it and fix their stuff. Bought a new work clamp for it but otherwise it is working fantastic. !!

  5. #30
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    Decide to investigate the non-gas flow issue, Tried to blow through the hose with my mouth, only to be surprised that the hose was blocked. Could not move air from either end. Decided to take apart the hose's ends and found that part of the hose end's metal had turned molten and melted the gas-flow orifice closed! What in the heck!?!? This was probably the electrical/rubber burning smell I smelled coming from the port/connection. WOW












    So, that hose is cooked, no salvaging that. But what caused this?!?! I don't want to buy a new hose and have it melt down again? could there be a chance that the above mentioned damaged on/off switch was causing improper electrical flow to the machine and it melted the inner aprt of that hose fitting because it had either too much negative or too much positive current?

  6. #31
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    I have a syncrowave 180 that has a similar torch set up with gas through the dinse fitting. Its about 20 years old, and never had any problems with it. I like that I can change over to stick welding quickly. Yours looks like the hose fitting to the dinse connector was loose and arced across the connection. The fitting should seat 2 brass faces into each other, I don't think there is an
    O-ring in that connection. All the current goes through that connection so it need to be tight. Replacement hoses are available for that . What make of torch is that Most of the Millers are Weldcraft I think. You might want to get a Flow meter cup for checking gas flow at the torch just to be sure. I have used Orion equipment services through my local Prax Air in Dover, NJ. and have been happy with their work on my foot pedal for my old Airco. My first guess on the aluminum would have been gas, but a bad torch connection will make things go weird too. I think your getting closer.


    best of luck
    Airco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square wave
    Miller Synchrowave 180 sd
    Miller Econo Twin HF
    Lincoln 210 MP
    Dayton 225 ac/dc
    Victor torches
    Snap-On YA-212
    Lotos Cut60D

  7. #32
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    Have you considered shortening the hose at least while you troubleshoot the problem? Cut the ferrule off , cut the hose. cut the burnt end off the cable, adjust the length of the cable and pull it as far out of the hose as you can and reattach it to the fitting, pull the hose onto the fitting and clamp. You got nothing to lose but your time, the hose is junk anyway.
    ---Meltedmetal

  8. #33
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    Here are some pictures of my miller torch.

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    You can purchase the hose separate from the torch. Its about half the cost of the torch, but you can often find deals on the internet. BTW when I opened mine up to take a picture, I found my dinse connection was only finger tight. https://www.weldingweb.com/images/smilies/eek.gif
    Airco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square wave
    Miller Synchrowave 180 sd
    Miller Econo Twin HF
    Lincoln 210 MP
    Dayton 225 ac/dc
    Victor torches
    Snap-On YA-212
    Lotos Cut60D

  9. #34
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    u can bypass the gas to welder, to this in the link, just clamp your - or + lead to it anyway u like. i use my rod stinger
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/19054369146...Cclp%3A2334524

  10. #35
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    this is awesome help guys; huge thank you, I very much appreciate it. I am on a quest to get everything figured out, even if it takes a while.

    The bypass is interesting, I had no idea about that, I might give it a shot since it is a cheap method to help troubleshoot things while I troubleshoot things! ha!!

    I reached out to the ebay seller to see if he is willing so sell me a replacement hose, maybe at a reduced cost, because the day i got the torch+hose from him, I checked it and it would not plug in, it was too fat in diameter but only by a small amount. At that time he offered that I could return it and he would send me a new one, OR I could file it down to fit. We decided to try filing it down but he still expressed that he would do whatever he could to make it right if needed. It does appear my torch is fine, so hopefully I can get a hose. OR, as mentioned above, I could get the fittings to re-make my hose and it would just wind up a little bit shorter. I don't have a crimper tool in that style, so I would have to source one out or ask some friends/neighbors.

    allbrighttree. that sounds like exactly what I think might have occurred. A loose connection inside the brass dinse fitting caused an arc. I fully agree. Even when I twisted the dinse in It was able to spin with a finger touch, it never got "snug". I do indeed want to buy a gas cup, just planned on getting one in the future. Glad to hear that Orion repair is a good place, I am hoping it does not come to me having to drop off the welder for repair, as I am like most of you guys, and I enjoy troubleshooting, repairs, and successes that come from the process. I see you are in Northern NJ and have been to Praxair in Dover also. That has been my go to shop for a few years, otherwise I have been to the County Welding Supply over on Wharton. I live in Roxbury.
    _ This is the torch and hose I bought back in April
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/323565468064?var=512590313424
    With the 35-70 dinse.
    If the ebay link doesn't work, this is the title of the item: 17 Series 150 A Air Cooled TIG Torch INLINE Gas Connector- Welders with solenoid on ebay.

