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Thread: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

  1. #101
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Yeah just thought it would be logical to put at least a 20 amp breaker for the garage. If, as was mentioned, a little air compressor will need a 20 amp then why wouldn't they install that. How much more would it have cost them I wonder. Anyway, I'll have it fixed as soon as my electrician can schedule me in"

    Yes, it'd be logical, but remember that nearly no homeowner has ever hired an electrician to wire a home. Nearly every home is built by a GC. GC commits to a price. A GC only profits when the subs work cheap.
    Three scenarios:
    An inexperienced electrician bids too low, does the job at a loss, goes out of business soon afterwards, makes numerous mistakes.
    An experienced electrician with no ethics bids lowest, but has to cut corners to break even.
    The GC has a laborer wire the house.

    Presuming that your house "should have extras" isn't logical. Suburban houses only get extras if the developer makes it an upsell.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  2. #102
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    You guys are making me paranoid about my wiring now lol. Actually, my 6 year old step-son pulled the ceiling fan cord in his room the other night and the whole fan dropped down. I'm talking the whole fan assembly and the plastic electric box lmao. At first I was pissed because I thought he tried to hang on the fan or something. The plastic electric box was just braced by the drywall. Now I'll have to go up in the attic soon and see if I can secure it against something. I should check the other ceiling fans too.

    No way a ceiling fan box pulled loose if it was installed code compliant. Fan boxes are engineered for 50 LB chandeliers or 35 LB fans. I'm well north of 200 LBS. I check every fan by hanging from it, I never had one pull out. Fan boxes are supplied with usually four 1-1/2" 12 screws to be solidly anchored in ceiling framing.

    There are plastic fan boxes, they too are very robust.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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  4. #103
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Yeah just thought it would be logical to put at least a 20 amp breaker for the garage. If, as was mentioned, a little air compressor will need a 20 amp then why wouldn't they install that. How much more would it have cost them I wonder. Anyway, I'll have it fixed as soon as my electrician can schedule me in"

    Yes, it'd be logical, but remember that nearly no homeowner has ever hired an electrician to wire a home. Nearly every home is built by a GC. GC commits to a price. A GC only profits when the subs work cheap.
    Three scenarios:
    An inexperienced electrician bids too low, does the job at a loss, goes out of business soon afterwards, makes numerous mistakes.
    An experienced electrician with no ethics bids lowest, but has to cut corners to break even.
    The GC has a laborer wire the house.

    Presuming that your house "should have extras" isn't logical. Suburban houses only get extras if the developer makes it an upsell.
    yeah that kind of pisses me off. This house wasn't exactly cheap yet so many things not up to par. I wouldn't call a 20 amp garage receptacle as an "extra", I think it should be an implied thing. Anyway, I digress. Next house I buy I'll really inspect the electrical panel and hire an electrician for the home inspection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    You guys are making me paranoid about my wiring now lol. Actually, my 6 year old step-son pulled the ceiling fan cord in his room the other night and the whole fan dropped down. I'm talking the whole fan assembly and the plastic electric box lmao. At first I was pissed because I thought he tried to hang on the fan or something. The plastic electric box was just braced by the drywall. Now I'll have to go up in the attic soon and see if I can secure it against something. I should check the other ceiling fans too.

    No way a ceiling fan box pulled loose if it was installed code compliant. Fan boxes are engineered for 50 LB chandeliers or 35 LB fans. I'm well north of 200 LBS. I check every fan by hanging from it, I never had one pull out. Fan boxes are supplied with usually four 1-1/2" 12 screws to be solidly anchored in ceiling framing.

    There are plastic fan boxes, they too are very robust.
    lol, take a pic the next time you hang from a fan. I guess this thing was definitely not to code then. Son is trying to sleep so had to take a pic in without the bedside lamp on

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    I had to take the fan apart and stick the box back up in the ceiling the other night. It wasn't anchored to anything, just the drywall.

