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Thread: 6010 6011 side by side

  1. #26
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Am I confused?
    I understood that OCV was the issue with 6010 & inverters. Older transformer based welders seem to have 75 to 100 Volt OCV. Inverters perhaps 1/2 that. A big old transformer will then drop to half voltage with an established arc.
    Hey Willie, Kevin,

    In my research and limited experience the 6010 conundrum is part OCV and part inductance. One is not the other. Both are needed to sustain the arc on a transformer machine. The reason the idealarc is such a dream w 6010 is the size of the choke and winding count. I estimate the idealarc has somewhere like 70 mH of inductance. Most chokes in the little thunderbolts are not even close to this. Neither is mine.

    Here is the idealarc choke

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    Last edited by Continuum; 04-29-2021 at 10:25 AM.

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  3. #27
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Hey Willie, Kevin,

    In my research and limited experience the 6010 conundrum is part OCV and part inductance. One is not the other. Both are needed to sustain the arc on a transformer machine. The reason the idealarc is such a dream w 6010 is the size of the choke and winding count. I estimate the idealarc has somewhere like 70 mH of inductance. Most chokes in the little thunderbolts are not even close to this. Neither is mine.

    Here is the idealarc choke

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    Your formula has gone way over my head, but thanks for the explanation. I've always theorized the bigger the welder, the nicer the arc. A cheap transformer with high OCV functions with either 6010 or 6011. A big heavy monster performs better.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Misunderstanding here. Not changing machines. You mentioned sending 6010 rods. I need to purchase both 6010 and 6011. What was your recommendation for 6010? I’ve run the TSC 6011 just fine. Lincoln 6010p ?


    Nice read and summary here:

    https://www.esabna.com/us/en/news/ne...electrodes.cfm

    Secondly, good E6010 welders have a large inductor. An inductor resists change in electric current passing through it. They are said to “hold power” or act as a “power reserve” to keep the arc established as the operator manipulates the electrode. Conventional power sources and welding generators use large magnetics, such as copper wire wrapped around a ferrite core. Inverter-based power sources use electronics and much smaller magnetics to minimize overall weight.

    Regards.
    Oh ok, I misunderstood then, when you asked about "recommendation for lower inductance transformer machines?".

    Lincoln gray 5P+ or 6P+. Easiest to run from my testing. BŲhler Fox 6010s comes in a close 2nd.

    The inductor can indeed help sustain the amperage, IF the voltage is present. IMO, what you are empirically experiencing is that extended arc-lengths are causing an insufficient voltage condition, which then causes arc to snuff out (aka no current) as evidenced by your need to keep a very tight arc. If large inductance is all that is needed, then you wouldn't be needing to keep a tight arc and you would be able to hold a 1"-2" arc without any issues what so ever. That is obviously not the case.
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

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    It's all geek to me


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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    It's all geek to me

    I knew there was a big difference. I had a Twentieth Century the snake oil salesman sold as a miracle I bought new one night in 1974. 14 or so others bought them that night also. Most were AC only, a few were DC. I later acquired one of the DC version sold that night. I thought it was the best I could get. Many years later I bought this at a price I liked:


    Name:  Idealarc.jpg
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    It says NEMA output 300 but goes to 400 amps, and it welds NICE!

    Now I know why. I wish I understood your formula, I could impress some people!
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  7. #31
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Red colored flux. McMaster Carr. In contrast to a rod that canít be lit, this rod indeed works. Admittedly it requires some nursing.
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    this is what Ive gotten from Mcmaster Carr for 6010 rods. Lincoln 5P brick red.
    Airco 250 ac/dc Heliwelder Square wave
    Miller Synchrowave 180 sd
    Miller Econo Twin HF
    Lincoln 210 MP
    Dayton 225 ac/dc
    Victor torches
    Snap-On YA-212
    Lotos Cut60D

  8. #32
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    It's all geek to me

    Sorry for being so obtuse. It was just suppose to be a pic of the massive choke on the idealarc.

