Argon tank from Craigslist?

[GoK4rtFanatic]

Hello, I was browsing craigslist/ Facebook Marketplace, and cam across these CO2 cylinders. Seller did not provide any more info, such as recent hydro test, but I wasn’t wondering if you guys can help me identify if they will be good for my use. It’s 75 dollars for them which sounds to good to be true. I have messaged them, but can anyone give a quality check before I make any decision? One of them looks like it has a busted valve, but it’s my first time using gas and I don’t have a cylinder. Can CO2 tanks such as these work for 2000+ psi of argon? Pictures below.

[12V71]

Pretty much no. Those are aluminum cylinders. CO2 only.

[G-ManBart]

That's definitely not what you want for argon/TIG.

[SquirmyPug]

Sometimes the welding supply store will let you trade cylinders for something else. You might call your local store and ask if they would take those as a trade for an argon cylinder. The worst they can do is tell you no.

[GoK4rtFanatic]

That’s a good point. Before I do that, however, I was just wondering if this tank would be any better. I’m not sure about the cylinder in the very front, but the one on the far left says oxygen. Are these okay for 2000 psi of argon/ the needs I stated in the original post? Thank you.

[wb4rt]

They are not going to refill your cylinder, they typically only exchange. So if it is one of theirs or an owner size cylinder they should exchange for a similar size filled cylinder of your choice of gas.

[GoK4rtFanatic]

I’m a bit confused. By they do you mean a gas supplier such as Matheson or Airgas? Will they have to trade it in? Do I own said cylinder after the trade in/ do I just go back and swap every time for the same cost as a refill? Ideally I want to avoid the swap fee and just own the cylinder and only pay refills. Is it not possible to just refill the tank that they are selling (they being the seller on Facebook)?

[leightrepairs]

First thing you have to do is determine if the seller actually owns the tank. Then you need to know what the policy of the local supplier is. The policies for refilling/swapping tank varies greatly.

[SweetMK]

Ideally I want to avoid the swap fee and just own the cylinder and only pay refills. Is it not possible to just refill the tank that they are selling (they being the seller on Facebook)?

Around here, those larger tanks are "rent only",, so they are never owned,,
Buying one of those tanks would be like buying a leased car,, IMHO,, it would be difficult to "own" something that was originally leased,,

Sometimes those tanks end up at a scrap yard, because they are damaged,, then some CL guy will try to sell them to an unsuspecting customer,,

Deal only with your local welding supply for argon etc., ,, unless you are positive you know what you are doing.
(By that,, I mean certain size tanks can be owned,, and they are always the smaller size ones)

[Louie1961]

then some CL guy will try to sell them to an unsuspecting customer,,

OR they never went to/came from a scrap yard and are just straight up stolen. I wouldn't buy anything larger than 80 cubic foot size tanks. 80's are universally customer owned everywhere in the USA. Anything larger is a crap shoot. Some suppliers might sell them to you but the suppliers who don't will refuse to do an exchange.

[Louie1961]

I’m a bit confused. By they do you mean a gas supplier such as Matheson or Airgas? Will they have to trade it in? Do I own said cylinder after the trade in/ do I just go back and swap every time for the same cost as a refill? Ideally I want to avoid the swap fee and just own the cylinder and only pay refills. Is it not possible to just refill the tank that they are selling (they being the seller on Facebook)?

Most suppliers will usually not refill a specific tank for you. Its most always an exchange whether you own the tank or not. On an exchange (whether you own it or they do and you lease it), you pay for the gas and the hazmat fee, etc. If you lease the tank, they will bill you separately for the lease cost, usually once a year and not as part of each exchange. There is no such thing as a "swap fee".

Refilling a tank is a time consuming operation, and the tank to be refilled usually has to be purged and then filled. Its not a 5 minute operation. You will likely be waiting an hour or two. That's why most places just do exchanges.

[GoK4rtFanatic]

Oh wow. Never could have imagined an hour long operation for it. I’m new to this so I’m not sure I’m asking the right questions, but if these tanks are for sale then I could buy them off of them and take them to matheson who could swap it for a fee?

Edit: Perhaps the better question is am I better off just leasing a tank? I do eventually plan to buy one, I’m just wondering if I’m better off buying leaving, or buying a cheap one like this (assuming it can be bought). Wouldn’t it be throwing money away if I lease a tank if I eventually plan to buy one? My local Matheson quoted me at $300 bucks 125 c/f + tax for a full argon tank. I don’t want to pay more than I have to, but I also need the right equipment. Thoughts? Thanks.

