The explanation is ok but I think maybe the moral of the story is they are trying to run too big of wire in the little machines. They can run a bigger wire but are really 023 units.
The 120 volt is very limited solid wire with gas 0.023 or 0.030 flux core E71T-GS.
Forney does say you use a 30 plug witch helps but how has 120 volt 30 amp plug (maybe 4 wire dryer plug), just run 240 volt plug.
Dave
Originally Posted by Sberry
The explanation is ok but I think maybe the moral of the story is they are trying to run too big of wire in the little machines. They can run a bigger wire but are really 023 units.
I run a millermatic 211 (inverter) on 120 quite often. Definitely notice more juice out of a bigger breaker and/or thicker wire or cord/closer to breaker.
It will put out a surprising amount of power on a 10g 30 amp 120 breaker (breaking the rules with nema 15 connectors)
I've run .035 on 120, not ideal in any sense but it will do what the chart says (3/16") and more in vertical up or with prep, which is more than enough for most repairs that only have 120 access .030 wire is the sweet spot.
You like time delay fuses.
Home type breakers are fast trip type.
The time delay fuses have a 3x overload for 3 to 5 seconds. This helps on starting a welds and motors. Still protects the wire.
Dave
Originally Posted by SlowBlues
Great info.
I run a millermatic 211 (inverter) on 120 quite often. Definitely notice more juice out of a bigger breaker and/or thicker wire or cord/closer to breaker.
It will put out a surprising amount of power on a 10g 30 amp 120 breaker (breaking the rules with nema 15 connectors)
I've run .035 on 120, not ideal in any sense but it will do what the chart says (3/16") and more in vertical up or with prep, which is more than enough for most repairs that only have 120 access .030 wire is the sweet spot.
I run a millermatic 211 (inverter) on 120 quite often. Definitely notice more juice out of a bigger breaker and/or thicker wire or cord/closer to breaker.
It will put out a surprising amount of power on a 10g 30 amp 120 breaker (breaking the rules with nema 15 connectors)
I've run .035 on 120, not ideal in any sense but it will do what the chart says (3/16") and more in vertical up or with prep, which is more than enough for most repairs that only have 120 access .030 wire is the sweet spot.
Here is letter from Forney.
Dave
HF 170 welder
HF 4x6 band saw
South Bend 9N
Mill
B&D mag drill
Victor torch
Good info. I have been considering/attracted to small 120v migs. Almost bought the HF titanium, but they were out. Recently noticed the century. The century 90 flux core might do what i need.
I used to have a century 110amp mig. On 30 amp it was really good. Weighed 90lbs not good for portability compared to nowadays
The plug and the wire really isnt much an issue. Its the breaker. These have limited duty cycle. These machines handle 30 ocpd, they are designed for it. The concerns are not with the welder but this is a common recept which allows OTHER tools to be plugged in which are not designed to be used on circuits above 20 a.
Many/most tools are designed to depend on the breaker for fault protection, the cords, the internals not intended for use on large circuits.
This is where i get in a bit of trouble on these forums where the focus is all on the wire at the expense of other issues not so apparrent which are as important to circuit design and maybe more so in some cases. If o e notes, the words most/many and general theory as there are a lot of exceptions.
Lots of equipment wired 12/30 and most 20A ends in the world installed on 14 cords. May see 14 cords with 30 plugs on special tools in situation like wood shop with multiple machines on the same circuit. Cannot mismatch the recept and the wire though, would need a 10.
Most problems is fast trip breakers.
It hard to find time delay breaks and when do they very high in cost.
This why old shops had time delay fuses.
Still protect the wire but you start motors and welders.
Dave
Originally Posted by Sberry
Lots of equipment wired 12/30 and most 20A ends in the world installed on 14 cords.
They did use time delay fuses and they do make breakers with additional delay but modern breakers do have delay and are not fast like old fuses. They have ai something rating on them making them suitable for motors and heating and cooling equipment.
One of the masters here probably more familiar with the details. I believe it changed somewhere along the way, dont recall when this listing came to be.
Getting rid of fuses in residential was a huge boost to safety. I was in a house not too long ago. Was so old the N had about 3 strands of wire at the weatherhead and all but the furnace was on 2 circuits. Both 30 fuses and by shear luck the combination loads didnt happen to overheat the wire.
Homeowner said, well the house inspector said this was ok, says it with that look and i had to get his attn and say,,, does this look right 2 u? No connectors, cables wire nutted flying etc.
Inspector paid by seller instead of buyer. .
That ture but to replace fuse people would use penny's.
Yes you can run motor off of today's breakers but it takes a larger breaker.
Fuse are still the best protection but people will up size the fuse , use penny and aluminum foil, I even heard of aluminum bars in place of fuses.
Also if breaker flips you just turn the breaker back on. A fuse blows you are buying a new fuse typically not right size.
I still use time delay fuses for motor protection today. But I buy the right size.
Most home owners do not know the correct size.
Dave
Originally Posted by Sberry
Getting rid of fuses in residential was a huge boost to safety. I was in a house not too long ago. Was so old the N had about 3 strands of wire at the weatherhead and all but the furnace was on 2 circuits. Both 30 fuses and by shear luck the combination loads didnt happen to overheat the wire.
Homeowner said, well the house inspector said this was ok, says it with that look and i had to get his attn and say,,, does this look right 2 u? No connectors, cables wire nutted flying etc.
Inspector paid by seller instead of buyer. .
That is why they before breakers came to town they required fuse holder reducers installed in fuse panels. You can only put the right size fuse in them once the reducer is installed in the medium E26 socket base and they are non removable. A sharp tang comes out of threaded section that will only allow installation but won't come back out.
Most had work arounds good news most are afraid of changing a breaker.
