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Thread: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

  1. #1
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    Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    1) I'm thinking seriously about buying one in the next few days and was curious if it will actually do 3/8" in one pass, non-beveled on 220v. Specs say so but that could be just marketing hoo ha.


    2) I'll have to have 220 run to my shop, since I have to get it done what amp service should it be? (I see 220v, 230v, 240v...is that something I need to pay attention to?}


    3) Are there adapters available to convert dryer type plugs to whatever outlet will be installed for that Hobart? Reason I'm asking is because I run my Lincoln Stick welder off a 50' extension cord with dryer plugs. I converted the welder and cord to that a few years ago when I bought the welder since that was the only way I could run it.

    I suppose I could convert the cord and welder back to standard welder plugs but wondered if an adapter was available so I wouldn't have to do that. And by the way what's the official name for welder type plugs? Sorry for the basic question, that's an area I don't know a lot about.
    Last edited by JD1; 06-09-2021 at 03:48 PM.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    See badass extension cords.com/welder
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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    I just rob a cord off of a junk electric stove and add a 6-50r receptacle that matches the standard welder plug. Haven't had any issues with overload as it's generally #6 or 8 wire on the range cords.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    1) I'm thinking seriously about buying one in the next few days and was curious if it will actually do 3/8" in one pass, non-beveled on 220v. Specs say so but that could be just marketing hoo ha.


    2) I'll have to have 220 run to my shop, since I have to get it done what amp service should it be? (I see 220v, 230v, 240v...is that something I need to pay attention to?}


    3) Are there adapters available to convert dryer type plugs to whatever outlet will be installed for that Hobart? Reason I'm asking is because I run my Lincoln Stick welder off a 50' extension cord with dryer plugs. I converted the welder and cord to that a few years ago when I bought the welder since that was the only way I could run it.

    I suppose I could convert the cord and welder back to standard welder plugs but wondered if an adapter was available so I wouldn't have to do that. And by the way what's the official name for welder type plugs? Sorry for the basic question, that's an area I don't know a lot about.
    1) The Hobart Handler 190 I owned would not do full penetration welds on 3/8ths plate. I doubt if the extra 20 amps would make that big of a difference. But honestly, I doubt many people really trust short circuit MIG (regardless of the machine) for anything structural that is thicker than 1/4 to 5/16ths of an inch. When I had my Millermatic 252, I did short circuit on some 1/2 inch plate just to see if I could. It didn't quite get full penetration at the recommended settings. For the thick stuff, I always just switched to gas shielded flux core (outershield Lincoln 71M). It burned hotter and was easier to run out of position.

    2. If you want to future proof yourself, go with 6 or 8 gauge conductors for the circuit. A standard 50 amp circuit is 6 gauge, but in a dedicated welding circuit, you can actually over rate the breaker and run up to 100 amps on 6 gauge, depending on the welder duty cycle. All the newer inverters are likely to run fine on 8 or 10 gauge. The HH210 manual calls for 14 gauge conductors and says the welder will draw 24 amps. If you look at the requirements for the new Ironman 240, it calls for 8 gauge wire and a 70 amp breaker. So that ought to give you an idea of size if you want to future proof. In the US, the standard is 240 volts for single phase residential supply, but many people (and even some manufacturers) call it 220 or 230 volts.

    3) Yep. https://www.amazon.com/S7-adapter-We...s%2C205&sr=8-5

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Excellent. Thank you.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    1) I'm thinking seriously about buying one in the next few days and was curious if it will actually do 3/8" in one pass, non-beveled on 220v. Specs say so but that could be just marketing hoo ha.
    No.

    If you look in the manual it even has an * next to the settings for 3/8"

    *Multiple passes may be required depending on the application and joint design.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Had an electrician out today to quote running the line. I told him 220v 50amp. He questioned whether the welder actually needed a 50 amp line. I'm also going to run my Lincoln 225 ac/dc on it.

    From looking at the 210 specs, it looked to me like it does need a 50 amp line. Does anyone know if I'm correct?

