MM252 welding auto body panels and which wire to use

[M J D]

No, my bird nest is a snarl between feed rollers & liner.

Sounds like the inlet guide distance is too far away from the rolls. Something isn't right as the 252 is the best feeding mig Ive ever used. Only feed issues I've encountered is .024 wire thru the 15' gun.

[Oscar]

That is one thing I was going to suggest. The inlet guide on the gun-side of the rollers should be merely a few thousandths away from the rollers. WillieB, can you go and actually measure the distance between inlet guide and the intersection point of the two rollers. If you can post a pic that would be great too.

The other thing I was going to suggest. Can you un-do either the back-end or the front-end of the gun and actually measure the liner diameter? Maybe you did not get an actual 023-specific liner. Can you use the Oxy-Acet tip cleaners? (to see which is the largest that will go into the liner, without forcing it of course) We can compare results to my 023-specific liner.

[Country Metals]

I dont like to run 024 due to the bird nesting, or maybe it just doesnt like me. But you have to have all 024 stuff to run 024. So contact tip, liner, drive rolls, and specially the guide tube. If your guide tubes and the inlet for the mig gun has a .060 hole in it, that is where it will start the bird nesting.

Also, you need to put proper tension on the spool so, as mentioned before, it doesnt free spool while tacking. If you have run in adjustment, make it something like 50% if you have it low at 25%, 024 doesnt like to always transfer from soow to fast speed under an arc.

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[Willie B]

That is one thing I was going to suggest. The inlet guide on the gun-side of the rollers should be merely a few thousandths away from the rollers. WillieB, can you go and actually measure the distance between inlet guide and the intersection point of the two rollers. If you can post a pic that would be great too.

The other thing I was going to suggest. Can you un-do either the back-end or the front-end of the gun and actually measure the liner diameter? Maybe you did not get an actual 023-specific liner. Can you use the Oxy-Acet tip cleaners? (to see which is the largest that will go into the liner, without forcing it of course) We can compare results to my 023-specific liner.

I measure actual liner diameter on the little Miller gun purchased for .023" wire as .056". They obviously want a bit of extra room, but how much extra, I don't know.
All three guns are adjusted for welder end of the liner to clear the feed rollers by only thousandths of an inch.
Lateral adjustment of rollers have been checked numerous times & adjusted slightly.

The little gun has only Miller with logo on it. I may have saved the packaging it came in.

[mla2ofus]

Like I've already said I don't understand why my MM175 has never had trouble feeding numerous 11 lb rolls of .023. It still has the liner that came with it. I tried the 1 lb roll of .035 flux core that came with it and it fed fine also.

[M J D]

Like I've already said I don't understand why my MM175 has never had trouble feeding numerous 11 lb rolls of .023. It still has the liner that came with it. I tried the 1 lb roll of .035 flux core that came with it and it fed fine also.

Probably has a shorter gun than the 15 foot m-25.

[Oscar]

I measure actual liner diameter on the little Miller gun purchased for .023" wire as .056". They obviously want a bit of extra room, but how much extra, I don't know.
All three guns are adjusted for welder end of the liner to clear the feed rollers by only thousandths of an inch.
Lateral adjustment of rollers have been checked numerous times & adjusted slightly.

The little gun has only Miller with logo on it. I may have saved the packaging it came in.

My liner is a smidge smaller, about 0.047". Not all that different.

Does the liner reach all the way to the back of the contact tip? if it happened to be cut short, that could also be a culprit.

[Willie B]

My liner is a smidge smaller, about 0.047". Not all that different.

Does the liner reach all the way to the back of the contact tip? if it happened to be cut short, that could also be a culprit.

I now see you are onto something.
My M100 was ordered by Airgas' problem solver. After he came & checked the welder for alignment problems & problems persisted, he said he could sell me a gun that would solve my problem. Being a 100 amp gun, ordered specifically for .023, I did what I shouldn't do, assumed it was set up specifically for .023.

I got out the manual, stock liner is "good" for .023 thru .045. What will a 100 amp gun do with .045?

I'll get a new liner & report back.

Now what to do with .045 Dual Shield in the big Bernard gun?

[Oscar]

I did what I shouldn't do, assumed it was set up specifically for .023.

