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Thread: Dual shield...is this possible?

  1. #1
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    Dual shield...is this possible?

    Before I ask this question, an answer many might be tempted to give is "get a bigger welder" but unfortunately that's not an option right now.

    I have a Lincoln SP135 Plus and usually run flux core .035 on it to get as much penetration as possible. I recently did a sculpture using 1/2" square rod which I forged, then welded. But for that I switched to mig + CO2 with serious pre-heat using a torch because it had a lot of crevasses where i couldn't clean out the flux core debris/smoke. (and I don't have a sand blaster)

    Something I read on here got me wondering and after some internet searching came across the possibility of using .035 dual shield with CO2 which sounded like it would give me even more penetration than plain flux core, getting the maximum possible out of the machine I have to use right now. Maybe bumping up the limit to 3/8" or more without pre heat?

    Any helpful thoughts about this?

    Also, would I still get the standard "smoke" debris around my welds that I would have to wire brush off?

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    It is E71T-1 w/CO2 works great
    I used for welding structure steel for almost 30 years.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    Before I ask this question, an answer many might be tempted to give is "get a bigger welder" but unfortunately that's not an option right now.

    I have a Lincoln SP135 Plus and usually run flux core .035 on it to get as much penetration as possible. I recently did a sculpture using 1/2" square rod which I forged, then welded. But for that I switched to mig + CO2 with serious pre-heat using a torch because it had a lot of crevasses where i couldn't clean out the flux core debris/smoke. (and I don't have a sand blaster)

    Something I read on here got me wondering and after some internet searching came across the possibility of using .035 dual shield with CO2 which sounded like it would give me even more penetration than plain flux core, getting the maximum possible out of the machine I have to use right now. Maybe bumping up the limit to 3/8" or more without pre heat?

    Any helpful thoughts about this?

    Also, would I still get the standard "smoke" debris around my welds that I would have to wire brush off?

  3. #3
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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Yea, dual shield is smokey, and leaves slag. I think you're running into the limits of thickness for that welder.
    Stick welders are fairly cheap compared to 240 volt mig welders, and if you dont weld over 1/4" very often, probably the way to go.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    No smoke film. Slag removes relatively easily when adjusted properly. Being on the top end of that machine might make slag more difficult to completely remove. Though on lower end you will probably like it. I weld with .045 wire down to 1/8 inch material. Have you priced the wire?

    The residual slag shows up when finishing. Especially electrical processes like galvanizing and powder coat. It is non electrically conductive.
    Last edited by tapwelder; 05-13-2021 at 11:30 AM.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    You will be limited to the 135 amps your machine provides. Outershield .035 can be run at lower setting like 22v-25v @130 amp like the lincoln spec sheet shows. You can experiment with it the same way you did with mig, using pre-heat and 100% CO2, and it should give you a much smoother looking weld. You will then have slag, and some gas smut around the weld. You should be able to chip and brush the weld clean. The biggest difference would be that dual shield would have a smoother bead appearance with less spatter/ BB's to clean up. It would not meet any structural codes, but since its art , you might want to drop the money on a spool to experiment with. I've used the Blue Demon .035" gas shielded wire, with CO2 between 100- 200 amps on 1/8"-1/4" steel and it has run well, and is much cheaper than the Lincoln Outershield wire. I actually found its cheaper to buy the blue demon solid and flux core wires at my local welding shop. They charge the same price as online(within a few cents of amazon), no shipping, and I'm usually there to get Propane /CO2 /Argon anyways.
    It does sound like you need a bigger welder. I needed a bigger mig for the factory, didn't want to spend a lot of money. Kept an eye on craigslist / FB and when the SnapOn YA-212 came up for a few hundred dollars without a bottle but lots of consumables I bought it. Old transformer units , can still run some nice beads. Linde , Hobart, ESAB, all have older 250 amp mig machines that work pretty well, and are going for cheap now days. You might have to upgrade the electric, but would be worth it if you could afford the time/money. Post some pic's if you can.

    Good luck
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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    To answer a couple comments: I do have a 220v stick welder, big old Lincoln and a bunch of 6010 and 7018 rods but my stick skills are pretty rough. I'd have to spend a long time getting up to speed.

    I can't find E71T-1 online for sale other than Amazon. They have some Chinese version and the Blue Demon but both have enough rough reviews that I've shied away from them. Some good reviews but enough bad ones that I got spooked. I haven't tried the LWS stores yet. A few online places have it but they say contact us for quotes. That aint happening. I'd like to try a 2lb spool first before going to 10lb.

