This would be the correct tap for a closed hole right ? I can't get an annular cutter for the tap size, only a twist drill but the hole may be worn enough.
A bottoming tap is used in a closed hole, but only after most of the threads have been cut with a taper tap. The threads then are finished to the bottom of the closed hole with the bottoming tap.
With a closed bottom hole, you typically start with a taper tap until it bottoms out, then switch to a bottoming tap (like the one in the link you provided). The reason is it is very hard to start a bottoming tap - high risk of breaking the tap. The existing threads may allow you to use just a bottoming tap, but if it were me, I'd get both the taper tap and bottoming tap.
I'd love to hear what approach others on hear would take. Moth things I deal with are in the range of 1/4" thru 1". Occasionally we get above 1" bolt diameter, but that is maybe once every three years.
I'm the Plant Mechanic here so they are putting alot of pressure on me to save the day. I'm willing to try, but i also accept that somethings are beyond my skill set. Any idea what metal this could be made of ? I mean like cast steel, cast iron ? I'm not sure what I am looking at with this thing.
i wouldnt know, but cast usually preserves/cleans up better from rust/deteriation then steel. but 120 yrs of service, is absolutley old. anything not reused/leftover, u can sell on ebay. just lay them on a real nice velvety valour burgandy colored cloth before u snap pics of them, and make ebay listing say " titanic wreckage/artifacts "
Your making a mountain out of a mole hill. Most likely ductile iron given the age and since that's what is still used in the application, threads like cutting cheese. No you don't need a tapered tap that would be for pipe thread NPT. You need a standard bolt thread tap and a bottoming tap to finish if the hole is blind. Any old school machine shop can make that rod and press bronze bearings in the ends in a few hours. I would Imagine one end is left hand thread so the length can be adjusted without removing the end bolts. Where talking 160 year old tech on a 120 year old part and we are stumped with all the tech we have at our disposal? I'm a junior in welding school and machine shop is right next to us one of the first lessons learned is making threads, no big deal. Public water supply, don't you have a public tech school? Let the kids fix it for you. Use your resources, your not in the outback or the himalayas. 1 1/2 is not that big any decent machine shop has those taps. drilling company's, big logger, sawmills all have machine shops. Your in Connecticut right, how far could you possibly be from a ship yard and ship yard supply? They go through taps like toilet paper.
Your making a mountain out of a mole hill. Most likely ductile iron given the age and since that's what is still used in the application, threads like cutting cheese. No you don't need a tapered tap that would be for pipe thread NPT. You need a standard bolt thread tap and a bottoming tap to finish if the hole is blind. Any old school machine shop can make that rod and press bronze bearings in the ends in a few hours. I would Imagine one end is left hand thread so the length can be adjusted without removing the end bolts. Where talking 160 year old tech on a 120 year old part and we are stumped with all the tech we have at our disposal? I'm a junior in welding school and machine shop is right next to us one of the first lessons learned is making threads, no big deal. Public water supply, don't you have a public tech school? Let the kids fix it for you. Use your resources, your not in the outback or the himalayas. 1 1/2 is not that big any decent machine shop has those taps. drilling company's, big logger, sawmills all have machine shops. Your in Connecticut right, how far could you possibly be from a ship yard and ship yard supply? They go through taps like toilet paper.
If the information from the OP about the origins of the turbine is accurate, it is most definitely not ductile iron since ductile was not developed until the 1940's. Might be malleable but is more likely gray iron. Either way the original iron would have tapped easily, how it will respond now is yet to be seen. It seems to me that it is more likely to have been 1-1/2 or 1-7/16 than anything smaller. Those old guys liked the 1/16 sizes for some reason. I would dry it as much as possible and judiciously sandblast it to clean as much rust out of the hole as possible (as rust will damage the tap) while preserving as much original thread as possible. If the knuckle will take 1-1/2, run a 1-1/2 tap in the hole and access how good a thread you have. Is that a set screw on the bottom that locked the bolt in ?