Dave
Originally Posted by danielplace
That is why they before breakers came to town they required fuse holder reducers installed in fuse panels. You can only put the right size fuse in them once the reducer is installed in the medium E26 socket base and they are non removable. A sharp tang comes out of threaded section that will only allow installation but won't come back out.
That is why they before breakers came to town they required fuse holder reducers installed in fuse panels. You can only put the right size fuse in them once the reducer is installed in the medium E26 socket base and they are non removable. A sharp tang comes out of threaded section that will only allow installation but won't come back out.
The Type S fuses I seldom see these days. I hated them! Those who can't read would try to force a 20 to replace a 15 & chip the ceramic thread. Bits of broken thread would jam the female threads in the fuse holder & I'd be in some old lady's overcrowded clothes closet at 90 degrees F picking the bits out by flashlight. Come to think of it, I hate mobile homes in general.
An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Lots of equipment wired 12/30 and most 20A ends in the world installed on 14 cords. May see 14 cords with 30 plugs on special tools in situation like wood shop with multiple machines on the same circuit. Cannot mismatch the recept and the wire though, would need a 10.
Remember that wire has multiple amperage ranges though. 12 gauge is commonly thought of as 20 amp rated but it's actually muuuuch higher in its "open air rating" cheap number 12 has an open air amperage rating of 30 amps...
Also we all use 15 amp plugs on 20 amp circuits at home if there's more than 1 plug on that circuit... if it's 1 designated plug on the braker it must be rated for the full braker amperage
The Type S fuses I seldom see these days. I hated them! Those who can't read would try to force a 20 to replace a 15 & chip the ceramic thread. Bits of broken thread would jam the female threads in the fuse holder & I'd be in some old lady's overcrowded clothes closet at 90 degrees F picking the bits out by flashlight. Come to think of it, I hate mobile homes in general.
Remember that wire has multiple amperage ranges though. 12 gauge is commonly thought of as 20 amp rated but it's actually muuuuch higher in its "open air rating" cheap number 12 has an open air amperage rating of 30 amps...
Also we all use 15 amp plugs on 20 amp circuits at home if there's more than 1 plug on that circuit... if it's 1 designated plug on the braker it must be rated for the full braker amperage
Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk
Always somebody complaining about a cord on a machine or welder being too small, therefore Why do I need heavier wire for the circuit?
Manufactured items need only laboratory approval. In a bench test, did it overheat? Most of these cords are rated 105 degrees, or even higher. Welders (for example), have limited duty cycle. Following duty cycle rules, it won't overheat.
The circuit supplying your machine must comply with electrical code. Once we used type NM cable or TW single conductor in conduit rated 60 degrees C. it was (sometimes) rated 15 amps for #14, 20 amps for #12, 30 amps for #10.
When 90 degree insulation became mainstream, amp ratings rose sharply, but breaker sizes did not. Now, up to 9 conductors can carry traditional amperage in conduit if you don't have to adjust for ambient temperature.
An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.
Aren't breakers still rated at 60c instead of 90? That's one of those things that bugs me...
Also why my old house (new to me) had an 85 amp breaker feeding number 6 that was technically rated for that amperage... issue was the breaker wouldn't take the heat so I reduced it to a 50 (had one on hand)
Technical there lot ways to protect wires or electronics. Even most electrician do not know the subject that well.
Dave
Originally Posted by Slowxj
Aren't breakers still rated at 60c instead of 90? That's one of those things that bugs me...
Also why my old house (new to me) had an 85 amp breaker feeding number 6 that was technically rated for that amperage... issue was the breaker wouldn't take the heat so I reduced it to a 50 (had one on hand)
Always somebody complaining about a cord on a machine or welder being too small, therefore Why do I need heavier wire for the circuit?
Manufactured items need only laboratory approval. In a bench test, did it overheat? Most of these cords are rated 105 degrees, or even higher. Welders (for example), have limited duty cycle. Following duty cycle rules, it won't overheat.
The circuit supplying your machine must comply with electrical code. Once we used type NM cable or TW single conductor in conduit rated 60 degrees C. it was (sometimes) rated 15 amps for #14, 20 amps for #12, 30 amps for #10.
When 90 degree insulation became mainstream, amp ratings rose sharply, but breaker sizes did not. Now, up to 9 conductors can carry traditional amperage in conduit if you don't have to adjust for ambient temperature.
The cord length has the most to do with. Look at the element in a 20amp glass fuse. It can be that thin/small even out of easily melted material for the very short distance in the reduced section of the fuse link. The attached cords are skinny because they are short.
Most of the wiring in any given equipment is going to be much less than the wire the branch circuit uses to feed it so all that wire is grossly over powered but it can't draw more than it's size because each are only feeding a part of the unit like say a single burner in a range so no way that burner can draw much more than the rating it is. A dead short in a short length of 16 gauge will still trip a 50 amp breaker.
Originally Posted by Slowxj
Aren't breakers still rated at 60c instead of 90? That's one of those things that bugs me...
Also why my old house (new to me) had an 85 amp breaker feeding number 6 that was technically rated for that amperage... issue was the breaker wouldn't take the heat so I reduced it to a 50 (had one on hand)
Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk
The breakers today and most terminations are rated at 75°C
This always trumps the rating of the wire. Once you land even a 90°C rated wire in a breaker or lug it can only be used at 75°C ampacity tables if that is rating of breaker/lug.
Last edited by danielplace; 11-02-2021 at 11:33 AM.
The cord length has the most to do with. Look at the element in a 20amp glass fuse. It can be that thin/small even out of easily melted material for the very short distance in the reduced section of the fuse link. The attached cords are skinny because they are short.
Reply
Master Welder
Originally Posted by Sberry
Roert42 liked this post
WeldingWeb Artisan
