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Thread: FAIL! Collets 101

  1. #51
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    My threading inserts all have a positive rake on them, and cut really nicely.

    If it tears the steel for me, it's the steel, not the carbide.

    These are the inserts I've been using, I like em, my theory is, if they're sharp enough to thread stainless without rubbing or galling, then they're good enough for regular steel also.

    https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/partial-p...stainless.html

    Do you go straight in with the tool, or do you use the compound at 30 degrees? Someone taught me to use the compound slide for coarser threads, as you keep it cutting one one side only (so cutting forces are low) and on 60 deg thread forms, the compound slide movement at 30 degrees is equal to the thread pitch, ie on a 2mm thread pitch I move the compound slide ~80 thou to get to depth. If that makes sense?

    Oh, and thread files are invaluable for cleaning up rough threads when I do make them I'd highly, highly recommend them if you don't have any!
    Last edited by Munkul; 11-09-2021 at 05:03 AM.
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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  3. #52
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    Oh, and thread files are invaluable for cleaning up rough threads when I do make them I'd highly, highly recommend them if you don't have any!
    They are nice. And he could have just used the thread file originally to clean up the threads. Then threaded the nut on. Then put some weld on top to keep it there. Then cut hay.

    I use laydown inserts on my CNC lathes. We cut thousands of threads in 304 stainless. They work great. But you have to get high enough SFM to make them work right. On a manual lathe Sam is probably not running a thousand RPM and is therefore not getting anywhere near enough SFM to have his grade of carbide work well. Hand ground HSS may well be a better solution for him.

  4. #53
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    No threading today................made the trip to return pipe, and pick up pipe. Tomorrow I'll ask the scrap yard people near here, whether they can do an XRF scan on the pipe. The dealer swore it was weldable, and the exact material they use for their hay trailers....................but..........better safe than sorry. I"ve come to mistrust pipe dealers.

    I did come across an article describing general WP's on various carbon equivalent steels. It stated that medium carbon steel can be welded with a preheat, lo-hy consumables, and no preheat in thinner sections (the pipe wall is .352). Postweld heat treatment is required on sections in the 1"+ range. So, if this isn't the "mild" steel they claim it is, it's still useable if the carbon content is close to .30 .

    Soon as this thing is done, and God Willing it comes out successful,, and safe............I swear to God, I'll never mess with used pipe again for anything other than fencing. I know it's used all the time, but I'm a worrier.

  5. #54
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    My threading inserts all have a positive rake on them, and cut really nicely.

    If it tears the steel for me, it's the steel, not the carbide.

    These are the inserts I've been using, I like em, my theory is, if they're sharp enough to thread stainless without rubbing or galling, then they're good enough for regular steel also.

    https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/partial-p...stainless.html

    Do you go straight in with the tool, or do you use the compound at 30 degrees? Someone taught me to use the compound slide for coarser threads, as you keep it cutting one one side only (so cutting forces are low) and on 60 deg thread forms, the compound slide movement at 30 degrees is equal to the thread pitch, ie on a 2mm thread pitch I move the compound slide ~80 thou to get to depth. If that makes sense?

    Oh, and thread files are invaluable for cleaning up rough threads when I do make them I'd highly, highly recommend them if you don't have any!
    I use the cross slide to cut the relief to the minor diameter, and to remove the bit from the work when running back to the beginning of the thread..........other than that, I don't use it. All my depth of cut is done with the compound.

    I zero the cross slide when I make contact with the work, use it to go to minor diameter, then set the soft stop. I add a little width to the cut to compensate for movement of the compound as the thread progresses to the end. I set the soft stop at the original plunge, with the tiny bit of additional width to the left of this area. Easier to actually do, than explain It works for me I guess.

    Far as depth of cut while threading.................I generally don't look at it. When the thread starts to look like a thread, I mic it, or use a nut to gage it. I really like the blue dye for this. You can see when the uncut metal starts to get smaller on the top of the thread. The dye is good for old eyes

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  7. #55
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Ya know...................................

    I ran across this https://www.amazon.com/Arthur-R-Warn...1JTPN9YA&psc=1

    It looks good, but I am lousy at geometry, and I can't see how it would work in a toolholder that's setup for neutral rake. Seems to me that a form tool has to be perpendicular to the work. I'm thinking that you'd get a distorted shape if you put this in neutral rake toolholder. The face of the triangle would be "narrower" the further away from the tip. I guess it wouldn't take but a few minutes to grind a regular bit with this kinda rake, and see if it works. I just can't see it in my mind's eye.

  8. #56
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    Ya know...................................

    I ran across this https://www.amazon.com/Arthur-R-Warn...1JTPN9YA&psc=1

    It looks good, but I am lousy at geometry, and I can't see how it would work in a toolholder that's setup for neutral rake. Seems to me that a form tool has to be perpendicular to the work. I'm thinking that you'd get a distorted shape if you put this in neutral rake toolholder. The face of the triangle would be "narrower" the further away from the tip. I guess it wouldn't take but a few minutes to grind a regular bit with this kinda rake, and see if it works. I just can't see it in my mind's eye.
    It would be great for a lantern type toolpost where you could adjust the angle. Seems like the relief would be all wrong with a quick change or 4 way post.