    If you’re interested, I followed the work of Mr Hilstrom here. He has a nice buildup and actually measured some closed circuit waveform when welding. It shows the importance of inductance.

    http://www.hildstrom.com/projects/ac-225/

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    I have an idea to modify my choke by doubling the winding count. I can switch the paired wires to double back at lower amperage. This would give 4x the inductance, maybe 12 mH. Others take the stinger lead and wrap around a steel cylinder. Any additional inductance added in series helps the 6010 problem. Not proven thus yet, but I believe the extinguishing of the arc is the near zero voltage drop on rectification. I have some ideas and will update after testing this weekend.

    Re welding rods, Oscar thanks. I’ll try the Lincoln.

    Regards.
    Last edited by Continuum; 04-30-2021 at 05:08 AM.

  9. #33
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    I have an idea to modify my choke by doubling the winding count. I can switch the paired wires to double back at lower amperage. This would give 4x the inductance, maybe 12 mH. Others take the stinger lead and wrap around a steel cylinder. Any additional inductance added in series helps the 6010 problem. Not proven thus yet, but I believe the extinguishing of the arc is the near zero voltage drop on rectification. I have some ideas and will update after testing this weekend.
    Please do. It'd be interesting to know.

    My hunch, given that increasing the wrap-count on the choke probably wouldn't add that much to the cost of building the welder, is that the EEs at Lincoln determined the best compromise on the choke wrap count and went with whatever it is.

    If you test, you ought to test with different rods both before and after. It may be that increasing the choke wrap count improves performance on cellulosic rods but degrades performance in some other way...(just a guess, since I don't really know what inductance is, yet...)

  10. #34
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Sorry for being so obtuse. It was just suppose to be a pic of the massive choke on the idealarc.

    If youíre interested, I followed the work of Mr Hilstrom here. He has a nice buildup and actually measured some closed circuit waveform when welding. It shows the importance of inductance.

    http://www.hildstrom.com/projects/ac-225/

    Name:  820AB393-6CB8-4999-B014-80B4FAE63E6A.png
Views: 153
Size:  11.3 KB

    I have an idea to modify my choke by doubling the winding count. I can switch the paired wires to double back at lower amperage. This would give 4x the inductance, maybe 12 mH. Others take the stinger lead and wrap around a steel cylinder. Any additional inductance added in series helps the 6010 problem. Not proven thus yet, but I believe the extinguishing of the arc is the near zero voltage drop on rectification. I have some ideas and will update after testing this weekend.

    Re welding rods, Oscar thanks. Iíll try the Lincoln.

    Regards.
    Everything I've ever seen describes DC welding current as nearly steady DC power. I'm surprised to see the spikes in voltage at 120 HZ intervals. Perhaps what I've seen is current instead of voltage?
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  11. #35
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Everything I've ever seen describes DC welding current as nearly steady DC power. I'm surprised to see the spikes in voltage at 120 HZ intervals. Perhaps what I've seen is current instead of voltage?
    If the voltage changes, shouldn't the current change, too? (More EMF "pressure," more current, less EMF "pressure," less current, assuming load is constant?)
    Last edited by Kelvin; 04-30-2021 at 09:18 AM.

  12. #36
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    If the voltage changes, shouldn't the current change, too? (More EMF "pressure," more current, less EMF "pressure," less current, assuming load is constant?)
    The current waveform will see the same type of ripple.

    Here is a comparison of 4 turns versus 14 turns on the inductor. The upper plot is what you would see if you rectified to DC only. The choke is like a shock absorber. It smoothed the ripple. It is the reason, along w OCV, why 6010 is harder to keep ignited. When the waveform droops, the arc is extinguished. The takeaway is that any DC circuit will have some degree of an AC component.

