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Thread: 6010 6011 side by side

  1. #51
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    More data. Here is s a clever solution to the 6010 and inverter. As discussed above, the rod requires more inductance. So thi as chap runs his inverter through a unpowered secondary transformer welder.



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    More information re Hildstroms work. He opened his inverter and shows the specialize chokes used in the dedicated 6010 port. Inductance again.

    http://www.hildstrom.com/projects/po...300/index.html

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    This adds series inductance in the negative return line.
    Last edited by Continuum; 05-01-2021 at 06:08 AM.

  2. #52
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    I snapped this pic. Can you explain a bit please? I donít hear sizzle so Iím assuming youíre running across some load bank in the test. This waveform is voltage right?
    That is while welding. As noted in the title screen before that segment - 115a welding current on DC electrode negative.

    The voltages listed are the math function read-outs on the screen (the column you can't read on the right of the 'scope screen - I copied the readings/ranges to actual text so it was legible). That was set up for AC. The Vamp is rather worthless and shouldn't be on there, honestly.

    The Peak to Peak V is the measurement between the top and bottom of the waveform.

    Vrms is as you would expect - RMS voltage (pertains to AC - root mean square, .707 x peak, when you rectify AC to DC that should be your DC voltage - in this case, on AC - if you watch the first segment on the AC setting - it is the OCV, which is a bit higher than spec because the input voltage is higher).

    Vtop is the highest voltage (since the screen shot is negative, this would be the smallest number closer to 0)
    Vbase is the lowest voltage (since the screen shot is negative, this would be the largest number further from 0)

    Peak to Peak V is the difference between Vtop and Vbase.

    The waveform is voltage, yes. The oscilloscope will not measure amperage. However, you can plot amperage by way of creating a shunt and calibrating a voltage difference between them using 2 channels. I have not done that on a welder yet, but you can check the video below for a method that describes how to do that as well as how to calibrate the measurements (you loose power and heat in the shunt - you need to be able to compensate for that to bring the reading back in sync).


  3. #53
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Good morning,

    I went back to try to pad some beads. I also added some series inductance w a large bar of steel and 5 turns on each side; this was all I could manage. Small as this was, it did improve arc stability. It was noticeable.

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    Prior to starting, I watched a Jody Collier vid on padding 6010. These are a far cry of course. The material is high carbon scrap. I dunked this between runs to cool.

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    Anyway, this is typical of my 6010/11 beads. I cannot seem to get even ripple from whip/pause. I’ll practice more of course.

    I still plan on reading the current waveform. Hope to have that by the weekend. I also plan on making an additional choke with dinse 3.5 connectors that I can plug in series with the cabling that exists.

    Regards.
    Last edited by Continuum; 05-04-2021 at 04:39 AM.

  4. #54
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Very interested in replicating your results if it does end up working.
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  5. #55
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
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    Anyway, this is typical of my 6010/11 beads. I cannot seem to get even ripple from whip/pause. I’ll practice more of course.

    I still plan on reading the current waveform. Hope to have that by the weekend. I also plan on making an additional choke with dinse 3.5 connectors that I can plug in series with the cabling that exists.
    At this point, I would concentrate on learning to run a good, consistent bead, rather than making new doohickeys...I think that's gonna be your best bang for the buck. Burn a 50# can, then report back...I bet you'll see a big improvement. (I also wonder whether changing your machine's behavior might be messing you up.)

    Also, the "whip and pause" may not be for you. (Or maybe try decaf?) Sometimes "low and slow" is better, or make your excursions smaller and let em fill more...try to get your bead height to be smoother/more consistent. Ripples are one thing, but it should not look like a sine wave or sawtooth wave.
    Last edited by Kelvin; 05-04-2021 at 08:06 AM.

  6. #56
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    At this point, I would concentrate on learning to run a good, consistent bead, rather than making new doohickeys...I think that's gonna be your best bang for the buck. Burn a 50# can, then report back...I bet you'll see a big improvement. (I also wonder whether changing your machine's behavior might be messing you up.)

    Also, the "whip and pause" may not be for you. (Or maybe try decaf?) Sometimes "low and slow" is better, or make your excursions smaller and let em fill more...try to get your bead height to be smoother/more consistent. Ripples are one thing, but it should not look like a sine wave or sawtooth wave.
    Good advice. I have to defeat the ridges and pileups.