  9. #57
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Most threading inserts have a degree of rake on them. the toolholder will have neutral rake.

    As for the deviation caused by rake - come on. They are ground at the 60 degree included angle after the rake is ground, so with respect to a nominal diameter they will be perfect. The difference at very small and very big diameters will be next to absolutely nothing.
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

  10. #58
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    No threading today................made the trip to return pipe, and pick up pipe. Tomorrow I'll ask the scrap yard people near here, whether they can do an XRF scan on the pipe. The dealer swore it was weldable, and the exact material they use for their hay trailers....................but..........better safe than sorry. I"ve come to mistrust pipe dealers.

    I did come across an article describing general WP's on various carbon equivalent steels. It stated that medium carbon steel can be welded with a preheat, lo-hy consumables, and no preheat in thinner sections (the pipe wall is .352). Postweld heat treatment is required on sections in the 1"+ range. So, if this isn't the "mild" steel they claim it is, it's still useable if the carbon content is close to .30 .

    Soon as this thing is done, and God Willing it comes out successful,, and safe............I swear to God, I'll never mess with used pipe again for anything other than fencing. I know it's used all the time, but I'm a worrier.
    Name:  erniefp.png
Views: 219
Size:  13.7 KB Good Gawd,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's come to this.........I'M QUOTING MYSELF

    Further checking into the deal, I found that XRF will detect every element but carbon

    So now I gotta maybe take a sample to a lab over in Broken Arrow to see what the composition is. Which I feel is gonna be pricey Waiting on those folks to contact me. The non ferrous testing dood that does testing for the local scrapyard gave me their number.

    I've also got some feelers out with one of the local universities to see who might do the work on the cuff (teaching example), or other locations in the area that do this sorta thing for a fee. The school can do everything but material analysis........tensile, stress, etc...............but nothing to do with chemistry.

  11. #59
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Probably been 10-12 years but the last time I had Twin city testing do a material analysis I think it cost about $160.00.

  12. #60
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    I'm thinkin' it's
    time to quit

    No need for a metal analysis............Name:  rhino30.jpg
Views: 212
Size:  221.0 KB I didn't see this when I saw the pipe in the yard, or when it was loaded. Frankly, I just wasn't paying attention. Sales dood said it's weldable, and it's what they make their bale trailers from.

    Called today, and the guy swears that they don't preheat this stuff, and their trailers are all over the country......."thousands"

    https://www.eatonsteel.com/4140-p110.html

    https://www.hobartbrothers.com/2018/...w-alloy-steel/

    Guy from Intertek up in Texas just returned a call for a metal analysis quote. Told him it wasn't necessary now, and he agreed that you don't want to weld this stuff.

    I'm so damn sick of being lied to. It's not something I do, and I'm just not really prepared for it when it happens to me.

  13. #61
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by lars66 View Post
    Probably been 10-12 years but the last time I had Twin city testing do a material analysis I think it cost about $160.00.
    That's actually not bad, all things considered. Be worth it for something critical.

  14. #62
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    I gots nobody to blame but myself on this fiasco. The takeway..................don't mess with materials you don't know about, and have no experience with.
    Last edited by farmersammm; 11-10-2021 at 02:26 PM. Reason: added "no'

  15. #63
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    I looked at the particulars on the invoice.....................

    Name:  rhino31.jpg
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Size:  19.1 KB

    Then I was able to find a description of the trailers these people build https://www.gobobpipe.com/redrhino.htm

    The description of the main tube matches what I'm sittin' here with. Hell......................I just dunno.

    I have one of the first trailers of this type built in these parts. It dates back over 20 some years. It was built in Perry, OK by Bale Buggy. I tried calling them just now, and the number's disconnected...........research shows it moved to Choctaw, but I can't find any info from there. Was gonna call them and ask what grade of pipe they're using.

  16. #64
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Looks like the same stuff. Fire up the torch, give it a little pre-heat and see how it goes. Maybe you need some of my magic $400 blue rods... but I'm betting they don't use anything fancier than 7018. What's the worst that can happen? I mean... besides dropping a tractor on your head....
    The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...

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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    Looks like the same stuff. Fire up the torch, give it a little pre-heat and see how it goes. Maybe you need some of my magic $400 blue rods... but I'm betting they don't use anything fancier than 7018. What's the worst that can happen? I mean... besides dropping a tractor on your head....
    I would be surprised if they did more than hard wire mig. Preheat and 7018 works on damn near any mystery metal I have seen. Must be some existing pre-approved procedure for welding the stuff. I highly doubt they are threading the stuff together 🤣

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  19. #66
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    I would be surprised if they did more than hard wire mig. Preheat and 7018 works on damn near any mystery metal I have seen. Must be some existing pre-approved procedure for welding the stuff. I highly doubt they are threading the stuff together ��
    Hell, I just dunno.