[leightrepairs]

If the tanks are not "owner tanks" then they will only swap/fill them if they think you are the leasee and if they are Matheson tanks. They will keep the tanks and you will be out if they are their tanks and you do not have any tanks leased from them. 80 cf tanks are mostly all considered owner tanks, 125 cf tanks usually can be either owner or leased tanks anything bigger then 125 cf is mostly leased tanks. If you do not have a relationship with the supplier/welding supply they will be more difficult to deal with. Looking at the picture of the tanks you posted I see names on the neck rings which generally tell you the name of who owns the tanks.

[GoK4rtFanatic]

I just messaged him, here’s what he said.

“ I have 2 Helium and 6 or 8 Oxygen the Helium have a good test and 4 of the oxygen have a good test. The other 4 need tested. They can be changed to Argon by replacing the valve. What being tested”

I just asked him about what the name of the suppliers on the bottle are. Does it look at all promising?


Edit: Okay, so they are selling a 200 cf helium tank, smooth neck (no supplier marking). They are 125 dollars each. Do I go for it? Once again asking if a gas company will accept it. Do argon and helium use the same valve system? Would the gas supplier most likely swap or refill if it is unmarked?

[albrightree]

First thing you need to do is find a good welding supply shop in your area, and buy or lease a tank from them and learn what they will and won't take. If you show up with some ratty old cylinders of unknown origin and condition, they may not want to bother taking them. Some suppliers are are easier to deal with than others.

Where are you located ? Maybe somebody here can direct you towards a good supplier.

Best Regards

[12V71]

I think in the long run you would be better off to spend the $300 and have a tank YOU own with no problems and use that purchase to cultivate a relationship with your supplier.

[G-ManBart]

Nobody on a forum can answer this question for you. The local norms vary widely with location, so only folks near you will have any idea what to expect, and that will still vary somewhat with the company you're dealing with. Heck, the same brand, but a different store, can have different rules. My closest Airgas won't exchanged a large bottle, but one 15 minutes farther away will....no idea why. They are both Airgas stores, but different owners, so they have their own rules.

Buying a used tank is a risk, even if you know what you're doing. In most cases the local shops aren't going to fill your tank, they're going to exchange it for one they have ready to go. That means they're looking at your tank with suspicion because it may not be in test, and if it's not, it may not pass when tested. If it's in test, but just barely they're probably going to treat it like it's not in test because they don't send them out that way. Something as simple as a tiny little spot showing an arc hit the tank will be an instant failure on test...won't even bother with the actual test.

The smart thing to do is simply check with a couple of local shops and see what they can offer. Buy or lease one and avoid all the risks. Cheap tanks are tempting, but at least half the time it seems folks buying them get hosed.

[SweetMK]

To GoK4artfanatic,, I think all of us guys responding are being too nice to your CL seller,,
we do not want to outright say he is a cheat of some sort,, but, he could be.

If you were to list the exact city that you live near,, then, possibly one of the readers of the forum may happen to know the tank situation of your city.

For Roanoke VA, at the three welding supplies that I have dealt with,, those large tanks would be considered stolen from a welding supply.
If you tried to get them filled, you would not get the answer you are hoping for,,

The aluminum CO2 tanks may be similar also,, I have never tried to deal with those.
It is possible they are owned by a company like Coca-Cola or Budweiser,, and are only rented out for use with dispensers,,

And the concept of "changing a valve" was mentioned,, I can not believe that any welding supply would change a valve, or fill a tank that the consumer changed a valve??
These tanks are filled to way too high of a pressure to allow the consumer to use a pipe wrench to swap valves around,,,

So, to start off with,, let us know what city you are trying to obtain the gas at.

You asked whether to buy or lease a tank??
That comes down to the amount of welding you are going to do.

A high volume, daily welder will always lease a tank, because leased tanks are large, and the gas, per cubic foot, will cost WAY LESS.

But, if you only weld for an hour every couple months, the smaller owned tank is the way to go,, yes, you pay more per cubic foot for the gas, but, you do not have the lease fee to contend with.

So, there is another question to answer,, how many hours per week, or month are you gonna weld??

[John T]

Pretty much no. Those are aluminum cylinders. CO2 only.

I’ve never heard that before…
I know I have a aluminum tank filled with helium sitting in the garage now.
I think it’s an 80

[LanceR]

I guess it all depends on where you live and with whom you do business..... and maybe when you started doing business with them.

