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Thread: 6010 6011 side by side

  1. #1
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    6010 6011 side by side

    Morning all,

    I posted a question about 6011 pileup sometime back. I asked if my DC transformer machine could run 6010. I acquire a small amount of 6010 and ran some side by side beads to compare.

    I thought I’d share since I’ve not found any real comparisons. Until this test, I didn’t know if I had enough inductance to keep it lit.

    Particulars:

    110 reduced to 105 A
    DCEP
    75 OCV
    0.3125 thick mild steel
    Hobbyists dork. Not a pipe welder so it’s not terribly smooth and has some undercut.

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    Anyway this rod is really nice to weld with. I purposely made the gap w tacks so I could run the bead off both sides. I wasn’t sure how to run it but just sort of got in the flow. I whipped a little and would work on one side then the other. I will say that the 6010 is a little harder to keep lit. I wore cheaters and that helped reduce the arc length. I found I was extinguishing at times due to the arc length increasing in the deep root.

    Anyway, I’m very pleased this worked and adds another tool to the box

    Regards.
    Last edited by Continuum; 04-25-2021 at 06:04 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    What specific machine are you using?

    My Idealarc 250 (round top) is said to have a 74v OCV - on AC with 230v input. My OCV is higher on 245v line voltage. The other kicker is on DC it is over 100v OCV (rectified and filtered).

    That aside, the Round Top will run 6010 all day long very easily. I found 6010 to be a real nice rod to have around. Right now I just have 1/8" but I want to see if I can find some smaller ones. It seems 6011 is easier to find, 6010 is easy to find in 1/8" and 3/32", but thats about it.

    My inverter machine (still new to it, haven't messed with the settings a whole lot yet) is another story - it is a challenge (at the moment) to run 6010. It surprised me, actually. I think I'm just spoiled from the Round Top.... I'll keep at it, that was one of my requirements for an inverter - that it run 6010 - and this one should so I'm still confident it will when tuned right. Its just an interesting comparison of how hard the rod can actually be to run.

  3. #3
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    6010 is basically a DC only rod while 6011 is AC/DC. What machine are you using ? I never had any issues running AC 6010 0n the AC/DC Lincoln Tombstone and Miller Thunderbolts .

    The 6011 works for me on them also IF AC only. Remember the settings are only a starting point. As you improve , you'll find your preferred setting on your machine.

    Some of the really old machines at work the dial plate is about completed faded. You need to adjust to your liking, numbers are gone .

    As for inverters, the Miller CST 280 is great for 6010, we have a bunch for pipe welding.
    Last edited by BD1; 04-25-2021 at 07:53 AM.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    What specific machine are you using?

    My Idealarc 250 (round top) is said to have a 74v OCV - on AC with 230v input. My OCV is higher on 245v line voltage. The other kicker is on DC it is over 100v OCV (rectified and filtered).

    That aside, the Round Top will run 6010 all day long very easily. I found 6010 to be a real nice rod to have around. Right now I just have 1/8" but I want to see if I can find some smaller ones. It seems 6011 is easier to find, 6010 is easy to find in 1/8" and 3/32", but thats about it.

    My inverter machine (still new to it, haven't messed with the settings a whole lot yet) is another story - it is a challenge (at the moment) to run 6010. It surprised me, actually. I think I'm just spoiled from the Round Top.... I'll keep at it, that was one of my requirements for an inverter - that it run 6010 - and this one should so I'm still confident it will when tuned right. Its just an interesting comparison of how hard the rod can actually be to run.
    That’s an awesome machine. The choke has massive inductance to suppress the voltage drop during rectification. Wished I had one or even could run one for fun.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    I found I was extinguishing at times due to the arc length increasing in the deep root.

    Anyway, I’m very pleased this worked and adds another tool to the box

    Regards.
    Sorry to be a Debbie downer, but the extinguishing arc means it didn't work.