    #6 wire is more expensive than #8, I think he was trying to save me money since copper prices are through the roof now.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    You wouldn't need 50 amps for the Hobart, 40 would probably do . I would go with the #6 wire, yes it's more expensive but labor shouldn't be any different and then you have the ability to use it to full effect if ever needed.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    You want 50 amps for the stick welder if they both run on the same circuit. 3/8" fillet would be a 2 pass weld for maximum strength but for most general welding, a weaved bead ran hot would be more than sufficient.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Thank you both.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Just remember if you are doing a dedicated welder circuit, normal wire sizing doesn't apply. You are allowed to use the duty cycle of the welder in calculating ampacity. For instance, when I had my syncrowave (it drew 92 amps max) I was within code with 6 gauge wire and a 125 amp breaker. So a 50 amp circuit for a dedicated welder outlet doesn't need to be 6 gauge. The Lincoln AC-225 manual says you can use 10 gauge wire for runs under 100 feet and recommends 8 gauge over 100 feet. The hobart Handler 210 only requires 14 gauge per the owners manual. Don't go too crazy on the sizing of your new outlet. 10 gauge will do it for those two welders, so long as it is a dedicated outlet for use with only those two welders.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    After you said that, I checked the manuals and #14 seems pretty puny for that Hobart on the 220 side although they did say that was the minimum. Nothing else will be on that circuit. I'll get him to quote #10, #8 and #6, I'm curious to see how huge the differences are. Didn't used to be near as bad pricewise as it is now.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    After you said that, I checked the manuals and #14 seems pretty puny for that Hobart on the 220 side although they did say that was the minimum. Nothing else will be on that circuit. I'll get him to quote #10, #8 and #6, I'm curious to see how huge the differences are. Didn't used to be near as bad pricewise as it is now.
    Remember that welders, because they have a duty cycle and are not (supposed to be) a continuous load, allow you to use lighter wire on a dedicated welder circuit than you could use (and still meet code) on an equal-ampacity circuit where the load would be continuous. So your wiring can cool down while your welder cools down. For more, see NEC article 630...

    ETA: Oops...I see Louie said the same thing already. I guess I should read the thread before commenting.
    Last edited by Kelvin; 06-14-2021 at 05:17 PM.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    After you said that, I checked the manuals and #14 seems pretty puny for that Hobart on the 220 side although they did say that was the minimum. Nothing else will be on that circuit. I'll get him to quote #10, #8 and #6, I'm curious to see how huge the differences are. Didn't used to be near as bad pricewise as it is now.
    As Louie said, you'd be fine with either 8ga or 10ga depending on the length of the run. One of my welder outlets is a 40A breaker with 8ga wire (had some left over from another project) and it's more than enough for any normal welding with my MM350P, even cranked up on thicker aluminum.
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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Electrician said he checked current code and if you have a 50 amp breaker, you have to use #6 wire irrespective of what's on the circuit. So #6 it is.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    You need a new electrician. That's bunk. Point him to section 630 of the code. He either is ignorant or purposefully gouging you.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by JD1 View Post
    Electrician said he checked current code and if you have a 50 amp breaker, you have to use #6 wire irrespective of what's on the circuit. So #6 it is.
    That's just an electrician who's either ignorant or trying to cover his butt. The NEC Article 630 is very specific, and very clear on this topic. The conductors can be sized roughly 50% of what you would normally run on a given breaker. They even go so far as to say you can calculate the conductor size and breaker size, and if you get nuisance trips, go up another breaker size over the already generous rating.

    Some electricians won't follow the NEC because they say "some day somebody will plug a continuous load into that outlet down the road and I'll get sued"....that's why you mark the outlet "welder only".
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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    The electrician is probably going by the 50 amp breaker and 50 amp outlet and sizing wire by the standard amp capacity for the length and all that. The derated wiring for a welder circuit is an exception of course but it is by any means a guarantee that the circuit could or would be overloaded. Myself I wire circuits to the normal rating so I have nothing to worry about in the future. Personally other than extension cords for welders I haven't seen a circuit that was sized( or undersized) for running a welder.