We had a farm and construction business in Central New York and over nearly four decades I did business with Haun Welding and always owned my own cylinders. For the last four years I've live in the Triad area of North Carolina and do business with Carolina Carbonics in Greensboro. I still own my own argon and CO2 cylinders all but one of which are in the 280-320 CF range. As stated already, I drop them off and pick them up a couple weeks later when I'm back in that neighborhood. That works for me as a hobbyist but could surely be an issue if I needed a faster turn-around.

Hydro-test and bead blast and repainting as needed costs around $60 and can add a week or more so to the turn-around. A valve swap is around $30 except that one cylinder has an oddball valve thread size and cost $60 to change the valve. All were due or nearly due for recertification when we moved so as I have had the cylinders re-certified I had the valves replaced as I can't remember having that done in the past.

As I rarely use the O/A rig my oxygen cylinders are both smaller medical style aluminum cylinders in the 120 CF range bought as NOS (new, old stock) cylinders about ten years ago for $100 each. For the life of me I can't remember what the cost to re-cert and re-valve one was.

My acetylene cylinder is quite old so I may replace it when it's finally empty but given how much they cost I'll definitely look into getting it re-certified first.

I had both suppliers note on my account that I owned my own cylinders when I opened the account so maybe that helped.

Best regards,


Lance

[albrightree]

I think most aluminum tanks are only rated for 1200-1500 psi. Most CO2 cylinders are only filled to about 800 psi. I've never seen or been given anything but CO2 in an aluminum tank. He'll need to check with his local gas supplier.



Just don't get caught with an unlawfully refilled cylinder, and make sure to use before expiration date . https://www.weldingweb.com/images/smilies/laughing.gif

(that might just be when using on a keg-o-rator system) https://www.weldingweb.com/images/smilies/drinkup.gif

Best Regards

[wb4rt]

Visit the local welding suppliers (LWS) near you. Ask about their policies and gas costs including buying a tank. Pick the one that seems most interested in your business. Some only want to deal with large shops but some cater to hobbiest and small shops. Be willing to pay a little more if necessary to deal with one who wants your business. Then set up an account- not necessarily a charge account, but an account with your name so they track your purchases and get to know you. Typically they code your account with a discount code and you will pay less than a one time walk in.

Then buy everything you reasonably can from that shop - gas, protective gear, consumables, discs, etc. If they sell propane, buy your propane from them. There is a wide spread on refill gas prices so buying your first bottle from them usually gets you better prices in the long run.

There is a guy near me who trades in gas and bottles. He deals with all the LWS and will exchange one brand empty bottle for another brand full bottle. It cost me an extra $100 to get my 5 bottles to the brand I wanted to deal with. Look on CL for somebody doing that.

You have been given all the information we can provide. We cannot assure you anything about specific bottles on CL. Things vary widely by supplier and location. If you still refuse to provide your location then go make the best deal you can. There are many other threads about bottles so read them but no point in continuing to ask if one bottle is better than another.

[LanceR]

The ridiculously short edit time for posts won't let me correct my last post but I just pulled out the invoice for the last couple cylinders Carolina Carbonics tested for me in 2019. One each steel and aluminum cost $22 each to test and the steel one cost $17 to blast and paint.

Location likely affects the answers so how about telling us where you are so we're not wasting our time?

albrightree, my M122 aluminum cylinder is listed as 2216 PSI service pressure. Some smaller ones are 3000 PSI but most of what I've seen (admittedly a small sample size) are around 2000 PSI.

Hope this helps,


Lance

[Louie1961]

I think most aluminum tanks are only rated for 1200-1500 psi.

When I used to earn my living as a paramedic, we used aluminum oxygen cylinders all the time. They were routinely filled to 2000-2100 PSI.

[vwguy3]

The best option is(if the seller will agree to it) to meet at the gas supplier of your choice. Ask the counter person to look at the CYLINDERS to see if they will accept them. If yes then make your deal with the seller and they can be on their way. Exchange the cylinder, pay for the contents and or hydro test if needed and your golden.
If they will not accept them then that's another deal.
If you buy first and then take them to the gas supplier and they threaten seizure make them show black and white proof, DO NOT just hand them over and walk away.
Most gas companies have aquired smaller companies and it was very common years ago(60s,70s,80s) for small dealers to sell any size they had. When the small dealer is sold, the company buying them also buys the liability of rental only sized customer owned CYLINDERS. I know this as fact. I own CYLINDERS that were initially sold by a small Mom and Pop dealers that was bought by another independant company that was then sold to Praxair/Linde......so I own rental size only CYLINDERS.