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Thread: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

  1. #1
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    penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Ran across a welder review where someone said that you get better penetration and better looking welds by cranking .030 wire up versus .035 at a lower setting. Haven't run into that bit before. Is that correct?

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    [QUOTE=JD1;8816028]Ran across a welder review where someone said that you get better penetration and better looking welds by cranking .030 wire up versus .035 at a lower setting. Kind of an odd statement, no mention of how much lower on the .035. Anyway, any thoughts on that comment?

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Maybe the case on a smaller machine( 150 amp or so). There is an optimum range for wire. For example at 250 amps or so .035 wire reaches its limit and .045 performs better, primarily in short circuit. At higher wire speeds the wire tends to get " choppy", most likely from the feed starting to get erratic. Of course the same is true on the lower end as well.

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    They could be referring the current density - "the amount of electric current flowing per unit cross-sectional area."

    The same amps, coming off different diameters of wire, has a higher current density with smaller wire.
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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    I have not noticed any difference between 0.030 and 0.035 hard wire except maybe at the very bottom top end of their usable ranges. On a typical joint I would run, say .120 wall square tube for example, the welds look the same to me.

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Interesting comments. So where could I find the top and bottom ranges of .023, .030 and .035? I guess I'm learning something new today.

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    I wouldn't know where such data would be available. I would say with .035 wire 100 ipm would be the low end and 550 ipm towards the upper end. Of course different machines will vary or not even go high or low enough on wire speed for it to be a factor

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    door chart of your favorite welder is a good start: On my Multimatic 255, it says 0.024 is good in short circuit mode from 24 gauge to 3/8ths of an inch. 0.030 wire is good from 20 gauge to 1/2 inch (although above roughly 1/4-3/8ths I am definitely preferring 0.035) and 0.035 wire is good from the same 20 gauge to 1/2 inch, but below 1/8th of an inch I am going to favor 0.030 or 0.024. That's just me. YMMV

    Here's some food for thought: https://airgasthinks.com/mig-busters...size-mig-wire/

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Would depend on a few variables such as mode of metal transfer. Spray arc .030" would have better penetration and probably appearance than .035" in short circuit/globular transfer or possibly at the same machine settings. Machine could make a difference too if it was too small for a larger wire. Statement makes sense but is kind of pointless. Turn the .035" up and it could have more penetration and just as good of appearance.

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Would depend on a few variables such as mode of metal transfer. Spray arc .030" would have better penetration and probably appearance than .035"
    Interesting. I just bought a MM 255 and the door chart doesn't even have settings for 0.024 or 0.030 wire in pulsed spray mode. Only 0.035 and 0.045. I wonder if they were trying to save money by not programing the logic for the smaller diameter wires or if there is a technical reason they did that.

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    This info is from an old post on the Hobart Forum:

    "11-09-2007, 02:01 AM
    The wire feed speed is in direct relation to the amperage at a given wire stickout (length of wire from the contact tip to the arc). The voltage is in the case of a CV (wire welder) the constant and is the length of the arc from the end of the wire to the weld pool, as you change the wire stick out the amperage changes to maintain the weld voltage. A normal wire stick out for short circuit mig welding is 1/4".

    The following example may help you understand this with .035 ER70S-6 wire and C25 shield gas set at 20 SCFH flow.
    1/4" wire stickout, volts 17 and wire feed speed 150 IPM = 100 amps
    3/8" wire stickout, volts 17 and wire feed speed 150 IPM = 50-60 amps due to the resistive heating of the wire between the tip and the arc the weld current drops to the level required to maintain the set voltage.
    If you were to reduce the stickout to 1/8" the weld current would increase to approximatly 150 amps to maintain the set voltage.