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    I’ll test some this weekend. I’ll report my findings.
    Last edited by Continuum; 04-30-2021 at 10:03 AM.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Everything I've ever seen describes DC welding current as nearly steady DC power. I'm surprised to see the spikes in voltage at 120 HZ intervals. Perhaps what I've seen is current instead of voltage?
    You're confusing DC current with DC voltage and then you're throwing in DC power. In DC constant-current, the current should stay relatively steady, but the voltage can vary depending on arc length. You said it yourself, you're seeing spikes in voltage, which is what that chart is depicting, not DC welding current.
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Another issue is that, even though stick welders are called "constant current" welders, usually they increase the current with a drop in arc voltage.

    Since Watts = Volts x Amps, as you decrease your arc length (which lowers arc voltage), the amount of power (Watts) going into the weld would go down, otherwise.

    To lessen that effect and prevent snuffing of the arc, the "dig" control increases the current when the arc voltage drops. Many transformer welders also have "drooper" V-A curves that account for drops in arc voltage automatically.

    On my engine-drive welder, you can choose from 5 different "taps" (coarse settings) which will change the amount of dig ... the closer that the V-A curve gets to horizontal (as opposed to vertical) in the arc-voltage range where you're welding, the more the current increases when you lower the arc voltage. Here you can see why I like to use a higher tap when burning 6010 in my engine-drive -- because a fairly small change in the arc voltage has a larger effect on the current, than on the lower taps. In this diagram, for example, you can see that lowering the arc voltage from 40V to 20V when using the highest tap increases the amperage from 400 to 500:



    I generally use the middle tap when burning 1/8" 6010 ... but it's the same principle, just more exaggerated and easier to see, on the highest tap. It's all about the slope of the V-A curve in the arc-voltage area where you're working. Less slope (closer to horizontal) in that area of the curve = more dig, and vice-versa.

    If for some reason I want less dig when burning 1/8" 6010, I can use a lower tap (the one for 65-120A) and turn up the "fine" adjustment.
    Last edited by Kelvin; 04-30-2021 at 12:38 PM.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Man I just love it when we reinvent the welding process every time some body picks up a 6010 rod there are so many variables with 6010 arc length , length of cord plugging in welder , resistance in leads , duty cycle of machine , type of flux , it goes on and on , travel speed , type of ground , distance from ground when striking arc , cleanliness of base material , type and thickness of material your working on , leads ! What size how long ? How old? What condition ?

    It takes a lot of things to do whatever it is your trying to accomplish !

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Leogl View Post
    Man I just love it when we reinvent the welding process every time some body picks up a 6010 rod there are so many variables with 6010 arc length , length of cord plugging in welder , resistance in leads , duty cycle of machine , type of flux , it goes on and on , travel speed , type of ground , distance from ground when striking arc , cleanliness of base material , type and thickness of material your working on , leads ! What size how long ? How old? What condition ?

    It takes a lot of things to do whatever it is your trying to accomplish !
    Only when one overanalyzes everything.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    You're confusing DC current with DC voltage and then you're throwing in DC power. In DC constant-current, the current should stay relatively steady, but the voltage can vary depending on arc length. You said it yourself, you're seeing spikes in voltage, which is what that chart is depicting, not DC welding current.
    Hey Oscar, Kevin,

    The red line is current. It follows the same form as the voltage. It is not constant. I’m going to rig a current shunt do I can probe both.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Man I’ve opened the proverbial can of worms. I’ll fix this. Give me a few days. This 6010 fail theme is played all over the net. It would be best to put this to bed w qualitative data.

    I like this rod and want to use it more. I have a vested interest.