    My main questions are: will it penetrate deeper with CO2 than regular flux core and can I use thicker metal without pre heat?
    Last edited by JD1; 05-13-2021 at 11:58 AM.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Try this one
    https://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/...lux-cored.aspx

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    To answer a couple comments: I do have a 220v stick welder, big old Lincoln and a bunch of 6010 and 7018 rods but my stick skills are pretty rough. I'd have to spend a long time getting up to speed.

    I can't find E71T-1 online for sale other than Amazon. They have some Chinese version and the Blue Demon but both have enough rough reviews that I've shied away from them. Some good reviews but enough bad ones that I got spooked. I haven't tried the LWS stores yet. A few online places have it but they say contact us for quotes. That aint happening. I'd like to try a 2lb spool first before going to 10lb.

    My main questions are: will it penetrate deeper with CO2 than regular flux core and can I use thicker metal without pre heat?

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    With the blue demon on Amazon many of the users are not sure what they're using. Many are running the wrong polarity, many aren't using gas when they should be, don't use the right amount of stick out, cant say I've ever had a problem with their material that I didn't cause ( let spool get rusty, or dropped spool and broke, bad rewind). All the blue demon stuff I've used has been sold through reputable retailers, with all the proper AWS intials on the spool. They're one of the original resellers of small packages of welding electrodes and wires. Ive used lots of their different wires , solid, gasless, 71-m, TIG lengths of aluminum, stainless, brazing rod, etc.. All bought through a welding shop, and or Mc Master Carr, or MSCDirect.

    If I were you , and the choice was between a SP135, and a AC-225, it would be the AC-225 and a 5 lb box of 5/32" 7014 . Just my personal preference, 7014 seems to be the easiest rod to run a nice smooth fillet weld with. Many call it a drag rod, even when you hold a tight arc it doesn't stick, even in AC, and often comes out smoother than a MIG weld. If your welding 1/2" steel , I would trust this a lot more. If you don't find any 5/32" on the shelf at home depot, or where ever you go, 1/8" would work OK too.

    good luck
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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Not sure but think Blue Demon might be part of the independent welding retailers group that has products with their own names. House brands if you will. I agree you'd be better off trying to stick weld something 1/2" thick. It's just your machine is too low of amps for the job. Yes CO2 will give better penetration with Flux-core but it isn't a miracle gas that adds amps or has a huge amount more penetration. 7014 is great for a nice smooth weld. If space is limited I'd probably burn a 6010/6011 in there to get good penetration and the slag wouldn't pose a huge problem. Would turn the heat up where even a bunch of tacks gets it welded up. Then maybe clean it good and go over with something like 7014.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    You will be limited to the 135 amps your machine provides.
    That machine doesn't really provide 135 amps for very long. It has a 20% duty cycle at 90 amps. It probably can only do 135 amps for really short periods of time and probably can't put out enough voltage to really properly run E-71T1 wire, even in the 0.035 size. Its just an educated guess, but I think dual shield in this welder is an exercise in futility.

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  13. #11
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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    I have lincolns dual shield in my feeder in .035 right now. It does work well with CO2. I think the biggest problem you are going to have is finding it in a smaller spool. I could only find it in 33 pounders.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Lincoln outershield .035" 10lb spool $50

    https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/ei...DEF:X:ED026804 l



    Blue Demon E71T-1/1M X .035 X 11LB Spool gas shielded flux core welding wire $40

    https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Demon-E7...31&sr=8-1&th=1

    I think USAweld has some too. I priced their stainless version and will probably get some of the 308 stainless for a Machine frame addition on one of the production lines. Its even harder to find the stainless gas shielded flux core on 10lb spools than mild steel.

    good luck
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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    That machine doesn't really provide 135 amps for very long. It has a 20% duty cycle at 90 amps. It probably can only do 135 amps for really short periods of time and probably can't put out enough voltage to really properly run E-71T1 wire, even in the 0.035 size. Its just an educated guess, but I think dual shield in this welder is an exercise in futility.
    110% agree with this.

    JD1,

    So since a larger machine is not an option, neither is running dual shied and obtaining decent results with your current machine. The whole "deeper penetration with CO2" is not a special feature of the wire alone. You must have the proper equipment to run it in the required mode of transfer in the first place. Since you don't, then it won't.
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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    First off totally agree your wire feed machine is not enough but you have a stick machine that it's not a big deal to have enough heat to do the weld. I'd suggest practicing with the stick welder on something similar to the project. Try different rods, techniques, etc. You have the equipment to do it. You just need to practice a little or a lot to get the skill to do it. I have faith you'll Git'r done successfully!

