Tig vs multi-process Mig/Tig/Stick

[FlyFishn]

More thinking on machines here...

The processes I have now are stick and flux core. To be honest, I don't think there is anything that I would have previously welded with flux core that I wouldn't prefer to run stick on today. I have a lot more flexibility and a lot more capacity between higher available amps and rod selection with stick than I would ever have with flux core.

To that point - what I am looking at Tig for is aluminum, specifically. That doesn't mean I can't run other metals, but if all I was going to weld was steel I would be content with what I have (and I can do aluminum with stick, its just not a preferable process for obvious reasons).

With another machine on the horizon that will do aluminum Tig - I for sure need a machine that will run AC.

Is there any merit to the multi-process machines? Like the MTS225 and MTS275 from Everlast? They will both run AC Tig/Stick along with Mig.

As far as processes for me to have Mig is at the bottom of the list, but having run the flux core I have for the past ~20 years I'd like to have a more capable gun process. However, if going that way short-changes too much on Tig then I don't think it would be justified to go the all-in-one route.

I'm not too concerned with the theory of having everything in 1 box being the sole machine and if 1 process goes down everything goes down. Thats what I got my stick welder for. But it doesn't do tig and if a tig machine goes down its a sole machine with no backup. So what difference does it make if it has stick and mig functions also? If those go down I still have the stick machine - and if I am running those processes its probably on steel which I can run on the stick machine. If I am on a weldment that requires tig and that machine goes down I don't have a backup - right now anyway. So whether or not I loose 2 other processes in the tig box or not is kind of a moot point in my view at the moment.

[M J D]

???????

[metalmeltr]

It seems as if you are trying to sell yourself on the Multi process machine. I would say go for it. Modern multi process machines have made great strides in reliability compared to when they first came out. The whole idea of losing the ability to weld anything of your only machine goes down seems to be a holdover from the early multi process machines that were largely unreliable.

[shovelon]

If you want to tig alum, then buy a really nice AC/DC tig machine. And also a really nice gas mig machine. Sorry but I would not put all my eggs in one basket(multiprocess).

But if that is what you want, get one.

[Oscar]

Is there any merit to the multi-process machines? Like the MTS225 and MTS275 from Everlast? They will both run AC Tig/Stick along with Mig.

Yes, but I agree with shovelon. Get two machines. One really good MIG and one really good TIG. But it seems reading between the lines, your mind is very likely already made up. If you go AC/DC 3-in-1, spring for the Multimatic 255.

[Louie1961]

Multimatic 255 is DC only Oscar... multimatic 220 is the AC /DC machine but it doesn't do pulse mig, and you couldn't pay me to own an everlast. Lots of unhappy campers as a result of everlast. Do a bit of searching.

[ttoks]

for this I think you should go down the route of two machines, a nice AC/DC TIG/stick machine and a MIG if MIG is even on your radar.

If you don't do enough volume to warrant a MIG, then there is no point going for a compromise to get a machine that does AC/DC TIG, stick and MIG, if you do enough volume to warrant a standalone MIG then you'll be wanting something bigger than the hobby level multi process machines can offer (I'm not counting things like a lincoln V-350 or Miller XMT here as they are not your typical hobby level multi process machines)

[Oscar]

Multimatic 255 is DC only Oscar... multimatic 220 is the AC /DC machine but it doesn't do pulse mig, and you couldn't pay me to own an everlast. Lots of unhappy campers as a result of everlast. Do a bit of searching.

Yeap, that's the one I was thinking of. Forgot the 255 is DC only. The Multimatic 220 it is then. FlyFishin doesn't need pulse, so it would fit his needs. I concur about everlast.

[Kelvin]

I would get a decent AC/DC tig machine, as others have said. Since you want it mainly for aluminum, you're going to want as much power as you can afford. Aluminum takes a lot of heat. This raises the price of a decent tig machine enough on its own without throwing in the additional expense of having it do everything else including making your coffee. If and when a multi-process machine goes down, it's probably going to be more difficult/expensive to diagnose and fix, than a single-purpose machine, as well, due to its complexity.