    All may not be lost though. First I must ask: exactly which "6010" did you acquire?
    Last edited by Oscar; 04-25-2021 at 10:52 AM.
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Sorry to be a Debbie downer, but the extinguishing arc means it didn't work.

    All may not be lost though. First I must ask: exactly which "6010" did you acquire?
    Red colored flux. McMaster Carr. In contrast to a rod that can’t be lit, this rod indeed works. Admittedly it requires some nursing.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    As I understand 6010 lives in the land of high inductance. The idealarc round top has massive inductance in the choke. My DIY rig has limited inductance, maybe 3 mH.

    Re question on model. I started w Sears AC buzzer. Cut in dinse 3.5 connectors. Added choke and varistors and MDQ200 a rectification. Unit is bullet proof. I’ve burned 20 pounds in DC so it’s paid for itself many times over.

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    Last edited by Continuum; 04-25-2021 at 11:04 AM.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    I’ve learned a bit on the light end DC transformer machines like the Thunderbolt. The design has a low and high voltage tap. They run DC in high voltage which limits the max amperage pushed through the choke. This way you can get more windings and inductance and still hold the current.

    Now the idealarc uses wrapped copper bus bars for the choke thus allowing high end current. You will see my above arrangement of Dinse that I can run the full current load through the choke. Not just the 75 OCV side. A solution is more inductance more winding more copper etc etc. anyway I ran out of room and copper at the same time.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Those aren't welds.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Yofish View Post
    Those aren't welds.
    Good morning Mr yofish,

    Please elaborate on your comment. I’ll happily take any instruction you’re willing to offer.

    Thanks.

    Regards.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    My stick welder was a derelict Twentieth Century 295 Amp 100% duty cycle rust bucket. I ran 6011 for years 'cause that's what the farm store 3/4 mile away had to offer.
    Years later I tried 6010, that also worked fine, though I hadn't mastered vertical up.

    These days I have a 1969 Lincoln refrigerator. It must weigh 900 LBS. It is a better welder. I find a very short arc is best, only loose enough to move it. Sometimes I'm actually touching the flux. I'm not aware of much difference between 6010 & 6011 when on DC reverse.

    I have tried Dynasty 280DX with 6010 (inverter) Once lit, it works as well as any welder, but sticking striking an arc is an issue. I did a dump body with hundreds of 1" long T joint welds in 1/4" stock, it worked fine. Once the rod was hot, next weld started fine.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyFishn View Post
    What specific machine are you using?

    My Idealarc 250 (round top) is said to have a 74v OCV - on AC with 230v input. My OCV is higher on 245v line voltage. The other kicker is on DC it is over 100v OCV (rectified and filtered).

    That aside, the Round Top will run 6010 all day long very easily. I found 6010 to be a real nice rod to have around. Right now I just have 1/8" but I want to see if I can find some smaller ones. It seems 6011 is easier to find, 6010 is easy to find in 1/8" and 3/32", but thats about it.

    My inverter machine (still new to it, haven't messed with the settings a whole lot yet) is another story - it is a challenge (at the moment) to run 6010. It surprised me, actually. I think I'm just spoiled from the Round Top.... I'll keep at it, that was one of my requirements for an inverter - that it run 6010 - and this one should so I'm still confident it will when tuned right. Its just an interesting comparison of how hard the rod can actually be to run.
    If you OCV is 100v on DC the suppressor capacitor is bad. This is located on the fan bulkhead above the rectifier assembly. The machine will weld fine especially 6010 but not nice when using wet gloves. Just a FYI


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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkie1957 View Post
    If you OCV is 100v on DC the suppressor capacitor is bad...
    Is that the case with all (transformer) welders? I think my Miller 330A/BP has OCV on DC of about 98V the last time I checked.

    My Miller Big Blue 251D engine drive has OCV of 88V if I turn the "fine" adjustment all the way up (58V on lowest setting)...never checked actual arc-voltages on either one, though...

