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Thread: Problem with AL TIG

  1. #26
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tillerdemon View Post
    Yes, clamp meter was zeroed and I believe the meter reads a few percentage higher than actual. Hereís the AC amperage.
    Thanks for that.

    Although, Iím not sure you can measure AC properly with just a clamp meter, perhaps Oscar or another more knowledgeable person can verify.
    Most clamp meters can measure AC current, the better ones with Hall Effect sensors can measure DC current as well.

    If the meter reads true RMS and the frequency is within the bandwidth of the meter you should be OK. The difference of the reading from the displayed current is much more than the probable accuracy of your meter.

    Jack

  2. #27
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tillerdemon View Post
    Munkul you arenít far off. Maxed out, the 250 puts out 213 amps. YesWelder really needs to be exposed for falsely advertising their machines. I feel bad for beginners that are struggling because of the over rating amperage.
    Very common amongst the cheaper chinese welders unfortunately.

    It's actually better than I thought it might be.
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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  4. #28
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tillerdemon View Post
    Yes, clamp meter was zeroed and I believe the meter reads a few percentage higher than actual. Hereís the AC amperage. Although, Iím not sure you can measure AC properly with just a clamp meter, perhaps Oscar or another more knowledgeable person can verify.
    FWIW, my Amprobe (ACDC-100TRMS) will measure AC or DC current, but the manual warns in both cases, "The clamp must be positioned around only one conductor. If it is placed around two or more current carrying conductors, the reading is FALSE."

    Also, most welder mfgrs rate their welders allowing some headroom, in other words, they don't rate them at their absolute highest setting. For example, my Sync 250 maxes out at 310A...at 250A, its duty cycle is 40%.
    Last edited by Kelvin; 08-17-2021 at 07:18 AM.

  5. #29
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Also, most welder mfgrs rate their welders allowing some headroom, in other words, they don't rate them at their absolute highest setting. For example, my Sync 250 maxes out at 310A...at 250A, its duty cycle is 40%.
    Not any more, they don't. It used to be their rated setting was a 60% duty cycle with a higher headroom. Miller and Lincoln were both great at this. XMT304 was 300 amps at 60%.

    Slowly as they released new machines they started naming them at their peak current and dropping the duty cycle at this - there aren't many machines left on the market like the sync 250 any more... e.g. Lincoln Aspect 300 is peak 300 amps, 35% duty cycle, same with the Dynastys, in fact same with most machines on the market now.

    The Chinese machines have always been named after their supposed peak current, lol
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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  7. #30
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    FWIW, my Amprobe (ACDC-100TRMS) will measure AC or DC current, but the manual warns in both cases, "The clamp must be positioned around only one conductor. If it is placed around two or more current carrying conductors, the reading is FALSE."
    A clamp meter will measure the sum of the currents passing through the clamp. If the ground cable and the electrode cable both pass through the clamp when the welding current is 100 amps, the current read will be 100 - 100 = 0 amps. The reading is not "false", it is correct.

    I guess it's like most things - if you want a reasonable answer, you have to ask a reasonable question (i.e., use the meter properly).

    Jack

  8. #31
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    A clamp meter will measure the sum of the currents passing through the clamp. If the ground cable and the electrode cable both pass through the clamp when the welding current is 100 amps, the current read will be 100 - 100 = 0 amps. The reading is not "false", it is correct.
    Better write a letter to Amprobe and set them straight on the text of their manual!

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  10. #32
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Current shouldn't be passing through a "ground" cable unless something is really wrong
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  11. #33
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    After some research I have found that Retop Welds markets the same machine and they seem to provide more accurate machine ratings.
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  12. #34
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    I got help from this group some time ago with an Aluminum Tig job, 1/4 inch. The parameters were very much like those cited by G-ManBart

    HTP 221
    Machine set at 220 Amps
    Balance = 60
    Freq: 80 or 100
    Post flow 10 seconds
    1/8" 2% La Tungsten
    1/8" Filler, Hobart 5356
    #7 cup
    No pre-heat

    2 second stomp to puddle and back off as needed. The 1/8 electrode and lower freq really helped with a "T" of 1/4" to 1/4". technique will need to be adjusted for 1/8 to 1/4 but I think these starter settings are good

  13. #35
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    For your reference - Primeweld 225X on AC with the same meter.Name:  Screenshot_20210817-160239_Video Player.jpg
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  14. #36
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
    Current shouldn't be passing through a "ground" cable unless something is really wrong
    If you are objecting to the use of "ground" meaning "reference" then I will respectfully ignore the comment. Ground has been used for "reference" for decades - my car uses a negative ground electrical system and yet it is able to move away from its parking position.

    I'm not really into politically correctness but I don't get angry about it - life is too short.