You said "If it goes down, no big deal since I have other welding machines." The flipside of that argument is "It's probably going to be MORE LIKELY to go down than a conventional one-process TIG welder (especially a transformer-type)" and "It's probably not going to do as good a job on aluminum tig as a single-purpose machine" -- since there are trade-offs that machine manufacturers have to make (and corners that they can cut) in order to a) make a machine that "does it all" and b) make it affordable.

When things sound too good to be true, they generally are. After getting burned too many times trying to get more for my money, I now go by the "buy once, cry once" principle when buying this stuff. If you want an aluminum tig welder, buy an aluminum tig welder, not something that claims to "do it all."

[wb4rt]

I would get a decent AC/DC tig machine, as others have said. Since you want it mainly for aluminum, you're going to want as much power as you can afford. Aluminum takes a lot of heat. This raises the price of a decent tig machine enough on its own without throwing in the additional expense of having it do everything else including making your coffee. If and when a multi-process machine goes down, it's probably going to be more difficult/expensive to diagnose and fix, than a single-purpose machine, as well, due to its complexity.

You said "If it goes down, no big deal since I have other welding machines." The flipside of that argument is "It's probably going to be MORE LIKELY to go down than a conventional one-process TIG welder (especially a transformer-type)" and "It's probably not going to do as good a job on aluminum tig as a single-purpose machine" -- since there are trade-offs that machine manufacturers have to make (and corners that they can cut) in order to a) make a machine that "does it all" and b) make it affordable.

When things sound too good to be true, they generally are. After getting burned too many times trying to get more for my money, I now go by the "buy once, cry once" principle when buying this stuff. If you want an aluminum tig welder, buy an aluminum tig welder, not something that claims to "do it all."

I agree 100% with Kelvin. Don’t overlook a good used AC/DC TIG machine. Parts and consumables are easier to find and will be available much longer. Also HF start is better (in my opinion).

Other features can lower the learning curve.

Remember materials, consumables, time to learn, tools, space, etc. are the same so spending a little more up front is a one-time cost.

[acourtjester]

If you looking at a multi-process machine with the thought if part A fails I can still use part B not true. Many of the operation inside are shared, if its down its totally down. 2 machines is the only way to have a backup.

[G-ManBart]

You asked if there is merit to the multi-process machines....sure, but only you can decide if they make the most sense for you.

A while back a buddy of mine had a stick welder and a MIG, but wanted to add a TIG and a plasma cutter without taking up more space in his shop which is packed.

He decided to upgrade to a better MIG that would do almost all of his steel work, sold the stick welder, and bought a TIG/stick/plasma machine for a gain in capability with no real loss of space in the shop. The multi-process machine made all the sense for him....and he's not welding for a living, so if something breaks, it's not the end of the world.

I want two (or three) of everything so I never have to worry....lol.

[FlyFishn]

Yes, but I agree with shovelon. Get two machines. One really good MIG and one really good TIG. But it seems reading between the lines, your mind is very likely already made up. If you go AC/DC 3-in-1, spring for the Multimatic 255.

I haven't made up my mind yet. Thats why I made the thread. I would LIKE to, but there is a difference between "like" and "better route". The primary concern is aluminum Tig. The "like" would be Mig also. But Mig can be sacrificed if it is justified with better Aluminum Tig - I don't "need" Mig.

What I was in need of before was good stick. I have everything I need for stick with the round top. Yea, it doesn't have arcforce etc but I don't need it either. I am more than happy with its performance for what I weld - and am content with everything it does well enough that I don't need my flux core. I haven't put it back together since I got the round top restored. I may at some point, but I don't need it - I'm fine on stick there.

you couldn't pay me to own an everlast. Lots of unhappy campers as a result of everlast. Do a bit of searching.

I've heard the bad. Its like Harbor Freight - you get a few horror stories but there are still a batch of people that have good results and are content with the things that aren't great. So I take everything with a grain of salt. I think it was ESAB maybe that is a "sister company" to Everlast, the home office addresses are 2 different units in the same building.