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    I’m not sure but the faceplate should indicate the max OCV. It’s a safety thing probably from NEMA or some other sanctioning body. I know Idealarc250 machines weld great when the suppressor has failed but for units we resell the suppressor is replaced and OCV is checked


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  17. #15
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Well I can’t tell from pictures but rest assure me those two little pieces of 3/8 are not a comparison get some iron burn some rod you can’t compare with that little test ! When you have burned 50 lbs of each you will be able to tell the difference ! 6011 is exactly what willie B says it is a farm rod for AC MACHINES 6010 is for DC MACHINES .
    BURN SOME ROD ON SOME 3/8 scrap or !/2 and you will see the difference !

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Leogl View Post
    Well I can’t tell from pictures but rest assure me those two little pieces of 3/8 are not a comparison get some iron burn some rod you can’t compare with that little test ! When you have burned 50 lbs of each you will be able to tell the difference ! 6011 is exactly what willie B says it is a farm rod for AC MACHINES 6010 is for DC MACHINES .
    BURN SOME ROD ON SOME 3/8 scrap or !/2 and you will see the difference !
    Hey Leo,

    50 pounds will take a while but I’m on it! Anyway it wasn’t posted to ask about the differences. In the past the 6010/11 question comes up. There doesn’t seem to be a clear consensus on differences. One common theme is difficulty running w inverters. Admittedly this is a limited test but from what I observed they are similar which was expected. Of course I did notice considerable differences. 6010 was softer, more buttery, requiring tighter arc. One reply mentions scraping the flux. With my cheaters I could see I was scraping the flux on the pulling side. It certainly was nice to weld with.

    I also cut and etched the surface. There was good penetration.
    Finally this little machine has 20% duty cycle so I have to be mindful of not overrunning the thermal limits.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    One of the first things people forget is heat whipping action rod angle ! Turning it down doesn’t always help then you stay in one place too long if you have to make two passes so be it turn it up and go

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    6010 was .....requiring tighter arc..
    See that's the thing it doesn't when you have a proper machine that can actually run 6010. What you found was the "bandaid" to force it to work. I know this not because I'm a professional welder, but because I have done the research on my own machines, both high and low-dollar inverter stick welders. Also it doesn't help when you run 'generic' 6010s. They are the worst, meaning machine that can't run 6010 have even more trouble with generics! Run QUALITY 6010s like Böhler or Lincoln (perhaps Esab too but I have't tried them), and you will see a difference. Send me your address in a PM and I'll send some to you. I'd bet you'd see a some noticeable improvement.
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  22. #19
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Good morning Mr yofish,

    Please elaborate on your comment. I’ll happily take any instruction you’re willing to offer.

    Thanks.

    Regards.
    I would recommend taking a course at your local JC or other venue because you obviously don't know how to weld. It's pretty important knowing how to weld before you ask people about something you don't know anything about 'in the round' so to speak and most likely your query would be answered there. If you're forever to be hobby guy, stick to 6011 because it won't matter. Get some 6013- 7014, too and blaze away.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Yofish View Post
    I would recommend taking a course at your local JC or other venue because you obviously don't know how to weld. It's pretty important knowing how to weld before you ask people about something you don't know anything about 'in the round' so to speak and most likely your query would be answered there. If you're forever to be hobby guy, stick to 6011 because it won't matter. Get some 6013- 7014, too and blaze away.
    Good morning Yo,


    I figured you’d bite. And the tug on the line is as expected. CC is not really an option. Anyway I like your coarseness and honestly and feel like we could be good neighbors living beside one another. That said, you still haven’t elaborated. Again if you provide some guidance and work areas, I’ll test these and report back. You can do better than just say “don’t know how to weld.” Give me something I can work with.