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    The electrician isn't gouging. I got 2 prices, one from a company with high ratings on Angies List and the other from an electrician that works for a big company but does side work. The price from the first company was absolutely obscene. Cost more than the welder for a very simple run of less than 50'. I ran a 20 amp line to that point myself last year. But I'm not comfortable at all with big boy wiring so I gave the 50 amp install a pass. Obviously the second guy has the job. I'll just leave it at #6 so no worries later when we move and I won't have to mark it "welder only".

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    The NEC Article 630 is very specific, and very clear on this topic. The conductors can be sized roughly 50% of what you would normally run on a given breaker.
    I am not an expert but as I understand it....

    I have heard this a few times and although it seems superficially correct, it is not the whole story. It can be interpreted as meaning that for a 50A welder, a 50A breaker is required but the cable run can be de-rated to 50% of the ampacity generally required for a 50A breaker.

    In fact, the ampacity of the cable is determined by the Ieff of the welder that is to be used. This is the effective supply current taking the duty cycle of the welder into account. Having determined the required ampacity of the cable, the breaker can be up to 200% of what is normally required for that ampacity.

    The circuit becomes a welder only circuit for a welder with a supply requirement of Ieff (as used in the calculations). A replacement welder with the same maximum supply current but with a higher duty cycle will overload the circuit.

    Is there an electrician in the room that can verify or otherwise my understanding of the situation?

    Thanks
    Jack

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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    I am not an expert but as I understand it....

    I have heard this a few times and although it seems superficially correct, it is not the whole story. It can be interpreted as meaning that for a 50A welder, a 50A breaker is required but the cable run can be de-rated to 50% of the ampacity generally required for a 50A breaker.

    In fact, the ampacity of the cable is determined by the Ieff of the welder that is to be used. This is the effective supply current taking the duty cycle of the welder into account. Having determined the required ampacity of the cable, the breaker can be up to 200% of what is normally required for that ampacity.

    The circuit becomes a welder only circuit for a welder with a supply requirement of Ieff (as used in the calculations). A replacement welder with the same maximum supply current but with a higher duty cycle will overload the circuit.

    Is there an electrician in the room that can verify or otherwise my understanding of the situation?

    Thanks
    Jack
    That's why I said "roughly" because it tends to work out to be about double, but it is always wise to do the calculations and be sure. The welder's Ieff can certainly be used, but it's not always provided. If it's not provided you use the amp draw/duty cycle for the welder to get a multiplier from the Article 630: Table 630.11(A).

    Yes, you could run into an issue if you set up a circuit for one machine and one with a higher duty cycle is later substituted, but it would probably take a pretty drastic situation to cause a problem.

    If you take a hypothetical machine that is listed as drawing 50A at a 20% duty cycle you would use a multiplier of .45 to get an ampacity of 22.5 for the conductors. In that case anybody being smart would go with conductors the next size up, so 30A 10ga conductors and a 50A breaker. If you then replaced that welder with one that had a 60% duty cycle the multiplier would be .78 for an ampacity of 39, so 40A 8ga conductors and a 50A breaker. I tend to doubt that one wire size is going to cause a dangerous condition.
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    Re: Question about the Hobart 210 MVP

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
    That's why I said "roughly" because it tends to work out to be about double, but it is always wise to do the calculations and be sure. The welder's Ieff can certainly be used, but it's not always provided. If it's not provided you use the amp draw/duty cycle for the welder to get a multiplier from the Article 630: Table 630.11(A).

    Yes, you could run into an issue if you set up a circuit for one machine and one with a higher duty cycle is later substituted, but it would probably take a pretty drastic situation to cause a problem.

    If you take a hypothetical machine that is listed as drawing 50A at a 20% duty cycle you would use a multiplier of .45 to get an ampacity of 22.5 for the conductors. In that case anybody being smart would go with conductors the next size up, so 30A 10ga conductors and a 50A breaker. If you then replaced that welder with one that had a 60% duty cycle the multiplier would be .78 for an ampacity of 39, so 40A 8ga conductors and a 50A breaker. I tend to doubt that one wire size is going to cause a dangerous condition.
    Thanks for that and fair enough.

    I commented because approximations are sometimes used by others without considering the limitations (or underlying assumptions) of the approximation.

    By the way, the regs (and many welder manuals) provide an expression to calculate Ieff and, as you say, if that fails just use the tables.

    Jack

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