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  21. #43
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    You said it yourself, you're seeing spikes in voltage, which is what that chart is depicting, not DC welding current.
    Yeah, but when you increase the voltage, you will also increase the current. Voltage is analogous to pressure in a pipe, and amperage (current) is analogous to "gallons per hour that pass through the pipe." When you increase the pressure of the water inside the pipe, the more water will pass through a given orifice in a given amount of time. The same is true of voltage and amperage in a wire.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Yeah, but when you increase the voltage, you will also increase the current. Voltage is analogous to pressure in a pipe, and amperage (current) is analogous to "gallons per hour that pass through the pipe." When you increase the pressure of the water inside the pipe, the more water will pass through a given orifice in a given amount of time. The same is true of voltage and amperage in a wire.
    I agree in that simplified, basic scenario that does not have any other limiting circuitry. In a true constant-current power source, such as stick welders, I do not think it should vary much.
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Hey Oscar, Kevin,

    The red line is current. It follows the same form as the voltage. It is not constant. I’m going to rig a current shunt do I can probe both.
    Ok, then I guess it suffices to say that welder is not a true CC power source, based on your data.
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Ok, then I guess it suffices to say that welder is not a true CC power source, based on your data.
    Nor would you want it to be, unless you want to snuff out your electrode every time you stuff it into a deep root. The only way to keep the overall heat input constant (Watts) when you decrease arc-voltage is to increase the current (amperage) proportionally, hence "dig" controls and drooper V-A behavior.

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  26. #47
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    The reason the idealarc is such a dream w 6010 is the size of the choke and winding count.
    Back in the day companies didn't know how to make things cheap. So they just made them good.

    Unfortunately, that has not stayed the course through the past 3-4 decades.

    I got a power supply from an old Micor Motorola repeater from the 70's or 80's. It ran a tube amp (about 200-250w) and thus required a high voltage power supply (I believe it was 1500v DC, but I could be off - somewhere around 1-2kv). Part of the circuit was the same thing - a large choke.

    In current times - rectified DC is filtered by capacitors. Back in the day - rectified DC was filtered by chokes. In both cases - the power through them is stored (in a capacitor - electric charge of the plates, in a choke/inductor - magnetic field).

    I would be curious to know what the conversion is between the modern cost of a big arse copper-wound choke vs a suitable capacitor bank in current times. Although, you can't touch the weight advantage of capacitors - and modern ones at that. I'd guess the choke alone (can't separate mine to weigh, all the chokes/transformer are welded together in my machine) weighs a good 60-80lbs.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    The current waveform will see the same type of ripple.

    Here is a comparison of 4 turns versus 14 turns on the inductor. The upper plot is what you would see if you rectified to DC only. The choke is like a shock absorber. It smoothed the ripple. It is the reason, along w OCV, why 6010 is harder to keep ignited. When the waveform droops, the arc is extinguished. The takeaway is that any DC circuit will have some degree of an AC component.

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    I’ll test some this weekend. I’ll report my findings.

    You might find a video I put together on the Idealarc welding with AC and DC last year interesting. The oscilloscope used is a Siglent digital unit = admittedly not the greatest, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. I did acquire an analog oscilloscope over the winter so I may repeat the test to see what the analog 'scope shows. It doesn't have the on-screen math functions, however, so interpretation would have to be made based on the trace locations against the lines on the screen.


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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I knew there was a big difference. I had a Twentieth Century the snake oil salesman sold as a miracle I bought new one night in 1974. 14 or so others bought them that night also. Most were AC only, a few were DC. I later acquired one of the DC version sold that night. I thought it was the best I could get. Many years later I bought this at a price I liked:


    Name:  Idealarc.jpg
Views: 183
Size:  91.1 KB

    It says NEMA output 300 but goes to 400 amps, and it welds NICE!

    Now I know why. I wish I understood your formula, I could impress some people!
    Do you have more pictures of that one? Or have you posted them here before (link)?

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    You might find a video I put together on the Idealarc welding with AC and DC last year interesting. The oscilloscope used is a Siglent digital unit = admittedly not the greatest, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. I did acquire an analog oscilloscope over the winter so I may repeat the test to see what the analog 'scope shows. It doesn't have the on-screen math functions, however, so interpretation would have to be made based on the trace locations against the lines on the screen.

    First off, that’s a very nice looking restoration. Looks like a dream machine. I snapped this pic. Can you explain a bit please? I don’t hear sizzle so I’m assuming you’re running across some load bank in the test. This waveform is voltage right?

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