  7. #57
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Sometimes I get better results doing cursive e manipulation of the rod to smooth the ripples. I use Lincoln 5P+ electrodes which arenít as aggressive as the old red 6010. Practice, Practice,Practice is good advice. Padding beads until you canít stand it, quench the metal and go again


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  8. #58
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

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    Your 1/8" 6010 looks like mine on my inverter machine. I haven't perfected it playing with settings, so I don't have much to suggest on trying to improve it on an inverter. The coils on the bar of steel is a decent idea. Get some zip ties and tighten up the bunch. Hold a tighter coil to the steel. You can buy dinse connectors. So maybe get you about 15-25ft 1/0 SOOW, put an M and F dinse on either end to connect to the welder and the stinger lead, then stack a bunch of turns on the steel bar.

    You can also find transformers in all kinds of old surplus stuff. Even if transformers are "burnt" the cores can be good. They are possible to rebuild. Below is a website where a guy describes the process of rebuilding/winding his own transformers. Transformer winding is a hobby in and of itself. I have considered doing this for a high power HF/shortwave radio amp power supply as the commercial variants ready made are many thousands of dollars and finding a surplus one to do what I want doesn't exist (multiple secondary taps, not just an HV secondary and a LV/control secondary).

    https://ludens.cl/Electron/trafos/trafos.html

    As for the beads - try boosting the current and run the rods hotter. If you have hot start - crank up the hot start and play with the delay some. Same goes for arc force. I think when I had mine set I put both hot start and arc force at 30%, but that got about the same results as yours = not good settings. The arc should be hot enough to keep a good liquid pool going.

    The times I've run nicer beads with 6010 (idealarc, not the inverter = yet) have been whip-and-pause where I start the arc at the beginning of the bead by striking backwards - start ahead, back up with the arc strike, and hit the beginning of the bead. Then I move forward at a bit quicker speed, maybe 3/4". Then I back up at a slower speed and control the pool to shove it back against the previous, watching the edge of the pool to stop the next one just before I crest the previous. Then I repeat - advance about 3/4" ahead at a quicker pace, and then back up slow steering the pool back against the previous. Depending on how much penetration you want you can change your return speed/pause time. With thicker metal keep the current up so you're holding a good pool. Thinner metal is hard as you can blow through real easy and you'll have to drop the current. That will work against you trying to keep the arc lit too.

  9. #59
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Basic high school math to the rescue.

    To get more inductance....

    Shorten the length of the coil...(inductance is inversely proportional to the length...less length = more)...

    Using the same wire length, use more turns....inductance is proportional to the square of the number of turns...(2x the turns using the same length of wire = 4x the inductance)

    Increase the cross sectional area inside the coils...(inductance is proportional to the enclosed area...more area inside the coils = more inductance)
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Basic high school math to the rescue.

    To get more inductance....

    Shorten the length of the coil...(inductance is inversely proportional to the length...less length = more)...

    Using the same wire length, use more turns....inductance is proportional to the square of the number of turns...(2x the turns using the same length of wire = 4x the inductance)

    Increase the cross sectional area inside the coils...(inductance is proportional to the enclosed area...more area inside the coils = more inductance)
    Not entirely correct. Proportional to the length of the flux path. The flux path must leave the high perm steel and travel open air to return to the steel.

    This is the equation. Again only an approximation due to the flux path issue.

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    Tiny value indeed, 0.26 mHenry. I’m surprised it would make any difference. However, the series inductance will add. I already have an estimated 1mH so this gives about 25% more.

    Here is the estimate for the IdealArc based on visual account of size and turns

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    Last edited by Continuum; 05-05-2021 at 08:40 AM.

  11. #61
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Continuum, This formula is reasonably accurate for values of 2a divided by ł less than 3.

    ł is lower case cursive l in formula.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  12. #62
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Not entirely correct. Proportional to the length of the flux path. The flux path must leave the high perm steel and travel open air to return to the steel.

    This is the equation. Again only an approximation due to the flux path issue.

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    Tiny value indeed, 0.26 mHenry. I’m surprised it would make any difference. However, the series inductance will add. I already have an estimated 1mH so this gives about 25% more.