My thoughts exactly: the amperage rating of the gun has little to do with the sole proposition of running a specific wire diameter. If I wanted to I could set up my 500A air-cooled MIG gun to run 023 wire. Is it practical? Of course not; but it is doable if I wanted to. My point is that just because it's a physically smaller gun doesn't mean that it will always be better for smaller diameter wire if the whole system is not setup for it.


I'm not guaranteeing it, but I think the liner is 50% of the problem. Just MHO. Let me ask you this, does your 023-specific mig gun have this connector on the machine end:




?

[Willie B]

Had I found the gun on a website I'd not have imagined it was set up specifically for .023. The fellow who sold it to me represented it as such. I made the mistake of trusting he knew what to order. I shouldn't have done that. I still wonder what I'd do with .045 in a 100 amp gun?

Not exactly. Mine brings the spiral liner to the feed rollers.

[Oscar]

Had I found the gun on a website I'd not have imagined it was set up specifically for .023. The fellow who sold it to me represented it as such. I made the mistake of trusting he knew what to order. I shouldn't have done that. I still wonder what I'd do with .045 in a 100 amp gun?

Not exactly. Mine brings the spiral liner to the feed rollers.

Ok I see. I will check to see if I can order an 023-specific carbon graphite liner for that back-end if you'd like to try it out. I have a feeling that it will fix the issue, but cannot guarantee it. Let me see what they say.

Can you unscrew the liner so I can see the inner portion as well?

[Willie B]

I apologize for my tardy response. Sundays the voices are most demanding. What the voices tell me to do seems always to take up 25 or more hours on Sunday. Voices are most active on Sunday.
Here is my liner, fits a Miller M100 gun 15'.

I didn't know graphite liners existed. In every other field there are lubricants to facilitate a pull (I'm an electrician). I can push 100' through straight conduit, but first bend will stop the push. I can pull 650' and up to 360 degrees of turn in theory. A bit of lube makes theory reality.

Friday we had a surprise. A hyper funded private school suddenly needed 6 more runs of CAT6 200' long. 40' will be exposed where billionaires might notice. Sequestered decision makers couldn't be bothered to be there. The ##1 custodian, in charge of anything sequestered decision makers can't be bothered with decreed: "we will allow a 3/4" EMT conduit, nothing more.

It is surprising what can be done. I practiced a straight run. Yes it worked if all cables could be parallel. When pulling in conduit we make every effort to keep conductors side by side. Conductors never cooperate! They cross.

Friday, I was surprised to see it was often a question of pulling back a few feet, adding a bit of lube. We made it work! I hate working for rich people, but they do provide the challenges upon which I grow.

[Willie B]

[Oscar]

I didn't know graphite liners existed.

I first learned of carbon-graphite liners when I bought my first HTP MIG. They are what facilitate push-only aluminum welding using an otherwise standard MIG gun that they offer in 8-10 ft lengths. Teflon is also available; it is slicker than a steel liner, and my initial testing with a Teflon-liner I bought on EBay is when I discovered my little 200A MIGs could push solid & cored wired through an ~18ft Teflon liner. So if it could do it through a Teflon liner, it should be even easier through a carbon-graphite liner. Sure enough, the 20-foot MIG guns I ordered with carbon-graphite liners work great, even with a standard 1-drive/1-follower feeder.

Not only is it even slicker than Teflon with a lower drag/coefficient of friction, I've found it is a harder material as well, so it would take just a little bit more to wear it out than Teflon. Trying to scratch them both with my fingernail, the Teflon starts to "catch" and fray easier than the carbon-graphite. The downside is that it is relatively expensive (compared to regular liners), but not so much that it is out of reach either. Thanks for the pic. I'll let you know what they say with regards to the machine end side of the liner for your machine. I just saw that your M100 is 15 feet long. That for sure isn't helping either; usually most places tell you to keep it to no more than 10ft for 023 wire no matter what.

[mla2ofus]

That explains why I haven't had much trouble with mine with the 10' lead.

[Willie B]

I first learned of carbon-graphite liners when I bought my first HTP MIG. They are what facilitate push-only aluminum welding using an otherwise standard MIG gun that they offer in 8-10 ft lengths. Teflon is also available; it is slicker than a steel liner, and my initial testing with a Teflon-liner I bought on EBay is when I discovered my little 200A MIGs could push solid & cored wired through an ~18ft Teflon liner. So if it could do it through a Teflon liner, it should be even easier through a carbon-graphite liner. Sure enough, the 20-foot MIG guns I ordered with carbon-graphite liners work great, even with a standard 1-drive/1-follower feeder.