I would get a decent AC/DC tig machine, as others have said. Since you want it mainly for aluminum, you're going to want as much power as you can afford. Aluminum takes a lot of heat. This raises the price of a decent tig machine enough on its own without throwing in the additional expense of having it do everything else including making your coffee. If and when a multi-process machine goes down, it's probably going to be more difficult/expensive to diagnose and fix, than a single-purpose machine, as well, due to its complexity.

You said "If it goes down, no big deal since I have other welding machines." The flipside of that argument is "It's probably going to be MORE LIKELY to go down than a conventional one-process TIG welder (especially a transformer-type)" and "It's probably not going to do as good a job on aluminum tig as a single-purpose machine" -- since there are trade-offs that machine manufacturers have to make (and corners that they can cut) in order to a) make a machine that "does it all" and b) make it affordable.

When things sound too good to be true, they generally are. After getting burned too many times trying to get more for my money, I now go by the "buy once, cry once" principle when buying this stuff. If you want an aluminum tig welder, buy an aluminum tig welder, not something that claims to "do it all."

Thanks for the thoughts.

As to the multiprocess going down on one process and not the others - I am aware if the machine "goes down" it all "goes down". That was why I got the round top - it was an old tank that likely won't go down so if another machine does I have the round top as my fall-back position. That will work except for instances Tig is required. I do have O/A also - I suppose I could beef up that set up as my fall-back position for Tig.

On the subject of aluminum - I think the 200 amp mark is about minimum for a decent aluminum Tig. If that is the running amperage that might mean a machine in the upper 200's to 300 amps to get a better duty cycle down around 200 amps. Then the question is at that amperage do I loose anything on the low end for light gauge sheet metal work?

Lots of replies - I've read through them, don't have the time at the moment to reply to everything. Maybe later or tomorrow. Good stuff though. Lots of food for thought here with the group.

[Oscar]

I want two (or three) of everything so I never have to worry....lol.

Bingo! The only thing I don't have two of is a plasma cutter. unless you count the O-A setup. Or the metal chop saw. Or the abrasive saw. Or the band saw.

[FlyFishn]

Bingo! The only thing I don't have two of is a plasma cutter. unless you count the O-A setup. Or the metal chop saw. Or the abrasive saw. Or the band saw.

Unless you are talking a CNC plasma then yea I'd consider O/A cutting a back up to plasma.

There was a fab shop I spent some time with back in high school as part of a program we did for expanding the classes horizons with different industries. I forget the name of the place now. Anywho, they had a precursor to the CNC table machines. You fed the machine a printed drawing and it would use the difference between the black ink and white paper to correlate that to how to steer the cutting head. The machine ran an O/A torch. The reason for it, and not a plasma torch, was that they stated plasma would deflect through the material whereas O/A stayed pretty well square all the way through. They were cutting thick metal - over an inch thick. So O/A definitely has it's place. And you can't beat the portability - it doesn't run on electricity, period (the torch, a table that uses CNC or other electronic control technology - well thats a given you need electricity for it).

[Oscar]

I think it was ESAB maybe that is a "sister company" to Everlast, the home office addresses are 2 different units in the same building.

It's actually AHP that is the "sister" company of Everlast. Esab is on a whole 'other level than AHP/Everlast

On the subject of aluminum - I think the 200 amp mark is about minimum for a decent aluminum Tig. If that is the running amperage that might mean a machine in the upper 200's to 300 amps to get a better duty cycle down around 200 amps. Then the question is at that amperage do I loose anything on the low end for light gauge sheet metal work?.

There is no general answer to that question. You have to pick a machine and "dissect it" and continue the conversation with respect to that machine itself, or another specific machine. That being said, most will agree that top-tier TIGs do not have such a trade off. I can sustain a 4amp TIG arc with my 400A TIG using a 5/32" tungsten if I use the correct grind profile. Just food for thought.

[Kelvin]

I can sustain a 4amp TIG arc with my 400A TIG using a 5/32" tungsten if I use the correct grind profile. Just food for thought.

