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  1. #1
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    Spray transfer mig torch angle

    Iím welding (multiple) 30 inch 2g t joint on 3/8 mild steel with ~3/8 toes. My company requires this weld to be run at 26v 280 wfs with 1.6 mm wire on 90 argon 10 co2. Iím running a straight push getting equal toes but canít seem to get it to fill in perfect. Any tips? My boss and the other welder donít have any advice and think the welds Iím putting are good, but I know they could be better.

  2. #2
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    Re: Spray transfer mig torch angle

    Quote Originally Posted by racecar616 View Post
    Iím welding (multiple) 30 inch 2g t joint on 3/8 mild steel with ~3/8 toes. My company requires this weld to be run at 26v 280 wfs with 1.6 mm wire on 90 argon 10 co2. Iím running a straight push getting equal toes but canít seem to get it to fill in perfect. Any tips? My boss and the other welder donít have any advice and think the welds Iím putting are good, but I know they could be better.
    Why are you pushing????? Does your procedure require you to push? Depending on the power supply electrical characteristics pulling will get better penetration to the root and wet the toes better IMO. Only with alum or flux core would I push. Even then I pull sometimes when in a pinch.
    Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR"
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  3. #3
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    Re: Spray transfer mig torch angle

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    Why are you pushing????? Does your procedure require you to push? Depending on the power supply electrical characteristics pulling will get better penetration to the root and wet the toes better IMO. Only with alum or flux core would I push. Even then I pull sometimes when in a pinch.
    I'm confused - perhaps I need to retrain.

    Jack

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    Re: Spray transfer mig torch angle

    I personally like to pull spray transfer slightly, not massively but by maybe 10 degree's, I find I get a nice bead profile that way, pushing usually gives me a slightly concave weld profile.

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    Re: Spray transfer mig torch angle

    Iíll try that perhaps I was pulling at slightly too steep of an angle

  6. #6
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    Re: Spray transfer mig torch angle

    So straight push Iím running perpendicular with maybe 5-10 degrees push because I found it to give me a way better better bead. I started out pulling and my toes werenít filling in and the bead was rolling over

  7. #7
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    Re: Spray transfer mig torch angle

    I'll be more specific with my query (not a disagreement or challenge). My query is based on curiosity more than anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    Why are you pushing????? Does your procedure require you to push?
    Depending on the power supply electrical characteristics pulling will get better penetration to the root and wet the toes better IMO.
    Going by the number of question marks, this is something you are passionate about. Many people are but I can't find any evidence that one is better than the other. Some of the weld, etch and tests - including one done by weld.com with Select-Arc - show no difference using MIG, spray, 1/2" plate & 2F.


    Only with alum or flux core would I push. Even then I pull sometimes when in a pinch.
    In the weld.com/Select-Arc test using flux core (FCAW-S), the Select-Arc fellow said that drag was recommended for that process (same context as for MIG). There were two reasons:

    1. There is a higher chance of slag inclusions but that is more a technique issue than a basic shortcoming.

    2. There was greater penetration.

    As far as I know (and my experience is not extensive), filler specification documents list typical applications, metallurgical data and positional data. There is nothing about pushing or pulling.

    There are a lot of parameters that will affect a weld so push or pull might go in and out of fashion depending on other factors but there does not appear to be any clear answer as to which is preferred.

    It seems to me that to say one is preferred over the other requires additional information like:

    - for what reason is it preferred?

    - in what context is it preferred?

    because what is preferred in one situation might be disastrous in another.

    Thanks

    Jack

  8. #8
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    Re: Spray transfer mig torch angle

    2 things were discouraged when I was steel mig/arc trained in college. Pushing and downhill progression. Both can result in lack of fusion to the root and a concave weld profile, slag inclusions, and possible overlap in the toes. Sometimes you have to do it in a pinch but I hate it.

    However alum mig is always a spray arc process with smut being deposited in the root. Pushing lifts the smut out of the root and the coefficient of heat tranfer gives decent wetting at the toes. Pulling alum mig may bunch up the puddle causing due to the arc transfer from said puddle.

    That is the way I was trained, it works for me, and I stand by it faithfully.
    Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR"
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  10. #9
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    Re: Spray transfer mig torch angle

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelon View Post
    2 things were discouraged when I was steel mig/arc trained in college. Pushing and downhill progression. Both can result in lack of fusion to the root and a concave weld profile, slag inclusions, and possible overlap in the toes. Sometimes you have to do it in a pinch but I hate it.

    However alum mig is always a spray arc process with smut being deposited in the root. Pushing lifts the smut out of the root and the coefficient of heat tranfer gives decent wetting at the toes. Pulling alum mig may bunch up the puddle causing due to the arc transfer from said puddle.

    That is the way I was trained, it works for me, and I stand by it faithfully.
    Thanks for responding. As I noted earlier, I am just curious, I'm not selling anything.

    There is an old "rule of thumb" - if it creates slag, you drag. However, it seems you were trained to do the opposite.

    Welding downhill is another thing. Some are adamant that one should never weld downhill because it always causes lack of penetration. Other say with thin material or for a root pass it may be better to weld downhill to prevent blow-through. This is a variation of what I said in my previous post regarding what is appropriate in the circumstances.

    None of this causes me to lose sleep or be unable to weld but it does surprise me.

    Regards
    Jack

  11. #10
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    Re: Spray transfer mig torch angle

    Pushing and pulling are both acceptable techniques to used in GMAW spray transfer. Dragging creates deeper penetration but requires a higher skill level to operate. Pushing creates a more uniform weld profile with less chance of undercut. Both techniques are essential to learn but ultimately it is up to the employer on which one they want emphasized (if your not self employed).

    If we set up two 1/4" material thickness T-joints and used both methods.... which one would have superior penetration and profile? Well that would come down to who is doing the welding! In spray arc welding penetration should never be a problem. So is dragging therefore necessary? I was taught to push only, but have since realized that is complete nonsense.
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