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Thread: FAIL! Collets 101

  1. #76
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    I don't believe they're gonna take the stuff back. First off, it's been cut. Second, the guy was a real jerk on the phone, and stressed that "you examined it". And they took pictures of the pipe after it was loaded. These guys are not the folks to deal with I'm afraid. Go Bob is off my list. I'll tell ya one thing..........they got the good ol' boy routine down to a tee.

    I don't care to get into a big fight over this. I'm too damn old. (I'm on my 3rd pack of cigs today.......and I'd cut it down to 1 pack a day). I'm thinking I'll just drop this sht off at the auction yard, put a minimum on it, and go home.

    They have a real sales pitch, these pipe guys. Anything that's not prime............."well, we have no way of knowing what it is without mill certs". Bu((sh!t. Nobody buys inventory without knowing what it is. You know damn well these guys know the grade of pipe they're buying. Forgetting MTR's, all I want to know is the damn grade so I can make a decision. Like I say............this one is on me to some extent. I didn't check the pipe for markings as thoroughly as I should have.

    The other fellow, the one I returned the J55 to, and K'kins company deals with on a regular basis, was up front, and a businessman. Took the pipe back after inspecting it to make sure it was the same stuff he sold, and hadn't been cut. I got all my money back, less the credit card fees he paid when I messed up the check, and had to use a card for additional stuff on the bill. The initial transaction was cash. So, I lost about maybe 5 bucks in credit card fees.

  2. #77
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    I'd do what MJD and 12V71 suggested. I'd cut a slice, do some welding, test it. Beat the crap out of it.

    You're looking into theory far too much!
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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  4. #78
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    I'd do what MJD and 12V71 suggested. I'd cut a slice, do some welding, test it. Beat the crap out of it.

    You're looking into theory far too much!
    If you do make the change to mechanical design, like you're wanting.............you'll be mired in this stuff. It's a headache, and keeps you from sleeping some nights. If your working under an engineer, I suppose it's easier. Everything is predetermined, and all you have to do is roll with it.

    I guess I came at welding from the backside. I needed stuff. Which required designing it. Welding was the means of accomplishing the design. It's always been the secondary part of the equation for me.

    By the time I get to the finishing stage, I'm burned out, and the welding is just a tedious, time consuming, thing. There's no joy in it. The final product is the reward. But, you have to take this with a grain of salt..............I'm 65, and getting tired of a lot of things.

  5. #79
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Sam - what are you building? I don't remember.............................

    Oh yeah - a hoist to work on a tractor engine! If the design is right, making most if not all joints a compression joint, it could be welded with bubblegum (farm code 6013) & still be safe. My bose's wife use to tell him all the time "Don't worry about the mule going blind, just load the wagon!"

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  7. #80
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Well.........for example........... Your new outbuilding (I'm assuming) was probably designed, and the iron fabricated in a shop. Somebody signed off on it at every step of the way. The site work is the culmination of all who came before the final step. The angst is at the beginning, the reward is in the erection ( not intended as a pun). I'd rather be at the end of the process these days, less thinking.

  8. #81
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Yeah, change to a bolt together design. Use sleeves / sockets of weldable material where you need a welded node.

    Look at modular spreader beams. For instance:
    https://www.tandemloc.com/ac25c-series-steel-end-caps
    They are a piece of schedule 80 pipe with a couple of holes drilled in it. And then the ends with the fittings slip over the pipe.

    Or if you really are sick of this, just buy a gantry crane and be done with it. Harbor Freight's crane aint great, but it's done.

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  10. #82
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    I feel you are overthinking this whole crane go backwards reevaluate joint design, gussets , diagonal bracing remember that same casing goes down a hole around a corner threaded together { horizontal drilling } sitting on top of a saddle ? I am with 12v71you couldn’t tear it apart

    Don’t make it so hard you can’t build it

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  12. #83
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Name:  rhino37.jpg
Views: 280
Size:  187.9 KB Took time to make the new plug gage. Gawd............what a thing of beauty 12L14 (the guy did send the right stuff), with my beloved HSS. BIG SMOOCH!! Relaxing time away from the other crap

    Name:  rhino38.jpg
Views: 282
Size:  235.0 KB Grab a load of feed for the gurlz this evening, get K'kins her favorite rotisserie chicken, and get after the nut tomorrow.

    I might not even watch television tonight............just put the plug on the table, and look lovingly at it

  13. #84
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    That is pretty, no doubt.

    Still say build a cradle for that motor and hire a crane. You need to get that thing fixed more than you need to build a tower of pipe.