Just out of curiosity, where would you ever use such low current? I can't think of an example. At 30V arc voltage, that's 120W. I'm not sure I have a soldering iron that goes that low.

[Oscar]

Just out of curiosity, where would you ever use such low current? I can't think of an example. At 30V arc voltage, that's 120W. I'm not sure I have a soldering iron that goes that low.

LOL. It's not so much using it as an welding current to weld something tiny, but more so of the secondary benefits such as when you taper down to control fish-eye crater cracks. Take two TIGS and two tiny "aerospace" parts being welded at 30A. One TIG is already at its lower limit so one cannot feather the pedal lower any further. The other goes down to low single-digits. I suspect the latter would be preferred as it gives more control to be able to taper down. Obviously I'm just making up that scenario about the aerospace part; I dont know if it even applies to that sector, just seemed like it might.

[FlyFishn]

It's actually AHP that is the "sister" company of Everlast. Esab is on a whole 'other level than AHP/Everlast

Yep that was it - AHP. I knew it was a yellow welder but got the brands mixed up.

There is no general answer to that question. You have to pick a machine and "dissect it" and continue the conversation with respect to that machine itself, or another specific machine. That being said, most will agree that top-tier TIGs do not have such a trade off. I can sustain a 4amp TIG arc with my 400A TIG using a 5/32" tungsten if I use the correct grind profile. Just food for thought.

On the 4 amps - thats awesome.

LOL. It's not so much using it as an welding current to weld something tiny, but more so of the secondary benefits such as when you taper down to control fish-eye crater cracks. Take two TIGS and two tiny "aerospace" parts being welded at 30A. One TIG is already at its lower limit so one cannot feather the pedal lower any further. The other goes down to low single-digits. I suspect the latter would be preferred as it gives more control to be able to taper down. Obviously I'm just making up that scenario about the aerospace part; I dont know if it even applies to that sector, just seemed like it might.

I can see the example you laid out pretty well. I watched one of Kevin Caron's videos yesterday where he was demonstrating a low amp arc - I think he was trying to run 5 amps. He was attempting a butt joint of 2 pieces of sheet metal. What metal he did melt didn't penetrate at all and 1/16" filler didn't flow. That gave a nice perspective of just how low that amperage is. Though, I would be curious on something really thin like razor blade edges, pop cans (not the top/bottom rings but the side walls), or aluminum foil how that affect of low amperage might be different. Yeah, one can argue those are impractical scenarios, its just a thought with an example to describe.

[Oscar]

Though, I would be curious on something really thin like .....

if you really are curious to see for yourself how that plays out, then you need one that is capable of such ability. Multi-process TIGs generally aren't from what I've seen.

[FlyFishn]

I know most people on the forums rave about HTP. I'll pick on them (the brand) for a minute.

Invertig 221 (I don't see a non-special edition listed) 40th anneversary
$2595
3 year warranty
4-220a welding current
Duty cycles (Tig on 240v) are as follows:
20% @ 220a
60% @ 165a
100% @ 145a
Waveforms are as follows:
Square

Additional features:
Independent amperage adjustment on AC (positive and negative independently adjustable so as to tune the heat between the electrode and work)
AC balance 20-90% (would be curious how this and independent amperage adjustment above vary in results/application)
AC freq range 20-200hz
DC Pulse up to 999pps
64 memories for easy recall
Foot pedal control while in Stick mode
Spot time .1-10sec
Tig start - HF,

Manual states, on p11 for DC stick welding: "The only parameter that is adjustable is amperage. Hot start and arc force are not adjustable".


