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    determined metal thickness needed

    Hello everyone. I've been welding for a few years now and always had the thickness of materials always told to me or i just really made it way over kill. How do you go about doing the calculations on determining the actual thickness needed. Like if i wanted to build trailing arms for my truck for example. I know i can cut them out on a plasma table out of some 1/4 but i feel like thatis way overkill. Thanks for the input.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Experience,study engineering or copy a proven design or all of the above. If you copy a proven design be sure to discover and copy the same alloys and heat treatment. Sometimes the shorter, quicker and cheaper solution is what you've already described....overbuild until you have enough of the first one, experience. Observe lots of failures and try to understand causality. Some failures are not under built, just overly abused. Mostly have fun and learn from you failures and sucesses.
    ---Meltedmetal

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Meltedmetal View Post
    Experience,study engineering or copy a proven design or all of the above. If you copy a proven design be sure to discover and copy the same alloys and heat treatment. Sometimes the shorter, quicker and cheaper solution is what you've already described....overbuild until you have enough of the first one, experience. Observe lots of failures and try to understand causality. Some failures are not under built, just overly abused. Mostly have fun and learn from you failures and sucesses.
    Thank you.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Meltedmetal View Post
    Observe lots of failures and try to understand causality. Some failures are not under built, just overly abused.
    For examples of this, please head over to the trailer fail thread. Very interesting under/over builds.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by welndnfab View Post
    Hello everyone. I've been welding for a few years now and always had the thickness of materials always told to me or i just really made it way over kill. How do you go about doing the calculations on determining the actual thickness needed. Like if i wanted to build trailing arms for my truck for example. I know i can cut them out on a plasma table out of some 1/4 but i feel like thatis way overkill. Thanks for the input.
    While there are many methods to "determine" the metal thickness required, as meltedmetal mentioned, if you want to be able to apply and work out the proper equations to work out numerical calculations for stress/deflection, then that is exactly what needs to be done via engineering. I hope you have a strong background in physics/analytical mechanics (IOW you need to know calculus, as a lot of stress/deflection models require integrating).

    Area Moment of Inertia or Moment of Inertia for an Area - also known as Second Moment of Area - I, is a property of shape that is used to predict deflection, bending and stress in beams. - Engineeringtoolbox.com

    Obviously there is FEA analysis that can do all the stress/deflection analysis you need, and it surely has just a steep a learning curve.
    1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig!



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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Educated guess (and experience) a lot of the time. Sometimes you want thicker material for rigidity more than for strength. Looking at commercially made items similar to what you're building and/or wanting yours the same strength or stronger.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    While there are many methods to "determine" the metal thickness required, as meltedmetal mentioned, if you want to be able to apply and work out the proper equations to work out numerical calculations for stress/deflection, then that is exactly what needs to be done via engineering. I hope you have a strong background in physics/analytical mechanics (IOW you need to know calculus, as a lot of stress/deflection models require integrating).

    Area Moment of Inertia or Moment of Inertia for an Area - also known as Second Moment of Area - I, is a property of shape that is used to predict deflection, bending and stress in beams. - Engineeringtoolbox.com

    Obviously there is FEA analysis that can do all the stress/deflection analysis you need, and it surely has just a steep a learning curve.
    Most of the failures today come from modern "math". They rarely use math to make something better they use it to cut into the ten-fold safety margin that has existed in buildings and cranes for over a hundred years. As far as software analysis it is a gamble as well. Experience is the only solution. Looking at modern builds is a bit dangerous, they are often built only to perform in a perfect world not in the actual world under the actual conditions it will face. Once you see a few devices or structures fail from the slightest deviation of "normal stress" you realize that the people who designed it are either on drugs or live in an isolated bubble away from the rest of the world or both. Experience is the best.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    "Design of Welded Structures" by Omer W. Blodgett is a book that is (or was) very commonly used by structural engineers. It's a heavy book for its size and for its math.
    https://www.amazon.com/Design-Welded.../dp/9998474922

    https://www.jflf.org/SearchResults.asp?Cat=81

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    one lower iq method people left out is load to failure (destructive) testing, and it's less truthful cousin load testing.