OK, so took the best salvageable bolt to Fastenal today. a 1 1/2' nut fit the bolt fairly well so it is 1 1/2' already. Of course that now means I can't drill and tap to that size. I'm going back in the turbine on Wednesday to try the good bolt in the hole and see how loose it is and if it's worth trying o chase the existing threads. what is everyone's thoughts and using a stud in the hole if it's too loose to have a bolt hold and then welding the stud around to the wheel ? We would have to call in a pro for that as we are not equipped to do confined space hot work . Th only other option I could see would be trying to helicoil it. they do make them that big.
Lincoln Ranger 8
Lincoln 140c Mig
Lincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)
Miller 200
Diesel/Heavy Equipment Mechanic
Lead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
OK, so took the best salvageable bolt to Fastenal today. a 1 1/2' nut fit the bolt fairly well so it is 1 1/2' already. Of course that now means I can't drill and tap to that size. I'm going back in the turbine on Wednesday to try the good bolt in the hole and see how loose it is and if it's worth trying o chase the existing threads. what is everyone's thoughts and using a stud in the hole if it's too loose to have a bolt hold and then welding the stud around to the wheel ? We would have to call in a pro for that as we are not equipped to do confined space hot work . Th only other option I could see would be trying to helicoil it. they do make them that big.
If you can thread the new stud I to the hole and it doesn't get very hot, use high strength loctite, the red stuff. I would chase the threads to insure they are decent and clean. Use carburetor cleaner to get rid of the crap and oil. Make sure it's dry before putting in the studs.
You have been getting some good pointers on your project. I don't remember right now if someone else suggested this or not - but what are the chances you could drill all the way through and insert a bolt from the back side. What would be the result of that. A little water leaking around the bolt maybe? To continue with that approach, one could weld a tab, let's say 3/8 x 2 six inches long to the bolt head. Before you weld it on, drill two 1/2 inch holes in the tab, maybe 3 inches apart. From the inside, slip the bolt in the hole, mark where the two 1/2 inch holes are, pull it back out, drill and tap for two 1/2 inch bolts into the wall of the machine, then slip the 1 1/2 inch bolt back in the hole, securing it in place with the two 1/2 inch bolts in the strap that is welded to the big bolt. This will hold it in place and prevent it from turning when tightening the nut.
Just another " outside the box" suggestion for this or another situation.
You could also drill a 1 1/2 inch hole in a 6 x 6 x 1/4 plate, drop the bolt through it, weld the head to it and put two holes in the corners to secure it with the 1/2 inch bolts in the turbine.
Old iron never seems to weld well, just explodes into balls of red sparks. If you can get it cleaned up and even a little thred to grab clean and dry the hole well, set your stud in there with a nice coating of high strength j.b. epoxy and let it sit for a day. Or try a 1 1/2" NPT tap and make a stud on the lathe with NPT thread on one end lock tight the sucker in there. Not sure how deep the hole is But an NPT tap is roughly bolt size at the tip so as it goes deeper it will cut some fresh stuff.
You have been getting some good pointers on your project. I don't remember right now if someone else suggested this or not - but what are the chances you could drill all the way through and insert a bolt from the back side. What would be the result of that. A little water leaking around the bolt maybe? To continue with that approach, one could weld a tab, let's say 3/8 x 2 six inches long to the bolt head. Before you weld it on, drill two 1/2 inch holes in the tab, maybe 3 inches apart. From the inside, slip the bolt in the hole, mark where the two 1/2 inch holes are, pull it back out, drill and tap for two 1/2 inch bolts into the wall of the machine, then slip the 1 1/2 inch bolt back in the hole, securing it in place with the two 1/2 inch bolts in the strap that is welded to the big bolt. This will hold it in place and prevent it from turning when tightening the nut.
Just another " outside the box" suggestion for this or another situation.
You could also drill a 1 1/2 inch hole in a 6 x 6 x 1/4 plate, drop the bolt through it, weld the head to it and put two holes in the corners to secure it with the 1/2 inch bolts in the turbine.