  20. #67
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Look at the build.... they are welding round tubing to round tubing, round tubing to square... can't be that complicated.
    The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...

    250 amp Miller DialArc AC/DC Stick
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  22. #68
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Name:  rhino32.jpg
Views: 200
Size:  238.7 KB So, now I got near 2 tons of this crap sittin' the yard..........and it's been cut to fit on the trailer Make it harder to dump it off at auction.

    The crap looks the same as what the trailer is made of.

    Name:  rhino33.jpg
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Size:  243.0 KB Identical diameter........like that amounts to a hill of beans.......

    Name:  rhino34.jpg
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Size:  235.8 KB The wiring access for the tail light, and brake runs, looks to show the same wall thickness.

    Name:  rhino35.jpg
Views: 198
Size:  199.9 KB The welds have taken a pounding for over 20yrs.....................

    Hell............I wish I could see someone actually using this stuff as it's been claimed it's being used. I just can't see welding that high carbon stuff. Although I've seen a few specs that show this stuff could have a minimum .26 carbon content...........but I've also see specs that place it at .30 and above (one spec noted that carbon could be increased to the .5 range if needed for certain applications).

    A36 can run, according to some specs............. .25-.29 . That's awful damn close.

    If it's mill reject, it could have been a problem with the chemistry.............possibly carbon content below minimum.......WTF knows

  23. #69
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    I did have some old bstd do chinups on the rear of the trailer, with his tractor, years, and years ago. Took the bow out by heat straightening, and it didn't do any harm. Of course, I didn't get to melting temp, so there might not have been any real changes in the material.

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  25. #70
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Sam, are you going to butt weld this stuff or is it just going to sit in a saddle on a vertical column? Good chance that 3 hot passes with 7018 will do just fine to hold pipe in a saddle. Butt welding, all bets are off.
    One test you could try would be to take a piece of 3/8" plate about 3" wide and run a good bead along the centerline of the pipe and knock it off pounding toward the weld. If it rips out of the pipe... well, that's not good. If it breaks the weld, it might be just fine to weld.

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  27. #71
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    When in doubt do a test weld. Cut a 2-3" sectioned piece out of the pipe and beat the crap out of it. It's either going to bend or break.

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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    When in doubt do a test weld. Cut a 2-3" sectioned piece out of the pipe and beat the crap out of it. It's either going to bend or break.
    Yep, that too. I was just suggesting a quick test without cutting up pipe he might be returning.

  30. #73
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    If you didn't have the internet and all the warnings you probably would have done as 12V71 posted and be half done your project by now.

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  32. #74
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Sam, are you going to butt weld this stuff or is it just going to sit in a saddle on a vertical column? Good chance that 3 hot passes with 7018 will do just fine to hold pipe in a saddle. Butt welding, all bets are off.
    One test you could try would be to take a piece of 3/8" plate about 3" wide and run a good bead along the centerline of the pipe and knock it off pounding toward the weld. If it rips out of the pipe... well, that's not good. If it breaks the weld, it might be just fine to weld.
    All of the saddles will be T joints (branches) connecting the columns. They're actually the main structural component keeping the frame from folding sideways. They're massively important welds/connections. Especially considering the columns are not secured to a concrete base. Intended to sit on a small concrete pad, but not secured to any kind of meaningful footing (I'm sick of this age thing, I can't even remember the name for a "footing" under a post/column, and I used to pour the damn things)

    It's essentially freestanding. The pads have to be low profile so other equipment can be brought into the work area when the crane is stored somewhere in the yard.

    I put together a bit of info on this particular grade of casing. I'll put it up in another post.

  33. #75
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Name:  p110-1 (1).jpeg
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    This casing is like the Wild West. No real solid specifications.
    P110 is totally without any industry standard specs
    other than a few limits on chemistry.

    Name:  rhino36.jpg
Views: 156
Size:  213.3 KB

    My feeling is..............you start welding on something that's without any restrictions on elemental makeup, add to that a tempered steel, and carbon contents all over the board (no set standards), you're asking for trouble.

    I brought up the possibility of asking some of the welders where she works if they mess with this stuff. She is an exceptionally smart pragmatic woman. Her response.............Babe, this is the oil patch. These guys do anything needed to get the job done. They don't care about whether it's code, or not. It's a get it done environment. Boss says do it, they do it. (I'm paraphrasing her, but you get my drift). There ain't no AWS standards out in the field. In her opinion, these are not the guys to get advice from. Not that they don't know what they're doing............just that they HAVE to do what they're doing. She's been there 25yrs, and has interacted with just about all facets of the business. It's a tough business, and costs make for cutting corners.

    (The references are from various sources I believe to be reliable)

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