    The final test for cranes and load bearing equipment is usually a "proof" test. Overload to the intended safety factor and pray to the sweet metal gods up above, or down below (can't figure out which side metal work is on yet!).

    BE READY FOR PROOF TEST TO FAIL, be as overly safe as possible with live things first and equipment second.

    Of course it's not always possible to do with every project etc [inset not so common sense disclaimers here].

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    There two basic ways
    Find trailer you like and is right size and just copy the metal size.
    The other way is to calculate the metal need for trailer

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by welndnfab View Post
    Hello everyone. I've been welding for a few years now and always had the thickness of materials always told to me or i just really made it way over kill. How do you go about doing the calculations on determining the actual thickness needed. Like if i wanted to build trailing arms for my truck for example. I know i can cut them out on a plasma table out of some 1/4 but i feel like thatis way overkill. Thanks for the input.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    If the math is done right and use the right table it will not fail.
    I did metal work engineering for 30 years and everything is still standing today. Even in tornado world.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    Most of the failures today come from modern "math". They rarely use math to make something better they use it to cut into the ten-fold safety margin that has existed in buildings and cranes for over a hundred years. As far as software analysis it is a gamble as well. Experience is the only solution. Looking at modern builds is a bit dangerous, they are often built only to perform in a perfect world not in the actual world under the actual conditions it will face. Once you see a few devices or structures fail from the slightest deviation of "normal stress" you realize that the people who designed it are either on drugs or live in an isolated bubble away from the rest of the world or both. Experience is the best.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    If the math is done right and use the right table it will not fail.
    I did metal work engineering for 30 years and everything is still standing today. Even in tornado world.

    Dave
    There is no way that math could be working when it is being done on structures that are engineeringly unsound or the math is done on methods that should not be allowed. There should not be welding on buildings but they do some math and it is all good to weld. You may have added in some common sense and used some formulas to determine what you believe to be the right calculation but I can assure you the math being taught today will not create safe structures. We have seen it here and on other forums, someone with the current method of calculating something comes along and claims that a certain formula is what you should use. But when you use the old school method that is infallible it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the new math was made to allow poor buildings to go up. But those that believe what they are taught rather than look for the truth or question what they are taught support what is obviously wrong. It has been this way for thousands of years, that is what America was supposed to be about individual spiritual freedom.

    It is like an outside support wall in a building, it supports half the weight of the floor it supports. If you cantilever the floor over the wall, it suddenly supports the whole weight of the floor it supports. I had supposedly intelligent individuals tell me that is not so. It got to a point they were basically making me explain why someone would teach them that if it was not true, even though they knew from the demonstrations I did, the graphics I presented, and the explanations I offered that what I was saying was accurate. They just could not live with reality, they now knew how far from reality they were and they just didn't want it to be true.

    Most people do not know but they did away with the actual scientific method after World War Two. They took out step two, "demonstrate the hypothesis you wish to prove with your experiment to your peers." Since that was removed we no longer have science or engineering. They dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and claimed it was an experiment. They went on to claim that the experiment had proven the tremendous force of cohesion that when broken liberated that great force. They also stated in the same breath that we should not fear because they were going to keep the secret of the atom and atom bomb from the citizens of earth. This leaves me wondering if they are not citizens who are they. George Washington claimed that although we take on the role of the soldier we do not give up the citizen. So that act seems pretty unamerican. My point is that science, math, history, chemistry, English, and physics, have been tainted on purpose by the government that openly claimed it was for our own good and safety. A stupid citizen is a safe citizen was their motto. We must be the safest lot of idiots on earth. My point is that if you end an apparent force of cohesion there would be no energy liberated the objects would just no longer be held together it would be a rather lackluster event. But people do not ask them to demonstrate a force of attraction, even though there are no forces of attraction in our universe, only apparent forces of attraction that can only be explained by pushing forces. Universal Scientists did ask Chaswick and his crew to demonstrate their hypothesis, and they could not so instead they took out that step from the scientific method, and now it proves nothing.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    There is no way that math could be working when it is being done on structures that are engineeringly unsound or the math is done on methods that should not be allowed.
    I think I will take my engineering theory from the likes of Galileo, Bernoulli and Euler, and not McCormick.