This is what I am thinking but I will need to make a tapered shim for the nut side. I went back down inside yesterday with a chipping hammer and the holes basically go all the way through. They are badly egged out. 1 1/2 on the non worn and 1 3/4 on the torqued side if that makes sense. The challenge I see now is how to make or where to get new rods. We hooked up the one remaining rod by shoving a boilt back in the hole and got the wicket gates to open most of the way then bang..snapped the other rod, The knuckle ends are cast.
I think I have a plan to reattach but I need to make/buy these rods. They do have brass wear bushings in them.
Lincoln Ranger 8
Lincoln 140c Mig
Lincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)
Miller 200
Diesel/Heavy Equipment Mechanic
Lead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
My ideas for the fix. I am a lousy artist so my apologies ahead of time..
Lincoln Ranger 8
Lincoln 140c Mig
Lincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)
Miller 200
Diesel/Heavy Equipment Mechanic
Lead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Lincoln Ranger 8
Lincoln 140c Mig
Lincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)
Miller 200
Diesel/Heavy Equipment Mechanic
Lead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Looks like a winner. I would probably thread the top, where your cotter pin is as well and use a castellated nut there and if possible a lock nut on the bottom too.
so whats the scoop? Does the rod have to adjust? Original was probably lefty on one end to be adjusted. If you can build it static? hydraulic cylinder shop could cook that up with bronze bushings in an hour.
Well, Been awhile since I updated this but we completed the work today. We had new rods fabricated by New England Pump and Valves machine shop. These guys are really talented. The new rods are beautiful. Way better than anything I could make. Made from 416 Stainless. I used 1 1/2-6 grade 8 bolts. Had to cut one down. Was able to use nuts on the bell crank. Not a perfect repair but way better than it was and will probably last for quite awhile. I been in and out of this thing alot.
On a side note..to Honor some comments made by 123Weld...I used a wrench on some of it that was hand forged by the original craftsman and found in the inlet bay by divers...Hope that makes things right...lol
Last edited by acesneights1; 11-03-2021 at 12:40 PM.
Lincoln Ranger 8
Lincoln 140c Mig
Lincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)
Miller 200
Diesel/Heavy Equipment Mechanic
Lead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Last edited by acesneights1; 11-03-2021 at 12:48 PM.
Lincoln Ranger 8
Lincoln 140c Mig
Lincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)
Miller 200
Diesel/Heavy Equipment Mechanic
Lead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
Ease to make on a lathe.
Before 1900 there no true standards for bolts.
I have made bolt for machine dating back before 1900. You even find odd tpi on threads.
Dave
HF 170 welder
HF 4x6 band saw
South Bend 9N
Mill
B&D mag drill
Victor torch
UNITWELD 175 AMP 3 IN1 DC
MIDSTATES 300 AMP AC MACHINE LET'S GO BRANDON!"INFLATION-THAT'S THE PRICE WE PAY FOR THOSE GOVERNMENT BENEFITS EVERYBODY THOUGHT WERE FREE."RONALD REAGAN
JEFF
ace-n-eight, u look like a new age covid-23 guitarist/rock star on stage, in that second to last pic. thats maybe how it will look to go to a concert. as for the wrench, u got the right thoughts, im happy. but if you really wanna do it right, how about a little glass display, mounted to the wall, for it,, w/ a lil written summary of yr built, and yr/date found by diver. if not, it at least ought to be hung on the wall
ace-n-eight, u look like a new age covid-23 guitarist/rock star on stage, in that second to last pic. thats maybe how it will look to go to a concert. as for the wrench, u got the right thoughts, im happy. but if you really wanna do it right, how about a little glass display, mounted to the wall, for it,, w/ a lil written summary of yr built, and yr/date found by diver. if not, it at least ought to be hung on the wall
Couldn't upload a video but here's a link. She's been pumping for a week now. Running almost 3 MGD. Amazing how quiet and smooth it runs.
Lincoln Ranger 8
Lincoln 140c Mig
Lincoln Tombstone(doesn't everybody have one ?)
Miller 200
Diesel/Heavy Equipment Mechanic
Lead Plant Mechanic Municipal Water
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Originally Posted by acesneights1
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