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  15. #85
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Leogl View Post
    I feel you are overthinking this whole crane go backwards reevaluate joint design, gussets , diagonal bracing remember that same casing goes down a hole around a corner threaded together { horizontal drilling } sitting on top of a saddle ? I am with 12v71you couldn’t tear it apart

    Don’t make it so hard you can’t build it
    An 8" on 8" 90 degree branch tee is going to have almost 36" of weld. Funny story... I put in a 20" temporary gravity line once, 1/4" wall pipe. My thinking was to use very little bevel and a single pass to seal it and be able to break the welds by pulling up against the bottom of the excavator when we removed the stuff. NOT, I bent the first joint and had to cut all the welds with a razor wheel. There was only about 1/16" to 3/32" penetration of the welds.

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  17. #86
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Leogl View Post
    I feel you are overthinking this whole crane go backwards reevaluate joint design, gussets , diagonal bracing remember that same casing goes down a hole around a corner threaded together { horizontal drilling } sitting on top of a saddle ? I am with 12v71you couldnít tear it apart

    Donít make it so hard you canít build it

    I don't know if you've noticed, but he brings new meaning to the words "paralysis by analysis." He does this with everything: everything is a crisis, the cows are gonna starve, gotta make hay, gotta fix the bush hog because gotta make hay because gotta feed cows, gotta fix the truck cause gotta haul hay, on and on and on, sometimes spiced with vague but dire mentions of his ill health. It's all BS, but he'll get his pats on the head and keep on doing it.

  18. #87
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimm View Post
    That is pretty, no doubt.

    Still say build a cradle for that motor and hire a crane. You need to get that thing fixed more than you need to build a tower of pipe.
    He's wrapped up enough money in this to buy a decent cheap boom/crane truck. Couple years back I picked up a mid-80's diesel GMC 7000 ex Goodyear tire truck with a 12,000 lb. IMT crane and a huge hydraulic drive air compressor for $3200. The hydraulic disc brakes kinda sucked but everything else was good.

  19. #88
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    He's wrapped up enough money in this to buy a decent cheap boom/crane truck. Couple years back I picked up a mid-80's diesel GMC 7000 ex Goodyear tire truck with a 12,000 lb. IMT crane and a huge hydraulic drive air compressor for $3200. The hydraulic disc brakes kinda sucked but everything else was good.
    Man.... up here dead trucks sell for $7k at auction. Anything with a running diesel is over $10k.
    The harder you fall, the higher you bounce...

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  20. #89
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    If the truck came out of Cali, it was probably dirt cheap. Lot of diesel trucks aren't CARB compliant anymore. I used to see some killer deals on trucks in that State. I don't know it that's still the deal, but it was seemingly a pretty common thing some years back.

    Probably be a lot of farm equipment going for cheap in the not too distant future. The desert farmers out there gonna run out of water pretty soon. Kinda like the Welfare Ranchers that run livestock on public land...........some things just come to a natural end.

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  22. #90
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Nice nut

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    Well.........for example........... Your new outbuilding (I'm assuming) was probably designed, and the iron fabricated in a shop. Somebody signed off on it at every step of the way. The site work is the culmination of all who came before the final step. The angst is at the beginning, the reward is in the erection ( not intended as a pun). I'd rather be at the end of the process these days, less thinking.
    I don't know if this is aimed at me, or not, but the shoe fits...

    We are in the middle of building a new stock shed on the farm, 13m x 15m with a high roof for modern tractor loaders etc. We needed to squeeze it in between 3 other sheds, so it was a custom design from the start.
    I am a chartered engineer, but i have only rudimentary design experience.
    We arranged and paid for a draftsman to design it, and give us a fabrication package, foundation specs and material list.
    I bought the material along with certs.
    I carried out the fabrication, zero things to be signed off.
    We arranged for foundations to be dug and laid to the design, zero things to be signed off.
    I assembled the portal frame and purlins using our telehandler and a hired cherry picker, with my brother. Zero things to be signed off.
    We got someone else to roof it (for convenience more than anything else)
    Builders have been the main hold up... they're putting up block walls and reinforcement and running drains currently. Once that's done, they'll lay a 6" reinforced concrete floor.
    When all of that is done, we will side sheet it ourselves and finish off gutters, doors etc.
    We will wire it ourselves. This will need inspected for insurance.
    Again, nothing to sign off except the electrics. It's a farm shed so Building Control don't need to inspect it.
    If it goes wrong and the building falls down and hurts someone, then we're all screwed. I'll be up in court.
    BUT
    Why would it fall down? It's been designed properly. We know what we're doing fabrication wise, we do destructive weld tests, I'm both a time served fitter/fabricator. The foundations have been done to spec. The design is overkill, you wouldn't believe the weight of columns and beams and gussets and tie bars. Over 10 ton of steel for this small shed. The bolts are all grade 8.8 (equivalent to grade 5 for you) and again, loads of them. The portal frame is as rigid as I've ever seen any bare portal frame.