    Regards.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    See that's the thing it doesn't when you have a proper machine that can actually run 6010. What you found was the "bandaid" to force it to work. I know this not because I'm a professional welder, but because I have done the research on my own machines, both high and low-dollar inverter stick welders. Also it doesn't help when you run 'generic' 6010s. They are the worst, meaning machine that can't run 6010 have even more trouble with generics! Run QUALITY 6010s like Böhler or Lincoln (perhaps Esab too but I have't tried them), and you will see a difference. Send me your address in a PM and I'll send some to you. I'd bet you'd see a some noticeable improvement.
    Good morning Oscar,

    Thank you for the offer. Since it appears that the circuit has sufficient inductance to work, I will make a purchase. These rods were kitted for a work related project - not my go-to choice. Given that, what is your recommendation for lower inductance transformer machines?

    Regards.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
    Good morning Oscar,

    Thank you for the offer. Since it appears that the circuit has sufficient inductance to work, I will make a purchase. These rods were kitted for a work related project - not my go-to choice. Given that, what is your recommendation for lower inductance transformer machines?

    Regards.
    I won't pretend to know the actual specifics; honestly only an EE that actually works as a welding machine engineer would I trust. But its a bit far fetched to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Do some research, look up machines. Dont trust Anything less than $500 band new, trust half of the models between $500-$1000, and trust 90% of reputable 6010 machines over $1000.
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  26. #23
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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    I won't pretend to know the actual specifics; honestly only an EE that actually works as a welding machine engineer would I trust. But its a bit far fetched to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Do some research, look up machines. Dont trust Anything less than $500 band new, trust half of the models between $500-$1000, and trust 90% of reputable 6010 machines over $1000.
    Misunderstanding here. Not changing machines. You mentioned sending 6010 rods. I need to purchase both 6010 and 6011. What was your recommendation for 6010? I’ve run the TSC 6011 just fine. Lincoln 6010p ?


    Nice read and summary here:

    https://www.esabna.com/us/en/news/ne...electrodes.cfm

    Secondly, good E6010 welders have a large inductor. An inductor resists change in electric current passing through it. They are said to “hold power” or act as a “power reserve” to keep the arc established as the operator manipulates the electrode. Conventional power sources and welding generators use large magnetics, such as copper wire wrapped around a ferrite core. Inverter-based power sources use electronics and much smaller magnetics to minimize overall weight.

    Regards.
    Last edited by Continuum; 04-29-2021 at 04:09 AM.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    Am I confused?
    I understood that OCV was the issue with 6010 & inverters. Older transformer based welders seem to have 75 to 100 Volt OCV. Inverters perhaps 1/2 that. A big old transformer will then drop to half voltage with an established arc.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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    Re: 6010 6011 side by side

    I can't really comment on the OCV issue with cellulosic rods on inverters/transformers generally, but on my diesel engine drive (3-phase alternator-type design), if I want a lot of "dig" with 6010, I set the range fairly high, and the "fine" adjustment (which also governs OCV) fairly low (like 10 or 12 out of 100) ... and I know from using a voltmeter on it that this gives an OCV of somewhere around 60-65VDC. (If I turn the "fine" adjustment all the way up, it will give OCV of about 88VDC.) Having the fine rheostat turned down makes 6010 rods fairly "sticky" when I first strike the arc, but once the arc is established, it has lots of dig -- you can drill holes with it (like pushing a garden hose down into the ground) without snuffing out the arc.

    On the other hand, if I'm burning 7018 on the engine drive, I turn down the main gear/tap, and turn UP the "fine" adjustment to somewhere around 75VDC. This makes it less likely to stick on startup, but also makes it more manageable ("buttery") with very little digging/gouging effect.

    It's kind of counterintuitive that I'm turning DOWN the OCV to burn 6010 on the engine drive, but I guess it all depends on a particular machine's V-A curve(s)... I can also burn 6010 using a lower tap and a higher "fine" adjustment (OCV) on the rheostat, but that will give less "dig" and I usually want plenty of dig if I'm burning 6010.
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