Not only is it even slicker than Teflon with a lower drag/coefficient of friction, I've found it is a harder material as well, so it would take just a little bit more to wear it out than Teflon. Trying to scratch them both with my fingernail, the Teflon starts to "catch" and fray easier than the carbon-graphite. The downside is that it is relatively expensive (compared to regular liners), but not so much that it is out of reach either. Thanks for the pic. I'll let you know what they say with regards to the machine end side of the liner for your machine. I just saw that your M100 is 15 feet long. That for sure isn't helping either; usually most places tell you to keep it to no more than 10ft for 023 wire no matter what.

I stand corrected. The Miller part # for .023 wire is 15' as shipped. This liner cut to length is actually 10' 5".

[Oscar]

I stand corrected. The Miller part # for .023 wire is 15' as shipped. This liner cut to length is actually 10' 5".

Oh ok, got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[smithdoor]

I agree with G-ManBart.
023/024 wire will do good job.
Try keep short cable on gun . This thin of wire will bird nest a lot on longer guns

Dave

Hey everyone,

I have a millermatic 252 that I usually run .035 wire in. I'm going to weld in some lower door skins and what not onto my old plow truck (they're rusted out). I've got a fair amount of cutting and welding to do on this old truck and I'd like to set up the welder to do a decent job rather than just try to muddle through it. I'm going back and forth on a couple of options... Any advice on this would be really appreciated.

Option #1: Put a spool of .030 in the welder and just use that. I'd only need to flip the drive rollers around and change out the tip to do this.

Option #2: Put a spool of .024 in the welder. This looks like I'd need to buy and install new drive rollers, new liner, and new tips. Does this sound correct? I think this might be worth doing, but the parts add up to about a hundred bucks, plus the cost of the wire..

Option #3: Figure out if I can run .024 in my spoolmatic 15a and just use that.

I keep reading that this can be done ok with .030 wire, but .024 seams to be preferred. I've also read about using some esab easygrind wire or using a silicon bronze wire, but I have zero experience with these options. It seams like people use the silicon bronze wire with 100% argon (I do have a tank of this as well as a tank of c25).

Thanks,
Dan

[Oscar]

This thin of wire will bird nest a lot on longer guns

Dave

What is just as important is that this thin of a wire will birds nest in a lot of longer guns in part due to the excessive clearances inside the "023 liner", which I feel is too over-sized, because it is generally made to accommodate 030 wire as well.

Willie,

Good news about the carbon graphite liner! Check PMs.

[albrightree]

Maybe try some of the Lincoln Super Arc L-56 .025 MIG welding wire. I like it for thin wall(14-16ga) square tube and sheet metal (16-20ga). Never really had any problems (birdnesting) , but I'm using 10ft 100L gun when running this wire. Its the light duty gun that comes with the smaller lincoln mig welders. Its easy to change, light , parts are available cheap at Home depot. I'm sure there must be a Miller equivalent, a light duty mig gun that will fit(usually they're only 10ft )

Good Luck

[smithdoor]

Most just use a spool gun for thin wire or use a short welding cable with the gun will do same job.

Dave

What is just as important is that this thin of a wire will birds nest in a lot of longer guns in part due to the excessive clearances inside the "023 liner", which I feel is too over-sized, because it is generally made to accommodate 030 wire as well.

Willie,

Good news about the carbon graphite liner! Check PMs.

[Oscar]

or use a short welding cable with the gun will do same job.

Dave

Tell that to WillieB. I'm sure he would disagree

[Willie B]

Tell that to WillieB. I'm sure he would disagree

Yup, I concur. 10' gun birdnests too. Turns out my liner was made for .045" wire.

[vwguy3]

Willie, have you checked the alignment of the drive roll groove/carrier to the inlet of the liner?

[Willie B]

Willie, have you checked the alignment of the drive roll groove/carrier to the inlet of the liner?

I have, my 36 year old son has, the Airgas troubleshooter has, and the formerly Miller authorized welder repair tech (retired) has.