    So, using my head, after carefully thinking about it, this shed is unlikely to fall down short of a huge earthquake.

    I sleep like a baby.
    Last edited by Munkul; 11-12-2021 at 04:33 AM.
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

  23. #91
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    Nice nut



    I don't know if this is aimed at me, or not, but the shoe fits...

    We are in the middle of building a new stock shed on the farm, 13m x 15m with a high roof for modern tractor loaders etc. We needed to squeeze it in between 3 other sheds, so it was a custom design from the start.
    I am a chartered engineer, but i have only rudimentary design experience.
    We arranged and paid for a draftsman to design it, and give us a fabrication package, foundation specs and material list.
    I bought the material along with certs.
    I carried out the fabrication, zero things to be signed off.
    We arranged for foundations to be dug and laid to the design, zero things to be signed off.
    I assembled the portal frame and purlins using our telehandler and a hired cherry picker, with my brother. Zero things to be signed off.
    We got someone else to roof it (for convenience more than anything else)
    Builders have been the main hold up... they're putting up block walls and reinforcement and running drains currently. Once that's done, they'll lay a 6" reinforced concrete floor.
    When all of that is done, we will side sheet it ourselves and finish off gutters, doors etc.
    We will wire it ourselves. This will need inspected for insurance.
    Again, nothing to sign off except the electrics. It's a farm shed so Building Control don't need to inspect it.
    If it goes wrong and the building falls down and hurts someone, then we're all screwed. I'll be up in court.
    BUT
    Why would it fall down? It's been designed properly. We know what we're doing fabrication wise, we do destructive weld tests, I'm both a time served fitter/fabricator. The foundations have been done to spec. The design is overkill, you wouldn't believe the weight of columns and beams and gussets and tie bars. Over 10 ton of steel for this small shed. The bolts are all grade 8.8 (equivalent to grade 5 for you) and again, loads of them. The portal frame is as rigid as I've ever seen any bare portal frame.

    So, using my head, after carefully thinking about it, this shed is unlikely to fall down short of a huge earthquake.

    I sleep like a baby.
    That's it in a nutshellName:  tkqe4fh-smiley-two-thumbs-up175028_285604.gif
Views: 256
Size:  1.1 KB Engineered by someone else, and proper material. I'm working around to giving up on doing it on the cheap. Send the sht pipe off to auction, bite the bullet, and get some A500. I suppose it was always headed this direction.........all my stuff usually does. Wait a month or so, and I'll actually MAKE money on the pipe

    Let the idiots recommend crap they MIGHT do themselves, but I go my own way. Do it right. Keyboard types have no skin in the game

    So............my general observation.......to any who might be in the line of fire...........Ya wanna weld on this stuff, be my guest. I ain't doin' it. I prefer being on the sunshine side of the grass.

    What ya do get, is a thought process. Something some people find interesting, or at least something to pizz and moan about. 'faffing around"?? Really! That were a bit harsh(insert low class accent) Ya tea drinkin' Limey

    We're reassessing a concrete pad at this point, although I hate to do it. Damn ground slopes about 1/2" per running foot, or more. Anyways, IIRC, that was about what it came out, when I leveled the lathe. I do not want to pour a level slab out there, much less a troweled finish on the damn thing. Trot across that thing on a wet day, and ya wind up looking up at the sky, while you're waiting for your skull to hit the concrete.

    Massive arboreal trim job on the driveway to clear the truck height, clearing a workable path through the yard for the idiot lorry driver(I used to regularly run a semi up in the yard, but I'm very very good at working in tight spaces), and waiting until sometime in the very dead of Winter when it dries up enough to hold the weight of the truck, or until Summer.

    Anyways it's all coming together in some form or other.

    About to get the brush hog out the door. Unless I find that the cutter mounting flange is bent a few thou........then more faffing around on the lathe to true it up. Hit some steel in the tall grass years ago, and it's always wobbled since. Spinny things like to run true. Got it all torn down, might as well give it the white glove treatment while it's in the shop. I have more fun with that lathe, than a barrel of monkeys. Most relaxing thing a guy can do.

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  25. #92
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Going back to the pipe gantry, your problem from the start was you over thunk it. Now you're still over thinking it, AND it's cost you a load of money.

    Instead of crying about it, you need to know if it's salvagable. No point shying away from welding just because it "might" not be strong enough.

    DO A WELD TEST!
    It's the only way to actually know!
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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  27. #93
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    We're reassessing a concrete pad at this point, although I hate to do it. Damn ground slopes about 1/2" per running foot, or more. Anyways, IIRC, that was about what it came out, when I leveled the lathe. I do not want to pour a level slab out there, much less a troweled finish on the damn thing. Trot across that thing on a wet day, and ya wind up looking up at the sky, while you're waiting for your skull to hit the concrete.
    That sounds like sour grapes. Consciously you're finding unlikely reasons as to why it's a bad idea, subconsciously you just don't want to spend money on concrete because it's not something you're interested in
    Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.