    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    It is like an outside support wall in a building, it supports half the weight of the floor it supports. If you cantilever the floor over the wall, it suddenly supports the whole weight of the floor it supports. I had supposedly intelligent individuals tell me that is not so.
    Being a somewhat 'intelligent individual', I will state that is depends on the span (length) of the cantilever to the main span - and also on the floor framing type (eg steel beams, 2-way slabs etc). There is a 'sweet spot' where a cantilever will provide such a distribution, but commonly it does NOT.
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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingenuity View Post
    I think I will take my engineering theory from the likes of Galileo, Bernoulli and Euler, and not McCormick.




    Being a somewhat 'intelligent individual', I will state that is depends on the span (length) of the cantilever to the main span - and also on the floor framing type (eg steel beams, 2-way slabs etc). There is a 'sweet spot' where a cantilever will provide such a distribution, but commonly it does NOT.
    As soon as you create a cantilever, you double the weight on the wall supporting it. That is just the plain and simple truth of a lever. The fulcrum has twice the weight on it than it had before you cantilevered it. Often because things were engineered better years ago you do not see it fail. However as "math" is employed to get buildings to go up the slightest movement and suddenly walls are cracking and windows are shattering. This is not something I am dreaming up this is modern "math" at work in the real world.

    Of course, in both cases, the weight of the I-beam is also upon the H-beam as well as the payload. As you build a wall past the H-beam, it doubles the weight of the wall and whatever it is supporting above. This can cause the wall to not only support the wall above but the entire weight of the floor it is supporting. As soon as you cantilever you double the weight of whatever it is supporting before cantilevering it.

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    This is another one that is totally misunderstood because they don't want to see the reality and the crap they have built.

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    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    As soon as you create a cantilever, you double the weight on the wall supporting it. That is just the plain and simple truth of a lever.
    William:

    That is incorrect. You only 'double the weight' if the cantilever span equals the backspan. For any other ratio of backspan/cantilever the distribution of support reaction is as follows:


    Name:  CANTILEVER BEAM.jpg
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    Name:  CANTILEVER BEAM TABLE.png
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    This is first-year engineering statics - for some folks it was high school math/physics.


    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    This is another one that is totally misunderstood because they don't want to see the reality and the crap they have built.
    Evidently, it appears to be misunderstood by you. The scale is NOT calibrated to read half the load placed upon it. The scale reads the tension in the cable - and assuming frictionless pulleys - is equal to the load at one end. If the load at each end was NOT equal the loading system (in this example) would move (displace) until it was in equilibrium.

    If you removed the left 25 lb pail (for example), and replaced it with a fixed support - like a clevis to secure the left end of the scale cable - and only have the 25 lb on the right end, the scale will read 25 lb. Action, reaction and equilibrium.
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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by smithdoor View Post
    I did metal work engineering for 30 years and everything is still standing today. Even in tornado world.

    Dave
    oh, c'mon mr smith, we already listened how hot its been , and now we got tornadoes too ?

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingenuity View Post
    No, according to me (and science, physics, engineering, the real world, etc. etc.) - and the explanation below - the single upper cable attached to the dock crane will be acted upon by 180,000 lbf of force i.e. sum of the force in each of two container cables as the two are connected to the one dock crane cable.

    Free body diagram of the upper pulleys and the 2-to-1 cable connection:

    Name:  180k pulley.png
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    Well if you agree that there is 180,000 pounds created by the two suspended weights then the two cables holding them are also under 180,000 pounds and the single cable holding both cables is being subjected to 360,000 pounds. Just like a hanging scale a cable holding a 25 pound weight off the ground against the force gravity and motionless is under 50 pounds of stress. The scale and the cable salesmen just sells them like they do to make it seem simpler for the new guy.

    The scale measures half the force upon it. A free falling weight with a cable and hanging scale attached is under 25 pounds of gravity force. When you grab the scale and apply 25 pounds of force against the force of gravity the scale registers 25 pounds but that is only measuring one of the forces acting upon it.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    are the listed values weights against gravity or purely tension against fixed points?

    I think the confusion lies in jumping between the two, force vs weight.
    Last edited by SlowBlues; 08-06-2021 at 04:41 PM.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    A cantilever by definition has to resist the forces levered against it, which depend on forces against and length of lever.