  5. #104
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambull01 View Post
    yeah that kind of pisses me off. This house wasn't exactly cheap yet so many things not up to par. I wouldn't call a 20 amp garage receptacle as an "extra", I think it should be an implied thing. Anyway, I digress. Next house I buy I'll really inspect the electrical panel and hire an electrician for the home inspection.



    lol, take a pic the next time you hang from a fan. I guess this thing was definitely not to code then. Son is trying to sleep so had to take a pic in without the bedside lamp on

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    I had to take the fan apart and stick the box back up in the ceiling the other night. It wasn't anchored to anything, just the drywall.
    NEC requires almost every item in your electrical system to be "listed" for the specific application That is a B618RR from Carlon. It is NOT rated for paddle fan application.In fact it is weight limited for ceiling light mounting. Did someone replace a ceiling light with a fan?

    That is also an "old work" box. intended for installation in older houses, usually not used in new homes where the wiring is installed before sheet rock. I might use it when adding smoke alarms. A lot of that goes on to sell a home. Pre 2014 no bedroom smoke alarms were required.

    A few violations of code in that installation.

    They offer retro bar mount boxes for fans. You install them through a hole in the ceiling ship in a bottle style, they clamp to the ceiling joists.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  6. #105
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    I'm late to the thread- i see you're in NoVA, greetings from Reston! Saw your supplies list and was going to suggest "buy tools as needed". Not sure if you have shielding gas at home yet, you can use pure co2 instead of c25. Does your Hobart also stick weld?

    Dave O

  7. #106
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    NEC requires almost every item in your electrical system to be "listed" for the specific application That is a B618RR from Carlon. It is NOT rated for paddle fan application.In fact it is weight limited for ceiling light mounting. Did someone replace a ceiling light with a fan?

    That is also an "old work" box. intended for installation in older houses, usually not used in new homes where the wiring is installed before sheet rock. I might use it when adding smoke alarms. A lot of that goes on to sell a home. Pre 2014 no bedroom smoke alarms were required.

    A few violations of code in that installation.

    They offer retro bar mount boxes for fans. You install them through a hole in the ceiling ship in a bottle style, they clamp to the ceiling joists.
    Damn how do you know all this ****? I'm not sure about the ceiling light/fan switch. Wife and I bought this house about a year ago and we're still finding things. Previous owner/owners apparently have no idea how to do basic home improvement/installation tasks. I'll be fixing crap for the rest of my life lol.

    I'll go to Home Depot after work and look for that bar mount and a maybe a newer box. Actually I'm going to get my ladder and check out the attic first, see if I can locate the other ceiling fans and inspect the installation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frenetic View Post
    I'm late to the thread- i see you're in NoVA, greetings from Reston! Saw your supplies list and was going to suggest "buy tools as needed". Not sure if you have shielding gas at home yet, you can use pure co2 instead of c25. Does your Hobart also stick weld?

    Dave O
    Hello there! I used to live in Reston for a brief period after my last military deployment. That's a cool area but traffic sucks. Actually traffic sucks in most of NOVA lol. I believe I just about have all the supplies I need now, thankfully. My wife was starting to get annoyed with all the boxes that kept showing up on our porch. They were all filled with welding **** lol.

    I bought a tank of C25. I know C02 is cheaper but figured it will last me a long time with the amount I'll be welding so the cost wouldn't be much of a factor. The 210MVP doesn't stick weld unfortunately. I really want to try stick and tig at some point. Stick welding looks pretty badass. Very simplistic and it looks like it really digs into the metal. I also want to experiment with spray and pulse MIG. Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself again. I should stick with short circuit MIG for a while until I get the hang of it lol.

  8. #107
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    This is the kind of box you want for a fan. screws to the rafters.

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  9. #108
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    "Damn how do you know all this ****?"

    52 years of sitting through many hours of class, many thousands of hours in the trade, subsequently devoting hours each license renewal class. & oh yeah, having inspectors look at & critique my work.

    I lost two new home wiring jobs one summer to a lower bidder. The difference in our prices work out to the brand wire nuts I use VS his. I can't say how he calculated his bid. Mine would have been enough lower if I had priced cheaper wire nuts.

    On another job, a dentists office, my price was $42,000. I lost the job to another electrician who bid $60,000. Contractor admitted electrician was already chosen, but customer insisted on another bid for comparison. I, of course wasted 18 hours planning, engineering, designing, pricing for which I didn't even get a thank you.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  10. #109
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roert42 View Post
    This is the kind of box you want for a fan. screws to the rafters.