    I don't want to turn this into ground zero.

    Regards
    Jack

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  16. #37
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    A clamp meter will measure the sum of the currents passing through the clamp. If the ground cable and the electrode cable both pass through the clamp when the welding current is 100 amps, the current read will be 100 - 100 = 0 amps. The reading is not "false", it is correct.
    Seems to me that if the amprobe "will measure the sum of the currents passing through the clamp" and if 100A is going through the stinger lead, then 100A will also be going through the ground (work) lead...then "the sum of the currents" is 100A + 100A = 200A

    Does current have a positive or negative value? Can you have a current of "minus 100 Amps"?

    I'll have to try it with my Amprobe and see what it says.

  17. #38
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    If you are objecting to the use of "ground" meaning "reference" then I will respectfully ignore the comment. Ground has been used for "reference" for decades - my car uses a negative ground electrical system and yet it is able to move away from its parking position.

    I'm not really into politically correctness but I don't get angry about it - life is too short.

    I don't want to turn this into ground zero.

    Regards
    Jack
    This post is an even juicer target for electrical theory humor, but I'll ignore it
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  18. #39
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Seems to me that if the amprobe "will measure the sum of the currents passing through the clamp" and if 100A is going through the stinger lead, then 100A will also be going through the ground (work) lead...then "the sum of the currents" is 100A + 100A = 200A

    Does current have a positive or negative value? Can you have a current of "minus 100 Amps"?

    I'll have to try it with my Amprobe and see what it says.
    It will be out of phase and cancel. Minus 100 amps is 100 amps travelling on the opposite direction.

    If you clamp and extension cord you will measure zero current as well for the same reason. To measure the current in the cord, you have to separate the conductors and just clamp the active or neutral (or whatever is appropriate).


    Jack

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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
    This post is an even juicer target for electrical theory humor, but I'll ignore it

    Actually, no theory has been mentioned - it is all about choosing to be offended by different terminologies.

    Anyway, enough of that, I choose to move on.

    Jack

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  21. #41
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    Actually, no theory has been mentioned - it is all about choosing to be offended by different terminologies.

    Anyway, enough of that, I choose to move on.

    Jack
    I certainly wasn't offended, I was making an electrical theory joke...hence the smiley face. Maybe it was too cerebral....noted.
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  22. #42
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by G-ManBart View Post
    I certainly wasn't offended, I was making an electrical theory joke...hence the smiley face. Maybe it was too cerebral....noted.
    Apologies, I missed it. I should pay better attention.

    Jack

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  24. #43
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
    Apologies, I missed it. I should pay better attention.

    Jack
    No need to apologize...it's the internet. Tone doesn't post well
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  26. #44
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tillerdemon View Post
    Munkul you arenít far off. Maxed out, the 250 puts out 213 amps. YesWelder really needs to be exposed for falsely advertising their machines. I feel bad for beginners that are struggling because of the over rating amperage.
    It's more prevalent than you think ALL of the bottom-barrel welders proliferating the market are likely the same. My Tooliom stick welders are the same. Both claim more than what they do. That being said, they can still put out a decent amount of welding current for what they cost. But yes, couple the fact: that they put out less than what the digital display says + most new welders grossly under-setting the welders for the task at hand = recipe for welding disaster and cluttered forum threads centered around the same topic Good thing we're here to set people straight.
    1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig!



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  28. #45
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Tillerdemon View Post
    For your reference - Primeweld 225X on AC with the same meter.
    Pleasantly surprised, I'd have lumped Primeweld in at the same quality level as Yeswelder.

    Then again, it's maybe a good one...depends how variable the quality is...
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

  29. #46
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    Pleasantly surprised, I'd have lumped Primeweld in at the same quality level as Yeswelder.

    Then again, it's maybe a good one...depends how variable the quality is...
    My Primeweld is superior in every aspect, except the HF start - the Yeswelder has a softer, but longer length arc initiation. However, the Primeweld HF start is certainly acceptable and comparable to the Lincoln SW200. I've been trying to figure how to explain the difference you feel between the two machines when welding. The Primeweld just feels like it has more torque, similar to when you use DC generator stick welder compared to a DC inverter stick welder. The YesWelder has that inverter feel, kind of like driving a 4cylinder up a steep hill.

  30. #47
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    Re: Problem with AL TIG

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    It's more prevalent than you think ALL of the bottom-barrel welders proliferating the market are likely the same. My Tooliom stick welders are the same. Both claim more than what they do. That being said, they can still put out a decent amount of welding current for what they cost. But yes, couple the fact: that they put out less than what the digital display says + most new welders grossly under-setting the welders for the task at hand = recipe for welding disaster and cluttered forum threads centered around the same topic Good thing we're here to set people straight.
    Exactly, well said Oscar.

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