    Every lever has a point of fulcrum, if lever length and forces on either end remain the same the force on the fulcrum point will not change if moved, only the ratios on either end. essentially the same as a cable split into two under tension with fixed points, gear/belt reduction, etc. all the same idea.

    Most often the best way to simplify it is to look at both tension AND compression in each member. The "wall" of the cantilever doesn't need to support twice the weight, but it does need to resist two forces (compression and tension) in opposite directions (one side of base of wall pulling up, one side pushing down).
    Last edited by SlowBlues; 08-06-2021 at 04:43 PM.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    Well if you agree that there is 180,000 pounds created by the two suspended weights then the two cables holding them are also under 180,000 pounds and the single cable holding both cables is being subjected to 360,000 pounds. Just like a hanging scale a cable holding a 25 pound weight off the ground against the force gravity and motionless is under 50 pounds of stress. The scale and the cable salesmen just sells them like they do to make it seem simpler for the new guy.
    No, the upper cable has 180,000 lb, and each of the two lower cables has 90,000 lb - so combined, the two lower cables total 180,000lb. The sum of the vertical forces at the connection between the 2 lower cables to the 1 upper cable must = zero.


    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    The scale measures half the force upon it. A free falling weight with a cable and hanging scale attached is under 25 pounds of gravity force. When you grab the scale and apply 25 pounds of force against the force of gravity the scale registers 25 pounds but that is only measuring one of the forces acting upon it.
    No, the scale does NOT measure half the force, it is measuring the only force that is applied to the system - 25 lb - that is in static equilibrium.


    ==> So you are not believing my math, and my graphics was not intuitive to you, so lets try this:


    EXPERIMENTAL PROOF: The foundation upon which scientific theory is proven.



    I used my DILLON tension gauge and a setup that mimics your 'scrap yard scale' pictorial:

    First, measured the mass of the 2 x 25 lb weights to verify that they are indeed 50 lb total - measured in the vertical direction, using the DILLON gauge.

    Photographic proof: A little hard to read in this photo, but it states 50 lbf. But I have other photos I can share if you need further proof. And the weights are stamped with 25lb - and they have been checked from the USPS scale because I use them to calibrate my bicycle power meter.

    Name:  DSCF1019.jpg
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    Next, I applied 2 x 25lb masses to each end of a horizontal beam with end pulleys attached, connected via ropes (different color ropes to show that there is no 'sleight-of-hand'), with a centrally placed DILLON tension gauge (the same one I used to verify the 50 lb weights).

    Photographic proof:

    Name:  SCALE.png
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    Then read the DILLON tension gauge:

    Photographic proof:

    Name:  DSCF1015.jpg
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    And low and behold, the gauge read 50 lbf.

    Exactly what static equilibrium states.

    So, all is good, the earth still spins on its axis, the sun will shine tomorrow, William McCormack is a believer in science, and I do NOT need to get a refund on my engineering degree. Life is good!
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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    All i know is, if you decide not to tighten the cap on an argon cylinder because it is cocked and on " Tight enough", then proceed to carry the cylinder by holding the cap....then you observe one of Newton's laws of motion. An object (cap) in motion will remain in motion until it meets an opposing force(chin) of equal or greater magnitude.

    I also know that lifting blocks have reduced capacity when lifting vertically. Since the mass being lifted and the lifting force both act on the block.


    Perhaps there is confusion of what is actually happening? I'on kno.


    I still don't know what a trailing arm is.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingenuity View Post
    No, the upper cable has 180,000 lb, and each of the two lower cables has 90,000 lb - so combined, the two lower cables total 180,000lb. The sum of the vertical forces at the connection between the 2 lower cables to the 1 upper cable must = zero.





    No, the scale does NOT measure half the force, it is measuring the only force that is applied to the system - 25 lb - that is in static equilibrium.


    ==> So you are not believing my math, and my graphics was not intuitive to you, so lets try this:


    EXPERIMENTAL PROOF: The foundation upon which scientific theory is proven.