    Actually, the pictured hanger is for new work. If the ceiling has already been sheet rocked, you might get into the attic, or the retrofit fan hangers have a screw you twist in through the 4" round hole. It won't be fun, but you will have a sense of accomplishment afterward.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

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  12. #110
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Yeah I definitely need to get in the attic and check out the other ceiling fans. Don't want another fan to drop out of the ceiling again lol.

    I also need to focus on practicing tack welding sheet metal so I can fix my truck panels. A long line of tack welds doesn't seem like a lot of fun though, I would rather practice running beads in various positions. I think my next purchase should be a 6 gauge extension cord, a 230V plug for the welder and some kind of adaptor so I can plug the welder into the dryer outlet (until I get the 50amp, 230V receptacle installed in my garage).

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  14. #111
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Something I found pretty helpful for really thin stuff.
    Puts a flange on the edge of the sheet metal, so you can overlap the two sheets of metal, and make a lap weld instead of a butt weld. 100x easier to do on paper thin autobody sheet metal.

    I actually have a pneumatic one instead of the pliers that can punch holes for spot welds too. Something like this.
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  15. #112
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roert42 View Post
    Something I found pretty helpful for really thin stuff.
    Puts a flange on the edge of the sheet metal, so you can overlap the two sheets of metal, and make a lap weld instead of a butt weld. 100x easier to do on paper thin autobody sheet metal.

    I actually have a pneumatic one instead of the pliers that can punch holes for spot welds too. Something like this.
    I saw this YT video:

    That method seems ingenious. I was planning on trying that once I really get the welder settings dialed in for sheet metal. I have the replacement panels in my garage already, they are pretty big. I think I'll just use a portion of it instead of the whole panel, just enough to cover/repair the rust. Right now I have no idea how I'm going to fix the inner sheet metal, may have to try and fab something up. It will be my first time messing with sheet metal so I'm a bit nervous, don't want to permanently screw up this truck.

  16. #113
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    I lost two new home wiring jobs one summer to a lower bidder. The difference in our prices work out to the brand wire nuts I use VS his. I can't say how he calculated his bid. Mine would have been enough lower if I had priced cheaper wire nuts.

    On another job, a dentists office, my price was $42,000. I lost the job to another electrician who bid $60,000. Contractor admitted electrician was already chosen, but customer insisted on another bid for comparison. I, of course wasted 18 hours planning, engineering, designing, pricing for which I didn't even get a thank you.
    I know this feeling. I bid a school like that. As I recall the spec was SDQO and some other things I dont recall exactly now but somehow the other bidder went ahead and either got permission or they dont know any better to use Challenger and or ITE maybe for all the equipment. I wasnt trying to be low,,, I wanted to be second as there was some discretionary room, I think a lot were pissed when they all came low as they thought I might be that guy, saved them a bunch of loot, no thanks there either.

  17. #114
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    I use a modified flange for most of that rather than a true but weld. I dont have many good sheet pics but can make it almost consumable and leave it looks like a root bead on the back. It makes it a lot stiffer and easy to finish.
    Body guys often commented on the patches and ease of finishing and how close it came. Another thing is,, not every repair has to be made from thin steel. For truck work lots of pieces can be done in 16 ga, maybe not skins but hidden work, makes it easy to fit, holds its shape, adds strength and ease of welding.
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  19. #115
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    I'll have to take a look at that video later.

    If I am going to do a butt weld i like to hold the panel up and cut the old out while also cutting the patch at the same time. That way they are the same shape. Gotta use a reall thing wheel though or you end up with a big gap.

    Also, that guy wasn't wearing a hood while welding.
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    I dont watch a lot of vids but that was good. There is another way I might like as well or better in where the donor is slightly bigger by 1/8 or more to start, cut and finish the hole and pull the patch in the back so to speak and bend a little flare in the donor. There is no gap, no place for the wire to shoot thru. Similar to the whiz that does this on GJ grind the weld fussy like with a small wheel rather than wholesale with the big sander. If I gotta do this really rather use air. So easy to throttle and torque. I have a 5 inch sander but fave is this 7 with 36 and use the 4 for cut off.
    A good thing the guy in the vid does is use right angle for cut off.
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    If you are going to put a 50 amp outlet and a 20 amp in your garage you might be better off to put a sub panel in.
    Then you could easly add a few more outlets for grinders and such.
    I had outlets about every 6 feet in on shop. It is nice to not have exstension cords running all over the floor.

