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Thread: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

  1. #1
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    where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    I'm looking to get some info on innershield welding wires, when to use which ect.

    I'm wanting to set up a small portable MIG machine (180 amp, 27 volts max) with gasless wire for fast field repair welding (think patches in rock chutes, non critical light structural ect) but I have almost no experience with innershield wires.

    lincoln wires are readily available where I am so I'm happy to use them as the yardstick and then I can compare specs to find other brands if i need to.

    I need to be able to run in all positions, flat, vertical and overhead and preferably without a weld size limit as I know some of the lincoln NR wires can have.

    what should I look for to run in a small machine, I can run up to .045 wire diameter in the machine I'm looking at.
    Last edited by ttoks; 06-24-2021 at 06:36 AM.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    Innershield NR 212

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    most innershield type of wires will have a limit size anyways. Something about the quenching effect of large parts having a negative effect on the weld puddle. But Innershield 211 or 212 is likely the way to go. I would use 035 211, as 212 is only available in 045 or larger, which might be too large of a wire to run on your 180A machine.
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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    .045 innershield will be fine on that machine. On the material you described .045 would be my choice.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post
    I'm looking to get some info on innershield welding wires, when to use which ect.

    I'm wanting to set up a small portable MIG machine (180 amp, 27 volts max) with gasless wire for fast field repair welding (think patches in rock chutes, non critical light structural ect) but I have almost no experience with innershield wires.

    lincoln wires are readily available where I am so I'm happy to use them as the yardstick and then I can compare specs to find other brands if i need to.

    I need to be able to run in all positions, flat, vertical and overhead and preferably without a weld size limit as I know some of the lincoln NR wires can have.

    what should I look for to run in a small machine, I can run up to .045 wire diameter in the machine I'm looking at.
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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    like posted earlier Lincoln NR212 or 211. Great for all purpose repairs and looks good!
    It seemed like a good idea at the time!

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    NR211 .030 to .045 has a 5/16 plate thickness limit. NR212 .045 has a 3/4 plate thickness limit.

    If machine will run .045 this gives you a lot more options.
    Last edited by cwby; 06-25-2021 at 09:16 AM.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    A lot depends on if you need low temperature impact strength (7018 equivalent) or just a general purpose wire. Here is a Lincoln guide that should provide valuable input.

    https://www.lincolnelectric.com/asse...3MP/c32400.pdf

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    Quote Originally Posted by cwby View Post
    NR211 .030 to .045 has a 5/16 plate thickness limit. NR212 .045 has a 3/4 plate thickness limit.

    If machine will run .045 this gives you a lot more options.
    being that it is quenching of the weld that seems to be the issue, could a nice preheat (say 300F) increase the limit with .035 wire?

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    A lot depends on if you need low temperature impact strength (7018 equivalent) or just a general purpose wire. Here is a Lincoln guide that should provide valuable input.

    https://www.lincolnelectric.com/asse...3MP/c32400.pdf
    Honestly probably not, this setup won't weld anything critical, if i do need to weld anything critical it will be with either dual shield now that i've found some .035 dual shield wire or with 7016/7018.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    Not sure about some of the other wires but NR211 needed something like 18 passes on 3/4" plate to meet specs. This was with the older NR211 before the NR211MP. Now it looks like Lincoln lowered the max. thickness it's recommended for. I ran some .068" and it was nice to weld with but way too much smoke. A Lincoln rep., who ran the Lincoln demo shop, said the white floaty things in the smoke were like milk and wouldn't harm you. Never asked if he had some nice swamp land for sale.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Not sure about some of the other wires but NR211 needed something like 18 passes on 3/4" plate to meet specs. This was with the older NR211 before the NR211MP. Now it looks like Lincoln lowered the max. thickness it's recommended for. I ran some .068" and it was nice to weld with but way too much smoke. A Lincoln rep., who ran the Lincoln demo shop, said the white floaty things in the smoke were like milk and wouldn't harm you. Never asked if he had some nice swamp land for sale.
    I spoke with a lincoln engineer yesterday about NR211 and NR212, he said that the main problem with multipass with both of them is aluminium build up in the weld from the flux, however NR212 was alot better and can generally meet specs to weld much thicker than the 3/4 inch it's rated for, and they they have passed WPS's with a few heavy machinery manufactures to repair up to 100mm thick section with it, NR211 is E71t-11 spec, and NR212 is E71TG-G, so I found a local supply for some E71TG-G as lincoln doesn't import NR212 into my country, and NR211MP is around $11 a pound here which is ridiculous.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    I purchase from Amazon E71T-11 0.030.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post
    I'm looking to get some info on innershield welding wires, when to use which ect.

    I'm wanting to set up a small portable MIG machine (180 amp, 27 volts max) with gasless wire for fast field repair welding (think patches in rock chutes, non critical light structural ect) but I have almost no experience with innershield wires.

    lincoln wires are readily available where I am so I'm happy to use them as the yardstick and then I can compare specs to find other brands if i need to.