    Price out some Esab self-shield flux-core stainless wire. I worked at a place that dabbled in welding supplies and the military called asking if we could get this stainless wire. Called the Esab warehouse and they had 1 spool in stock. I think it was a 10lber. Boss was on holidays (paid in advance) so I ran the store. I figured out a mark up that was a pretty good deal and still made the shop money. It was $600 and some bucks! Boss came back from holidays and outside salesman told him about the expensive wire I sold. What did I get... No congrats on the wire but abruptly told I had to be laid off because of poor sales and he just couldn't afford to keep me. I was making les than $20/hr because I just needed a job at the time.

    Boss was a machinist and pretended he knew a lot about welding. Sold a good customer over $350 of new mig gun, drive rolls and equipment to run aluminum wire. I suggested a spool gun would be the best option but at least use a teflon liner. Boss said a teflon liner isn't required unless the gun is 25'!!! I knew it would be an impossible challenge for the customer who has never done Mig aluminum even with a 10' gun. In the end the customer had another shop do the welding for them because there was a bit of a rush. What a way to lose a customer, especially in a recession. A year later just before inventory he called me up asking if I wanted to come back. Hmmm, I did a complete and total inventory of everything in the shop by myself and it took over 3 weeks (was told I'd get help) because everything the shop that had ever been in stock was still on the inventory list. A lot of items that sold out were never marked as being sold. I had to hunt to hunt in the warehouse, the upstairs in the warehouse and the showroom looking for stuff that wasn't there. Boss comes in and I ask. He says sorry that was sold 2 years ago! I said my MX track was busy and I'd think about and call him back. I never called. I think he was shocked I didn't come back. I guess a classic example of "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth".
    Last edited by Welder Dave; 05-13-2021 at 07:35 PM.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    I agree with Welder Dave & Oscar.

    I did not notice it was 120 volt welder.
    When I was welding with E71T-1 W/CO2 I used 250 amp 60% duty up to 750 amp welders.

    I would up grade your welder to a 240 vold welder for this wire.
    I do not know why make 120 volt they just have power for most welding jobs


    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    110% agree with this.

    JD1,

    So since a larger machine is not an option, neither is running dual shied and obtaining decent results with your current machine. The whole "deeper penetration with CO2" is not a special feature of the wire alone. You must have the proper equipment to run it in the required mode of transfer in the first place. Since you don't, then it won't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    First off totally agree your wire feed machine is not enough but you have a stick machine that it's not a big deal to have enough heat to do the weld. I'd suggest practicing with the stick welder on something similar to the project. Try different rods, techniques, etc. You have the equipment to do it. You just need to practice a little or a lot to get the skill to do it. I have faith you'll Git'r done successfully!

    Price out some Esab self-shield flux-core stainless wire. I worked at a place that dabbled in welding supplies and the military called asking if we could get this stainless wire. Called the Esab warehouse and they had 1 spool in stock. I think it was a 10lber. Boss was on holidays (paid in advance) so I ran the store. I figured out a mark up that was a pretty good deal and still made the shop money. It was $600 and some bucks! Boss came back from holidays and outside salesman told him about the expensive wire I sold. What did I get... No congrats on the wire but abruptly told I had to be laid off because of poor sales and he just couldn't afford to keep me. I was making les than $20/hr because I just needed a job at the time.

    Boss was a machinist and pretended he knew a lot about welding. Sold a good customer over $350 of new mig gun, drive rolls and equipment to run aluminum wire. I suggested a spool gun would be the best option but at least use a teflon liner. Boss said a teflon liner isn't required unless the gun is 25'!!! I knew it would be an impossible challenge for the customer who has never done Mig aluminum even with a 10' gun. In the end the customer had another shop do the welding for them because there was a bit of a rush. What a way to lose a customer, especially in a recession. A year later just before inventory he called me up asking if I wanted to come back. Hmmm, I did a complete and total inventory of everything in the shop by myself and it took over 3 weeks (was told I'd get help) because everything the shop that had ever been in stock was still on the inventory list. A lot of items that sold out were never marked as being sold. I had to hunt to hunt in the warehouse, the upstairs in the warehouse and the showroom looking for stuff that wasn't there. Boss comes in and I ask. He says sorry that was sold 2 years ago! I said my MX track was busy and I'd think about and call him back. I never called. I think he was shocked I didn't come back. I guess a classic example of "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth".

  19. #16
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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Lots of uses for 120 volt wire feed welders. Body shop is pretty big.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    I agree with "not big enough welder to matter."

    But, what are you referring to as penetration? Depth of fusion sufficient to weld material together, or thinking the weld will penetrate 1/2" into the material without grinding?

    No matter if you use your mig or stick, penetration is obtained by metal prep - grinding.

    Depth of fusion can be increased by preheat like you did. Preheat can help ensure your weld doesn't just lay on the surface.

    Btw, 1/2" rod is not a very big heat sink, you should be fine welding that with solid wire in my experience.
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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    I agree with "not big enough welder to matter."