  22. #118
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    I use a modified flange for most of that rather than a true but weld. I dont have many good sheet pics but can make it almost consumable and leave it looks like a root bead on the back. It makes it a lot stiffer and easy to finish.
    Body guys often commented on the patches and ease of finishing and how close it came. Another thing is,, not every repair has to be made from thin steel. For truck work lots of pieces can be done in 16 ga, maybe not skins but hidden work, makes it easy to fit, holds its shape, adds strength and ease of welding.
    I don't get this flange thing you're talking about, can't picture it in my mind. I'll have to look it up.

    Yeah that Fitzee guy said something similar to that, about using a thicker gauge sheet metal. Evidently he says it's easier to use a thicker gauge sheet metal with the thinner metal on a vehicle. Evidently it's easier to weld that way. I may try a thicker gauge on the inner wheel well metal. I'm still trying to work out how I'm going to cut it out and fit/fabricate the replacement piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roert42 View Post
    I'll have to take a look at that video later.

    If I am going to do a butt weld i like to hold the panel up and cut the old out while also cutting the patch at the same time. That way they are the same shape. Gotta use a reall thing wheel though or you end up with a big gap.

    Also, that guy wasn't wearing a hood while welding.
    lol yep I believe he mentions not wearing a hood in another video. I guess he just closes his eyes sometimes since he's mainly doing tack welds on sheet metal. I'm loving my helmet though so I use it all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    I dont watch a lot of vids but that was good. There is another way I might like as well or better in where the donor is slightly bigger by 1/8 or more to start, cut and finish the hole and pull the patch in the back so to speak and bend a little flare in the donor. There is no gap, no place for the wire to shoot thru. Similar to the whiz that does this on GJ grind the weld fussy like with a small wheel rather than wholesale with the big sander. If I gotta do this really rather use air. So easy to throttle and torque. I have a 5 inch sander but fave is this 7 with 36 and use the 4 for cut off.
    A good thing the guy in the vid does is use right angle for cut off.
    You mean making a flare in the donor patch that sits behind the sheet metal of the vehicle? So when you tack weld the metal from the wire contacts the donor piece, vehicle metal, and the flare of the donor piece that's resting on the backside of the vehicle? So hard to explain what I'm thinking though a forum post lol.

    Is that thing on the right a cut-off wheel without a guard? If so, you're brave dude. There's no way I'm taking my guards off my angle grinder.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcguide View Post
    If you are going to put a 50 amp outlet and a 20 amp in your garage you might be better off to put a sub panel in.
    Then you could easly add a few more outlets for grinders and such.
    I had outlets about every 6 feet in on shop. It is nice to not have exstension cords running all over the floor.
    lol. Damn man, I'm not trying to set up a welding shop in my garage. It would be nice to have more outlets though. I agree about the extension cord thing. Not only is it a pain, I think it can be a hazard as well.

  23. #119
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    I don't like overlapping seams, or more specifically, I don't like rust repair that overlaps. I'm in the rust belt. State & Town crews start early November dumping brine on the roads every night. When it snows they dump rock salt. All summer it's calcium chloride on gravel roads for dust control. That crap is corrosive & if there is an overlap it'll get in there & rust worse. A butt weld is less vulnerable to salt corrosion. Be sure to use something on the back side for rust prevention.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  24. #120
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    The overlap in the behind method is so minor it is consumed in the same nature as a backup wire used in some pipe joints. I agree laps are a problem for corrosion.
    No, that 7 inch is NOT a cut off wheel, its a sanding disk and I also keep guards on. I use another 4 inch like the one with the wire wheel on it for cuts. I dont like straight for cuts, often puts the user behind the wheel vs off the side.
    As for the guy and the welding hood. He is wearing real safety glasses and hiding the arc behind the cup. Watching the trailing edge of puddle or tack. The guys you see not wearing any glasses are ,, well,,,

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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    I tend to agree with the post about adding a panel. It does a couple things. Instead of long circuits,,, for 120V it allows short and gives local breaker control.. It also bypasses existing wiring for tool circuits, allows easy tailoring and additions and doesnt add much cost if a guy uis contemplating a 6 or better wire anyway. It can actually self pay,, especially on long run by allowing aluminum cable to be used which can be even better as a number 2 cost about 1/3 as much as a 6 copper. a 6 or 8 space panel allows a welder circuit, air comp and a couple 120 tools.