Everlast PowerTIG 255EXT
$2174
5 year warranty
5-250a (AC, 3-250a DC)
Duty cycles (Tig on 240v) are as follows:
60% @ 250a
100% @ 200a
Waveforms are as follows:
Advanced Square
Triangle
Sine
Soft Square

Additional features:
Tig start - HF or Remote Lift

.1-10Hz advanced pulse for thick material
DC pulse .1-500Hz (or, for direct comparison to HTP 1Hz = 1pps so 10sec/pulse-500pps, not sure why you'd have 10 seconds between pulses, though, or if that is even selectable - 1pps = 1hz so maybe they misplaced the decimal?)
AC pulse .1-250Hz (same conversion - 10sec/pulse - 250pps, same question on decimal placement)
Spot time 0-10sec
AC balance - 5-90%
Adjustable Arc Force
Adjustable Hot Start Time (0-2sec)
Adjustable Hot Start Intensity (0-100% amperage, I assume that is of full output capacity being 100%=250a. If it was not based on full amps then any percentage under 100% would be under the weld current - that makes no sense. Hot start = higher amperage than weld current then dropping to weld current, unless that is an inverted percentage - as in, say, 50% with a weld current of 90a would be 45a more = 135a? When you get up to the upper range - say 230-250a that inverted percentage doesn't work - you can't do even 10% at 240a as that would be 264a = 14a higher than max output).

Esab ET301i
Out of the price class, looks like it is somewhere above $6000
3 year warranty
Duty cycles (Tig on 240v, single phase) are as follows:
60% @ 200a (max on single phase)
100% @ 170a

Looks like it is limited to square wave. I won't dig too far in to the other specs/features - its out of the realm of possibilities on pricing but interesting to compare.

Same goes on pricing for the current Miller (MaxStar 280 equivalent = $5k^) and Lincoln (Apect 375 AC/DC, $6k^) variants. They are out of the price range for a reasonable comparison.

With the comparison between the HTP Invertig 221 and Everlast PowerTIG 255EXT - the specs are better on the 255EXT and it has 2 more years warranty for about $300 less. That isn't to say the owners of the HTP's are at much of a disadvantage, but looking at the specs it would appear one gets more "welder" for the money with the Everlast. In that last sentance it is based on the specs, not the company, ethics of the owners/management, ethics of salesmen, post-sale support, turn around time for repairs, what have you. Just specs.

Other options like the analog machines (Primeweld Tig225x, AHP AlphaTig's for example) I don't think are in the same comparison - there are a lot of features they don't have and don't hold a candle to the output and duty cycle.

If welding structural aluminum (angle, tubing - round, square, rectangle, C channel, etc) at respectable thicknesses (3/16"-1/4", upper end of what I could see myself welding down the road) requires 200a or more it doesn't make sense to get a lighter duty machine that will run thinner sheet aluminum or thinner structural stuff (1/8" wall/thickness tops) well, but struggles above it. If the amperage and duty cycle are there to go higher and will weld that thicker 3/16"-1/4" metal without hitting the duty cycle that makes sense. In better name brand machines that means a LOT of $.

For what a comparable Miller or Lincoln machine is (where I could get local LWS support) I could buy 3 of the Everlast PowerTig 255EXT's. If Esab or HTP - I still don't have local LWS support.

So the selling point really comes down to the frustration of support "when" TSHTF. If I buy 2 255EXT's and one goes down, I can send it off and run the 2nd one while the 1st is being repaired - and still be $ ahead of Lincoln or Miller. If I bought 2 HTP's for the same reason - I'd be $ down because they cost more up front, yet I'm still in the same boat of sending off for repair. So unless I have a backup machine I'd be down the same way I'd be with an Everlast. Not that I'd buy 2 machines right off the bat - but down the road it might be the way to go. Or, by that point down the road if there is something else that hits the market and if my current machine at that point has no problems it could be the back up for the new one.

[FlyFishn]

Just another thought, also - I'm content with dropping MIG for better TIG performance. If I need to lay metal down I can stick it. If cleanliness of the weld (steel) is desired then I could TIG it. Maybe further down the road I could look at MIG, but for now I think the TIG performance and balance of Sitck and Tig that I would have out-weighs anything I would gain with MIG.

[Oscar]

You're right on the specs, if taken at face value.