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  29. #94
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Not that it makes a difference but as I said somewhere before I would lean towards the concrete pad idea. So nice to work on compared to slogging in the mud. Pole saw comes to mind regarding trimming out the driveway. Cut from the bed of your trailer or even a scaffold on the trailer to get high enough to clear the cement trucks.
    Be careful-have fun. Life is short.
    ---Meltedmetal

  30. #95
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkul View Post
    That sounds like sour grapes. Consciously you're finding unlikely reasons as to why it's a bad idea, subconsciously you just don't want to spend money on concrete because it's not something you're interested in
    Who would have thought that having a solid, level surface would be a good starting point? Sounds like some dudes I've run across that will spend all available time and money doing something other than a simple job that needed to be done. For the record didn't this cluster flick start out as simply removing a tractor engine? In all honesty a simple concrete pad and a gantry, used forklift or many other simple options would have accomplished this.

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  32. #96
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    Man.... up here dead trucks sell for $7k at auction. Anything with a running diesel is over $10k.
    I just got lucky with that one, a local tire shop had stopped doing service calls for giant off road tires and the truck was just sitting in their warehouse bay. I was in getting tires on one of my trucks and talking with the owner and made him an offer, he jumped on it. I just put it on my account.

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  34. #97
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    That's it in a nutshellName:  tkqe4fh-smiley-two-thumbs-up175028_285604.gif
Views: 256
Size:  1.1 KB

    Let the idiots recommend crap they MIGHT do themselves, but I go my own way. Do it right. Keyboard types have no skin in the game
    A lot of the "Idiots" that made suggestions have a hell of a lot more experience than your internet inquiries. But hey, just drag it out for a couple more years.

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  36. #98
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Name:  rhino39.jpg
Views: 141
Size:  206.6 KB Step drilled to .750 diameter. Started with .500 drill, finished with .750 drill. Small machine, less rigidity.......step drill.

    Name:  rhino40.jpg
Views: 152
Size:  186.9 KB Trammed the boring bar, although not absolutely critical for this step, but might as well do it early.........threading bar has to be dead nuts, so.........................

    Name:  rhino41.jpg
Views: 150
Size:  243.9 KB Bore is done to the minimum minor diameter. Tight fit, and the shaft was threaded with final pitch diameter -.002. Have to compensate.

    Name:  rhino42.jpg
Views: 150
Size:  203.5 KB Ready to boogie. Quick check to make sure the threading bar is trammed correctly, even though the tool post has already been trammed with the boring bar. Had to increase the bore depth because I failed to account for the stickout on the end of the threading bar.......no biggie.

    Name:  rhino43.jpg
Views: 141
Size:  205.0 KB Looks like we gots us a fit During both boring, and threading, operations................spring cuts were used to assure there was no taper either on the plug gage, or internal thread.

  37. #99
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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Name:  rhino44.jpg
Views: 143
Size:  167.1 KB After threading was complete, the nose of the nut had to be machined. Determined the proper angle.

    Name:  rhino45.jpg
Views: 144
Size:  198.9 KB My lathe is marked improperly. The compound angles were screwed up I guess. Not a real big problem. Angle blocks suffice for setting compound angle.

    Name:  rhino46.jpg
Views: 146
Size:  219.6 KB Turned sorta ok. The insert was probably slightly damaged when turning the shaft to size. The interrupted cut was murder on every tool used on it. Consequently, the insert did more rubbing than cutting..................but it was good enough to finish the job

    Name:  rhino47.jpg
Views: 148
Size:  187.8 KB To verify the face diameter after the chamfer was cut, the workpiece was compared to a factory nut.

    Name:  rhino47a.jpg
Views: 147
Size:  213.4 KB Looks allright.

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    Re: FAIL! Collets 101

    Name:  rhino51.jpg
Views: 147
Size:  242.3 KB Next, it's time to mount the rotary table to the mill table. It'll be used as a dividing head. The mounting slots on the rotary table don't match the mill table slots...............................so I'm using a adapter I put together some years back.

    Name:  rhino52.jpg
Views: 143
Size:  233.7 KB Plop the rotary table on, and tram it to the spindle on the mill........AND CHECK FOR RUNOUT ON THE PART.......which was not good. I figure that the last time I used the rotary table, I'd set it different.......or something (shrug) I generally rough center the rotary table under the spindle when using it in the horizontal position, then center the chuck.......................this accounts for the error.

    Name:  rhino53.jpg
Views: 148
Size:  189.5 KB Runout is corrected................

    Name:  rhino54.jpg
Views: 145
Size:  219.7 KB Then the table/part is checked for nod...............all's good

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