    But, what are you referring to as penetration? Depth of fusion sufficient to weld material together, or thinking the weld will penetrate 1/2" into the material without grinding?

    No matter if you use your mig or stick, penetration is obtained by metal prep - grinding.

    Depth of fusion can be increased by preheat like you did. Preheat can help ensure your weld doesn't just lay on the surface.

    Btw, 1/2" rod is not a very big heat sink, you should be fine welding that with solid wire in my experience.
    Exactly. Some people see 1/2" steel and the first thing that comes to mind is full penatration welds on a tank or a ship. On material like the op is using , hard wire is fine. No need for dual shield, 3/16" electrode, etc. Gouge out a little of the joint with a grinding wheel and weld away.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    What you saying may work for hobby welding.
    But if QUOTE the work you want the fastest way to make money.

    There are some types welding jobs you need to gouge out.
    On repair when I redoing someone else weld or crack I well gouge out the old weld or crack.
    Some times on Very thick plate also needs to bevel typically use a track Torch or machined bevel.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    Exactly. Some people see 1/2" steel and the first thing that comes to mind is full penatration welds on a tank or a ship. On material like the op is using , hard wire is fine. No need for dual shield, 3/16" electrode, etc. Gouge out a little of the joint with a grinding wheel and weld away.
    Last edited by smithdoor; 05-14-2021 at 10:48 AM.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    You all are such a help, thank you! I know I need to get back on stick practicing but mig/flux core is SO much easier if you're not adept at stick. Especially if you're shaky. My hands used to be stone still but not any more. Well, maybe I'll get a small Blue Demon spool and experiment with cut and etch compared to regular flux core. I'm just curious. You may be right about my machine but if the cost to experiment isn't much it would be fun to try. Cut and etch would tell the tale.

    I always bevel where possible and pre heat on larger stuff. Since nothing I do is structurally critical I get by.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    What you saying may work for hobby welding.
    But if QUOTE the work you want the fastest way to make money.

    There are some types welding jobs you need to gouge out.
    On repair when I redoing someone else weld or crack I well gouge out the old weld or crack.
    Some times on Very thick plate also needs to bevel typically use a track Torch or machined bevel.

    Dave
    For sure. I just can't think of too many settings where heavy plate welding in construction or industry is done with a 135 amp 110 volt welder. Kind of like comparing apples to kangaroos.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    You all are such a help, thank you! I know I need to get back on stick practicing but mig/flux core is SO much easier if you're not adept at stick. Especially if you're shaky. My hands used to be stone still but not any more. Well, maybe I'll get a small Blue Demon spool and experiment with cut and etch compared to regular flux core. I'm just curious. You may be right about my machine but if the cost to experiment isn't much it would be fun to try. Cut and etch would tell the tale.

    I always bevel where possible and pre heat on larger stuff. Since nothing I do is structurally critical I get by.
    I think you might like the 71M , I've used it on 120 volt machine with some success. It is a lot smoother of a weld, wets out better, and isn't as smokey as gassless flux core wire.
    Here is a picture of a truck dock hook device that gets hit every day where I had to add a 1/2" thick 2"x 2" square onto a 1/4" pad.
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    It was running with 75/25 gas and using a 100ft 120v ext cord that is plugged into an outlet by the staircase, and garbage can.

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    Cant hurt to give it a try, if it doesn't work out, you can use it when you get a bigger welder. Let us know how it did or didn't work for you, post some pic's of it.
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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    I agree
    Like one post here they auto body welding all you to due is look weld.
    Odds are they using 0.023 wire with gas. They do very little welding and can get away with 120 welder using 25 amp plug on 20 gauge.

    I look at what most of welding with ⅛" and up. If doing oriental iron some is 16 gauge tubing but it still goes up.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    For sure. I just can't think of too many settings where heavy plate welding in construction or industry is done with a 135 amp 110 volt welder. Kind of like comparing apples to kangaroos.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    Has anyone used the Welding City brand wire? They're the only one I can find that has an "experimental" 2 lb spool in E71T-1C. $15 and if it doesn't work, eh, not a big deal. Everything else is 10 lb or bigger.

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    Re: Dual shield...is this possible?

    They on Amazon witch were I purchased Welding City E71T-11 0.030 10 pound roll. Works great but I only look spec and price.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0170K2OFQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_TJXPKV80A7DE7H0GXMNY

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    Has anyone used the Welding City brand wire? They're the only one I can find that has an "experimental" 2 lb spool in E71T-1C. $15 and if it doesn't work, eh, not a big deal. Everything else is 10 lb or bigger.
    Last edited by smithdoor; 05-14-2021 at 10:32 PM.

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