Unlike the everlasts, HTPs are very reliable. In speaking with an HTP rep on the phone some time back, the few times they work on them has to do mostly with customers not taking care of them, like finding insect nests and mud-dobbers living inside of them, never cleaning out the inside of the machine when it has been exposed to a very dusty/dirty environment. I'm sure there were some duds here and there just like anything else; nothing is exempt from failure. But even now it's tough to find any instances of them breaking down; I think I read one somewhere recently, can't remember where if it was on a forum or social media. I remember one time I thought mine was acting up, but it turned out one of the wires in the 6-50 plug was loose because the screw was loose on one of the hot-blades and was arc'ing. Scared the crap out of me, because it would "overtemp" almost instantly, but once I found the issue, never had any problems since.

[ttoks]

So the selling point really comes down to the frustration of support "when" TSHTF. If I buy 2 255EXT's and one goes down, I can send it off and run the 2nd one while the 1st is being repaired - and still be $ ahead of Lincoln or Miller. If I bought 2 HTP's for the same reason - I'd be $ down because they cost more up front, yet I'm still in the same boat of sending off for repair. So unless I have a backup machine I'd be down the same way I'd be with an Everlast. Not that I'd buy 2 machines right off the bat - but down the road it might be the way to go. Or, by that point down the road if there is something else that hits the market and if my current machine at that point has no problems it could be the back up for the new one.

Here an interesting thought, Everlast's Canadian warranty terms and conditions (I'm using the canadian ones because good luck finding the T&C's for they're U.S sales online, I've tried) state that 30 day's after purchase the purchaser is responsible for all shipping, handling and insurance costs to and from the repair facility to have the machine repaired under warranty, if they deem that your packaging isn't to they're standard they will charge you to repackage it for return.

Where as HTP's warranty includes all shipping to and from the repair facility, and often with the bigger companies (lincoln, Miller, ESAB ect) repair's can be done at the dealer for them.

How confident are you in a machine when the manufacture isn't confident enough to cover shipping to have it repaired under warranty?

That is ignoring the avalanche of horror stories of user's that have actually tried to get they're everlast machines repaired under warranty, with some of them taking 6 months or more, and other where an obviously defective unit (things like board damage, missing and loose electrical connections, missing reinforcement around capacitors on board's causing them to break off ect) has been deemed as damaged by the end user and warranty refused, after having it sit at everlast's repair facility for months.

Looking at the spec sheet alone they look like a great value until you realise where they actually cut the corner's, one is obviously the build quality but another is the service side, they're banking on warranty and service being such a pain that people pay they're 2 grand or more for a machine and simply dont follow through with it when it breaks.

[G-ManBart]

Here an interesting thought, Everlast's Canadian warranty terms and conditions (I'm using the canadian ones because good luck finding the T&C's for they're U.S sales online, I've tried) state that 30 day's after purchase the purchaser is responsible for all shipping, handling and insurance costs to and from the repair facility to have the machine repaired under warranty, if they deem that your packaging isn't to they're standard they will charge you to repackage it for return.

Where as HTP's warranty includes all shipping to and from the repair facility, and often with the bigger companies (lincoln, Miller, ESAB ect) repair's can be done at the dealer for them.

How confident are you in a machine when the manufacture isn't confident enough to cover shipping to have it repaired under warranty?

That is ignoring the avalanche of horror stories of user's that have actually tried to get they're everlast machines repaired under warranty, with some of them taking 6 months or more, and other where an obviously defective unit (things like board damage, missing and loose electrical connections, missing reinforcement around capacitors on board's causing them to break off ect) has been deemed as damaged by the end user and warranty refused, after having it sit at everlast's repair facility for months.

Looking at the spec sheet alone they look like a great value until you realise where they actually cut the corner's, one is obviously the build quality but another is the service side, they're banking on warranty and service being such a pain that people pay they're 2 grand or more for a machine and simply dont follow through with it when it breaks.

Holy spelling horror field batman...

Edit to add: I think I had to pay shipping when I returned a defective welder that was 6 months old, but they gave me full purchase price credit towards another welder and took off about $100 from the list price as well as upgraded to the better torch sets...so it seemed like a fair deal.