    I used my DILLON tension gauge and a setup that mimics your 'scrap yard scale' pictorial:

    First, measured the mass of the 2 x 25 lb weights to verify that they are indeed 50 lb total - measured in the vertical direction, using the DILLON gauge.

    Photographic proof: A little hard to read in this photo, but it states 50 lbf. But I have other photos I can share if you need further proof. And the weights are stamped with 25lb - and they have been checked from the USPS scale because I use them to calibrate my bicycle power meter.

    Name:  DSCF1019.jpg
Views: 87
Size:  111.6 KB


    Next, I applied 2 x 25lb masses to each end of a horizontal beam with end pulleys attached, connected via ropes (different color ropes to show that there is no 'sleight-of-hand'), with a centrally placed DILLON tension gauge (the same one I used to verify the 50 lb weights).

    Photographic proof:

    Name:  SCALE.png
Views: 84
Size:  942.5 KB


    Then read the DILLON tension gauge:

    Photographic proof:

    Name:  DSCF1015.jpg
Views: 89
Size:  87.2 KB

    And low and behold, the gauge read 50 lbf.

    Exactly what static equilibrium states.

    So, all is good, the earth still spins on its axis, the sun will shine tomorrow, William McCormack is a believer in science, and I do NOT need to get a refund on my engineering degree. Life is good!

    The only problem is if the tension meter reads 50 there are 100 pounds of force acting on the cable. That is why ropes and cables and booms suddenly snap because you are working with twice the force that the labels on the weights and equipment report. In your mind when you lift 25 pounds it is no big deal, but your body is actually under 50 pounds of force to do so. The cable in the come-along when lifting 300 pounds is actually under 600 pounds of force which explains why it sounds like a guitar string being struck.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Here is another way to look at it. Now if I am correct, then the scales record half of the total force they are under when supporting an object. I am not suggesting chaos and madness, I am suggesting that most do not understand how a scale is actually calibrated. In the graphic below each hanging scale is correctly reporting the weight of the object hanging underneath it. Yet you can see the dilemma if the ceiling has a force of fifty pounds of downward force upon it. The hanging scale only reports the gravities effect on the weight, not the counterforce holding the scale-up.

    Name:  ceilingscales.jpg
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    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    I have been played by a fool.

    I did some 'research' on the infamous 'William McCormick' and he/she/it is notorious on this site (and several others, namely, Miller, Hobart etc) on the insanity of this very subject (and several others).

    This subject - along with the very same graphics that McCormick uses above - were the cause of his ban back in 2010: https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/4...igure-this-out

    You can believe what ever you wish, but rejecting/disputing scientific fact is denialism.

    Surely, after more than a decade of your 'crusade' on this subject, you must stop and think "maybe I am wrong".

    Because you are wrong, William McCormick. Sincerely, wrong.
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    Re: determined metal thickness needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingenuity View Post
    I have been played by a fool.

    I did some 'research' on the infamous 'William McCormick' and he/she/it is notorious on this site (and several others, namely, Miller, Hobart etc) on the insanity of this very subject (and several others).

    This subject - along with the very same graphics that McCormick uses above - were the cause of his ban back in 2010: https://weldingweb.com/vbb/threads/4...igure-this-out

    You can believe what ever you wish, but rejecting/disputing scientific fact is denialism.

    Surely, after more than a decade of your 'crusade' on this subject, you must stop and think "maybe I am wrong".

    Because you are wrong, William McCormick. Sincerely, wrong.
    Evert time I pick up the subject I think I might be wrong. So I go through it from the beginning. And each time I do I come to the same conclusion. You cannot just explain away the counterforce necessary to weigh an object. If the two weights hanging from the ceiling scale are correctly recording 25 pounds and the ceiling has a load of 50 pounds upon it then surely the cable holding one or two weights has 50 pounds on it, due to the counterforce that is the same in both cases. The reason that cranes fail so often and cables are so large and still fail is that when a 10,000 pound load is jostled the stress on the rope goes from zero to 20,000 pounds not zero to 10,000 pounds.

    Some people claimed I hurt their minds when I highlighted the reality, that they cannot explain away with logic, only math based on misunderstanding. Since I am a minority I tend to be voted away. Crane operators used to think as I do. Today I donít know that all do but the good ones still do.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick

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