  11. #36
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    Quote Originally Posted by IROCZman15 View Post
    I could get the fittings to re-make my hose and it would just wind up a little bit shorter. I don't have a crimper tool in that style, so I would have to source one out or ask some friends/neighbors.
    The pressure in that hose is likely only a few psi unless your torch has a valve even then it not likely to rise over 50 psi with the valve closed. If your careful you could re-use the existing fittings and secure the hose with a hose clamp from the auto parts store. It depends how much time you have to spend.
    ---Meltedmetal

  12. #37
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    USAWELD :

    Just the cable: SUPER-FLEX POWER CABLE FOR 9 & 17 SERIES AIR-COOLED TIG TORCHES Product # 1512PCSF

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    The whole torch :

    17 SERIES (150A) AIR-COOLED TORCH W/35 DINSE POWER CONNECTION & FLOW THRU GAS
    Product # 1712FT-35D

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    Joe at Praxair in Dover never really has any tig torches in stock, Matt at County usually has Miller torches in stock(weldcraft I think?) but aren't cheap. If you have time you should go to the new "All gas welding supply" in Andover/Newton on RT206, they carry a full line of Miller, Lincoln, and CK torches and parts. They also have good prices on gases, and tanks. The really good part is they are open from 8-12 on saturdays. Praxair has never been open Saturdays , County used to be , but last time I went they weren't(about a year ago).

    All Gas the store :

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    Roxbury ? I work at a factory in Flanders, by the Shop-Rite.

    small world.

    best of luck
    Last edited by albrightree; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:08 AM.
    Airco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square wave
    Miller Synchrowave 180 sd
    Miller Econo Twin HF
    Lincoln 210 MP
    Dayton 225 ac/dc
    Victor torches
    Snap-On YA-212
    Lotos Cut60D

  13. #38
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    awesome thank you! I am going to dig into this more next week. Work has been hectic recently and tonight I went to Island Dragway to watch Team Texas from Street Outlaws NoPrep Kings do some 8th mile testing. Tomorrow morning I leave for a big autocross racing event I am competing in, way out in Pennsylvania and i won't be home until late Sunday. I am super thankful to learn of that welding place up in newton, but I am afraid I will spend a fortune there if I go there without a game-plan/list. Nonetheless, thanks, I will be getting back to the welder stuff next week, for sure.

  14. #39
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    So, the original ebay seller was kind enough to send me a new hose mostly because from day-1 when i got the hose/dinse/torch setup, it was unwilling to go into the machine without some hand filing. Might have made the connection weak or unsteady. So the seller sent me a new hose and dinse connector.

    and

    THE WELDER IS BACK IN ACTION! I can TIG weld steel and it is working exactly as it was before. DC neg and DC positive is working properly; however still, jut as before, no luck getting it to work with Aluminum in AC mode. So, i am going to enjoy doing steel TIG practice for a while longer, and maybe I will eventually get the AC mode working, and maybe I will have to have the welder looked at by a professional repair shop like Orion.

    I definitely DO want to stop by that All Gas welding supply store in Dover, thats on my list !

    The other thing i want to do/buy is a tig welding cart. I had originally thought about building my own, but with race season in full swing and house projects, work, etc I might be better off buying a cheap cart and then modifying it if needed. I would like to spend less than $100 for a working TIG cart. I have an 80 cf argon tank. I do not think its safe to haev the heavy welder on an angle, so I prefer the flat mount style. I like the low-profile style cart better, because I have shelves at 44" above where the welders are in the garage. I also do not like the thought of having a top-heavy setup if I am wheeling it around the garage. The Miller EconoTig measures 13" across, 23" deep, and 18" tall. So, it is pretty big. I did some searching online and on this forum for "miller econotig cart" and didn't find much because this is a 20+ year old welder.

    My first choice was this one: https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-lo...=google&wv=3.1
    and even though the welder is dimensionally bigger than the top platform, I could make a platform on top of the existing one that will hold the big econotig. Yet, it also doesn't have hooks, or extras on it.



    Here are a few other possible choices, but most are either two expensive or do not have the features i want:

    https://www.weldingoutfitter.com/pro...BoCTr8QAvD_BwE


    https://www.usasafety.com/mig-invert...hoCBuUQAvD_BwE

  15. #40
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    Re: New here, acquired two old (working) welders, hoping to put them into action soon

    There's a new Harbor freight in Mansfield between the walmart, and the Shop-Rite. Not too far out of the way when going to Island Dragway. I'm on the other side of the Great Meadow in Townsbury, I can hear you guys ripping it up at night when I'm working outside. Sounds like fun.

    BTW All Gas is in ANdover NJ(Newton Rt 206) not Dover(Rockaway)

    Before you send your unit out for repair , try buying some known good 6061 aluminum from Mcmaster carr or Grainger , some of the stuff you get at Home Depot or hardware store just doesn't want to weld.

    Good luck
    Airco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square wave
    Miller Synchrowave 180 sd
    Miller Econo Twin HF
    Lincoln 210 MP
    Dayton 225 ac/dc
    Victor torches
    Snap-On YA-212
    Lotos Cut60D

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