    Here is the estimate for the IdealArc based on visual account of size and turns

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    The formula shows what I said. N-squared is there as is A in the numerator (indicating the proper proportionality), as is L in the denominator (inverse proportion).
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    The formula shows what I said. N-squared is there as is A in the numerator (indicating the proper proportionality), as is L in the denominator (inverse proportion).

    Golly gee, you deserve a gold star on your forehead Oscar.

  14. #64
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    Golly gee, you deserve a gold star on your forehead Oscar.
    Thanks! That little good star got me a career so I can't complain!
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Here is another side by side test. Old 5/32 6011, 5/32 lincoln 5p+ 6010, DCEN, 135 amps on both machines. Top weld on the left is 6010, run on a trailblazer engine drive. Top right is 6011 on the engine drive. Bottom left is 6010 run on a Everlast 256SI inverter. Rod snuffed out several times so the machine don't like it. Bottom right is 6011 on the Everlast inverter machine. Material is 1/2 plate with millscale.Name:  KIMG0477.jpg
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    Not much difference in the rods - I prefer 5P+ over 6011, but if I didn't have a machine that would run 6010, I could live with 6011.
    Last edited by cwby; 05-05-2021 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Add photo

  16. #66
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    This thread should be renamed: "The crappiest welds I can make with 5P and 6011" while yapping about stuff. Lordy, lordy.

  17. #67
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Yofish View Post
    This thread should be renamed: "The crappiest welds I can make with 5P and 6011" while yapping about stuff. Lordy, lordy.
    Good morning Fish,

    Well if we did that, then youíd not come back the three or four times as youíve done.

    You must admit, youíre drawn to this thread. Anyway, perhaps you could post some of your 6010 welds to enlighten the unwashed masses.

    Regards.

  18. #68
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Basic high school math to the rescue.

    To get more inductance....

    The
    Shorten the length of the coil...(inductance is inversely proportional to the length...less length = more)...

    Using the same wire length, use more turns....inductance is proportional to the square of the number of turns...(2x the turns using the same length of wire = 4x the inductance)

    Increase the cross sectional area inside the coils...(inductance is proportional to the enclosed area...more area inside the coils = more inductance)
    If by length of coil you implied the iron core, the you were right, and my apologies. If you meant length of wire, you are incorrect.

    Regards.

  19. #69
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    It's not just iron core, even for an air-core. So yes, the physical length of the coil, as a coil, not the un-wound linear length of the wire.
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Hi,
    I'm not a Welder, Machinist or Fabricator but did all three among other things as part of my job(s) in the Merchant Marines.

    The best advice I can give is just as was already mentioned, keep practicing.

    Make a Welding Cart, or something you need,, to keep it interesting.

    I run into something now I welded 30 years ago and cringe, but that is part of it...STILL learning on this end!

    Oh yea, watch the puddle, watch the puddle!!!
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  21. #71
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Well I am not real smart but I will say this until you get where you can run a bead with a constant arc length and a travel speed that produces a consistent bead with all of this info means nothing ! Arc length controls voltage , and to try to reinvent the wheel with a couple of 3 to 4inch welds is going to surprise you that it wonít be the same when you run a real bead

  22. #72
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    There is one other factor you never hear about there is a term called joules per inch which is heat input to the base metal on multiple pass weld with the same size electrode everything changes even with same arc length and travel speed .

  23. #73
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    I was messing around today so I tried some 6011 and 6010 side-by-side. Same settings.

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    Bead appearance is pretty much the same. Both were run with whip-and-pause. Base metal is 3/4" thick bar with the mill scale still on it. The only difference is the 6010 is a more aggressive rod that penetrates harder.

    For what it is worth, without changing the settings, the 6010 rods ran easier than the 6011's. That surprised me. Thats why you see the restart on the top bead - 6011 and stuck the rod so I unstuck the rod and went back in to it.

    Unless I had a machine that wouldn't run 6010, I'd prefer 6010. Otherwise, if you're going after bead appearance there isn't enough of a difference between them.
    Last edited by FlyFishn; 05-07-2021 at 07:09 PM.

  24. #74
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Your beads are too narrow too high too cold turn your heat up ripples to close not enough heat

  25. #75
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Leogl View Post
    Your beads are too narrow too high too cold turn your heat up ripples to close not enough heat
    Boy howdy, I don't get this laying a bead that's not a joint as if it shows something.

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