  26. #122
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    The behind lap I mention is similar to the picture above but imagine trimming the back off with snips so its BARELY lapped. I also live in brine central. Hey Willie, I asked in another thread about the beautiful 580,,, do you have covered parking also?
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambull01 View Post
    When you weld load bearing ****, how do you know if you have enough penetration? I was wondering about that today while welding tiny 1/4" pieces lol. I kind of want to build a trailer or something eventually, don't really need one but I think it would be fun to make. I don't want it to fall apart on the highway though if my welds break.

    Replicate the joints you plan to weld, using scrap. Then slice them up, polish them up using surface prep pads on a 2" angle die grinder, and use Naval Jelly or similar rust-removal gel after having warmed up the polished cut-away.





    Quote Originally Posted by Ambull01 View Post
    lol. Damn man, I'm not trying to set up a welding shop in my garage.
    Why not? You scared?
    1st on WeldingWeb to have a scrolling sig!



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  29. #124
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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I don't like overlapping seams, or more specifically, I don't like rust repair that overlaps. I'm in the rust belt. State & Town crews start early November dumping brine on the roads every night. When it snows they dump rock salt. All summer it's calcium chloride on gravel roads for dust control. That crap is corrosive & if there is an overlap it'll get in there & rust worse. A butt weld is less vulnerable to salt corrosion. Be sure to use something on the back side for rust prevention.
    I bought some auto panel adhesive, was going to use that to repair my truck rear panels. Damn adhesive was almost $100 for a smallish tube I believe. Supposedly the adhesive inhibits rust, not sure how though. I may return it since I want to try and weld it on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    I tend to agree with the post about adding a panel. It does a couple things. Instead of long circuits,,, for 120V it allows short and gives local breaker control.. It also bypasses existing wiring for tool circuits, allows easy tailoring and additions and doesnt add much cost if a guy uis contemplating a 6 or better wire anyway. It can actually self pay,, especially on long run by allowing aluminum cable to be used which can be even better as a number 2 cost about 1/3 as much as a 6 copper. a 6 or 8 space panel allows a welder circuit, air comp and a couple 120 tools.

    The behind lap I mention is similar to the picture above but imagine trimming the back off with snips so its BARELY lapped. I also live in brine central. Hey Willie, I asked in another thread about the beautiful 580,,, do you have covered parking also?
    I'll ask my electrician about adding a panel and see what he says. The two outlets (230 and 120) it will be within a few feet of the existing panel. I think there's some spots open for dedicated breakers/circuits or whatever you call it. Don't know **** about electrical stuff lol. I'll do most, if not all, of my welding in the garage so there should be no recurring need to use an extension cord. I may mess around with some flux core in the driveway eventually, just to showoff to neighbors and act like I know how to weld.

    I like all your air tools! Looks like a surgeon's table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Replicate the joints you plan to weld, using scrap. Then slice them up, polish them up using surface prep pads on a 2" angle die grinder, and use Naval Jelly or similar rust-removal gel after having warmed up the polished cut-away.

    Why not? You scared?
    Ah yeah I saw that in some weld.com YT videos I believe, or maybe it was weldingtipsandtricks. Is that 3/4" steel? That looks huge! Thickest metal I've messed with so far is only 1/4", don't think my little Hobart could handle 3/4.

    I would love to set-up a welding shop in my garage but I would have to actually know how to weld first lol. I think I'm hooked already though, I could spend all day just messing around running beads.

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    Re: 16 Hours of GMAW Training/Instruction?

    psacustom was gracious enough to invite me over and taught a few tips on MIG welding. I need A LOT of practice with vertical up and down. Staying in the leading edge of the puddle on vertical down welds is a bit of a challenge. Vertical up, pretty damn complicated. Tried to do the triangle tracing but blew holes everywhere. I have to do the zigzag technique I saw from Bob Moffat on YT. I still screw-up with penetration, over running the weld pool, not pausing on the edges to make the weld flat, etc. So much **** to think about when you're welding.

    The pair of gloves I bought a few weeks ago are already jacked up.
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