    Typical min and max ranges of each wire diameter for ER70S-6

    .024 minimum 30A 15V 105 IPM WFS, maximum 150A 21V 710 IPM WFS
    optimum vert. setting 80A 18V 310 IPM WFS
    optimum horiz. setting 110A 21V 465 IPM WFS

    .030 minimum 50A 17V 95 IPM WFS, maximum 200A 23V 600 IPM WFS
    optimum vert. setting 100A 18V 235 IPM WFS
    optimum horiz. setting 150A 20V 385 IPM WFS

    .035 minimum 50A 18V 75 IPM WFS, maximum 225A 25V 500 IPM WFS
    optimum vert. setting 150A 18V 185 IPM WFS
    optimum horiz. setting 215A 22V 415 IPM WFS

    I hope this helps more than confuses you."

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Seems like the difference between digging a hole with a pressure washer vs a garden hose. Strange the review compared them at different settings. What is a better looking weld? Smaller? Where they manipulated the same?

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Quote Originally Posted by Louie1961 View Post
    Interesting. I just bought a MM 255 and the door chart doesn't even have settings for 0.024 or 0.030 wire in pulsed spray mode. Only 0.035 and 0.045. I wonder if they were trying to save money by not programing the logic for the smaller diameter wires or if there is a technical reason they did that.
    Maybe because it is smaller wire and not as commonly used for spray arc or heavier sections where spray arc can be used?

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Maybe because it is smaller wire and not as commonly used for spray arc or heavier sections where spray arc can be used?
    I'd say so as well. On my MIGs, 030 ER70 wire can do down to about 0.025" or so, so no real need for pulse with 023 wire. Anything thinner can just as easily be done with short arc.
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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    This info is from an old post on the Hobart Forum:

    "11-09-2007, 02:01 AM
    The wire feed speed is in direct relation to the amperage at a given wire stickout (length of wire from the contact tip to the arc). The voltage is in the case of a CV (wire welder) the constant and is the length of the arc from the end of the wire to the weld pool, as you change the wire stick out the amperage changes to maintain the weld voltage. A normal wire stick out for short circuit mig welding is 1/4".

    The following example may help you understand this with .035 ER70S-6 wire and C25 shield gas set at 20 SCFH flow.
    1/4" wire stickout, volts 17 and wire feed speed 150 IPM = 100 amps
    3/8" wire stickout, volts 17 and wire feed speed 150 IPM = 50-60 amps due to the resistive heating of the wire between the tip and the arc the weld current drops to the level required to maintain the set voltage.
    If you were to reduce the stickout to 1/8" the weld current would increase to approximatly 150 amps to maintain the set voltage.

    Typical min and max ranges of each wire diameter for ER70S-6

    .024 minimum 30A 15V 105 IPM WFS, maximum 150A 21V 710 IPM WFS
    optimum vert. setting 80A 18V 310 IPM WFS
    optimum horiz. setting 110A 21V 465 IPM WFS

    .030 minimum 50A 17V 95 IPM WFS, maximum 200A 23V 600 IPM WFS
    optimum vert. setting 100A 18V 235 IPM WFS
    optimum horiz. setting 150A 20V 385 IPM WFS

    .035 minimum 50A 18V 75 IPM WFS, maximum 225A 25V 500 IPM WFS
    optimum vert. setting 150A 18V 185 IPM WFS
    optimum horiz. setting 215A 22V 415 IPM WFS

    I hope this helps more than confuses you."

    https://weldtalk.hobartwelders.com/f...ire-feed-speed
    Thanks Broccoli, that looks helpful...and confusing. But when I can focus and study on it, I'm sure it will be what I was asking for.

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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    Thanks Broccoli, that looks helpful...and confusing. But when I can focus and study on it, I'm sure it will be what I was asking for.
    Just keep in mind those "optimum settings" do not take into account material thickness somehow. Which is kinda weird as you would not be welding 16ga using 100A on 030 wire.
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    Re: penetration - .030 cranked up or .035 lower

    On my MM 210, it runs 030 like a champ, but my 4 other migs all run 035. I dont run much past 3/8.

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