    I need to be able to run in all positions, flat, vertical and overhead and preferably without a weld size limit as I know some of the lincoln NR wires can have.

    what should I look for to run in a small machine, I can run up to .045 wire diameter in the machine I'm looking at.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    Not sure about some of the other wires but NR211 needed something like 18 passes on 3/4" plate to meet specs. This was with the older NR211 before the NR211MP. Now it looks like Lincoln lowered the max. thickness it's recommended for. I ran some .068" and it was nice to weld with but way too much smoke. A Lincoln rep., who ran the Lincoln demo shop, said the white floaty things in the smoke were like milk and wouldn't harm you. Never asked if he had some nice swamp land for sale.
    A bridge collapsed and it was determined the Innershield wire used had too much aluminum and it was a major factor in the failure. Lincoln had to do a lot of back tracking and BSing to avoid being sued though the nose. That's when earthquake specs. came into play I believe.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    I am glad I do not live in earthquake country.
    It would a real pain.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    A bridge collapsed and it was determined the Innershield wire used had too much aluminum and it was a major factor in the failure. Lincoln had to do a lot of back tracking and BSing to avoid being sued though the nose. That's when earthquake specs. came into play I believe.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    if, CEP, was here, he'd post pics of big const projects (pre northridge earthquake), where 211 was used heavily. he'd then tell u about all the bend test coupons that were fine w/ 211. he liked/respected 211. however, the composition of it might be less regulated now, than it was before. me and sales guy read ingrediants on a box about 1o yrs ago, and it was real vague and foreign sounding

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Welder Dave View Post
    A bridge collapsed and it was determined the Innershield wire used had too much aluminum and it was a major factor in the failure. Lincoln had to do a lot of back tracking and BSing to avoid being sued though the nose. That's when earthquake specs. came into play I believe.
    That's half of the story Dave... the rest of the story involves some really poor fabrication work with huge fitup gaps and missed welds. I reckon there was a bit of "spin" from various parties on that.

    Having said that, the NR211MP I tried was really quite brittle and not strong. Maybe it was just my setup or technique, i dunno. I wouldn't rate it as strong as 7018 or solid wire. i did some rough destructive tests on some 1/4" with single pass, and i wasn't impressed. And NR211MP is supposed to be some of the best of the E71TG-G types...!
    Last edited by Munkul; 06-30-2021 at 03:41 AM.
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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    That's half of the story Dave... the rest of the story involves some really poor fabrication work with huge fitup gaps and missed welds. I reckon there was a bit of "spin" from various parties on that.

    Having said that, the NR211MP I tried was really quite brittle and not strong. Maybe it was just my setup or technique, i dunno. I wouldn't rate it as strong as 7018 or solid wire. i did some rough destructive tests on some 1/4" with single pass, and i wasn't impressed. And NR211MP is supposed to be some of the best of the E71TG-G types...!
    From what I understand NR211 isn't E71TG-G, it's E71T-11, the NR212 is the E71TG-G and doesn't have the brittleness problem to the same extent that the 211 does.

    And by the looks of it that above bridge collapse must be where NR232 came from, being that it "Meets AWS D1.8 seismic lot waiver requirements"

    https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-a...ncolnElectric)

    EDIT yeah looking at lincoln's website the 211MP is the -11 and 212 is G-G

    https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-a...ncolnElectric)

    https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en/p...eldnr212_fcaws
    Last edited by ttoks; 06-30-2021 at 04:36 AM.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    Sorry you're absolutely right there E71T-11.
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    I think Lincoln NS3M (E70-T4) wire was also used on heavy sections of the bridge and it has aluminum in the flux to give the high deposition rates. All I remember was showing the data sheet for the earlier NR211 to my welding teacher and he was shocked it took so many passes to meet the AWS spec. for it. CEP preferred Hobart Fabshield 21B over NR211 but he burned a lot of NR211. For sure the seismic requirements came after the bridge collapse. Some said Lincoln had to really scramble and provided a bunch of (bogus) technical jargon to confuse everybody to try and save their azzes from being sued for millions, maybe billions. Lincoln has some great products but they also have an arrogance that other suppliers/manufactures don't have. It's very apparent when you talk to Lincoln reps. that this arrogance is passed down through the ranks. Lincoln is also big on keeping employee's long term. Except in really bad recessions Lincoln hasn't laid any workers off. They have been praised for it.

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    Re: where to find resources on gasless MIG wire

    ur right, he did prefer hobart 21b, i forgot about that. i do reember when conversation like this about 211 being down talked, he'd butt in, saying how many bend tests of welders re-qualifying in the field, w/oproblems. also, that may not be the last time a weld electrode manufaccturer will have to answer/involve in failure. in 2006 i was on a job in same yard/port segments of sf bay bridge were being built/loaded on a barge. we built the upper deck, and china built the lower deck (or visa versa) in segments, and barged them over . and the latter spells trouble. and to add, while installing, there were weld problems rumored. one was that a very high depostion wire used on columns was cracking. others were welders claiming inspectors were being bribed, to approve shotty welds. cal trans final reply to that, was, the hired welders were disgruntled and making up stories, after supposedly cutting out welds to re-inspect them.. anyway, its an area that gets shaken, and its about due for a big one, so we will see. theres always been problems w/ the bay bay bridge (even the old one) . but theres never problems w/ the golden gate
    Last edited by 123weld; 06-30-2021 at 07:51 PM.

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